More/ larger galaxies

[Redspear]

If anyone is interested in having a go with this, I have a compiled copy of the code that can be tested and a testing save game file in galaxy 8, waiting for a jump into galaxy 9. Let me know and I will PM you the link (I don't want to post up a binary here and get it confused with an official release).

Oooh, yes please

[Commander Talbot]

I have played Pioneer a little (open source clone of Frontier) and really liked the 3D galaxy approach. I don't suppose this would be possible to implement without drastically changing the source code?

[Pleb]

Wow, I'd actually forgotten all about Oolite until I got an email saying someone had replied to this thread! A blast from the past indeed...

@Commander Talbot - No you'd have to make significant changes to the source code to allow this.

[Cholmondely]

A blast from the past indeed...

Any chance of some of the missing images which have faded away over the years?

Where would one find the relevant OXP's to increase the galaxy sizes?
Found this:

For now, I will post up how to enable extra systems. Note that this code will allow you to have an extra 8 galaxies and decide the seed used for galaxy 9, and whether to enable the extra 256 systems (but only for galaxies 9-16). Also they can be turned off. This way the core game is left intact, but there is a way to enable these features through the planetinfo.plist file.

As the code changes are too long to explain on here, I have uploaded the 10 files I have modified in the source to my box.com account. You will need to replace them with the ones currently in the source. Also you will need to add the following to the planetinfo.plist file:

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// Set to yes if you want to enable extra 8 galaxies (default is no):
extra_galaxies_enabled = yes;
// Seed used for galaxy 9 and for subsequent 7 turns to generate galaxies 10-16:
galaxy_9_seed = "177 86 161 69 177 103";
// Set to yes if you want to enable an extra 256 systems for galaxies 9-16: (default is no):
extra_systems_enabled = yes;

There is code in the source that makes sure that if these values are not set they will default to no, so that the core game is not affected.

https://app.box.com/s/acghol1pbiktpsgtic2p

Unsure if this is relevant (not the code but the descriptions of what to do with it):

Okay just as a proof-of-concept, the following instructions made to the source (I used the current 1.79 trunk code) enables 16 galaxies in an OXP'able way, with the option of enabling or disabling this feature:

First open the OOTypes.h file in the src\Core directory, and look for the following code on line 208:

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kOOMaximumGalaxyID				= 7,

And replace it with the following code:

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kOOMaximumGalaxyID				= 15,

Then open the Universe.m file in the src\Core directory and look for the following code, starting on line 7166:

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gnum++;
g0.a = rotate_byte_left(g0.a);
g0.b = rotate_byte_left(g0.b);
g0.c = rotate_byte_left(g0.c);
g0.d = rotate_byte_left(g0.d);
g0.e = rotate_byte_left(g0.e);
g0.f = rotate_byte_left(g0.f);

And replace it with the following code:

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gnum++;
if (gnum == 8)
{
	Random_Seed new_galaxy_seed;
	new_galaxy_seed = RandomSeedFromString([planetInfo oo_stringForKey:@"galaxy_9_seed"]);
	g0.a = new_galaxy_seed.a;
	g0.b = new_galaxy_seed.b;
	g0.c = new_galaxy_seed.c;
	g0.d = new_galaxy_seed.d;
	g0.e = new_galaxy_seed.e;
	g0.f = new_galaxy_seed.f;
}
else
{
	g0.a = rotate_byte_left(g0.a);
	g0.b = rotate_byte_left(g0.b);
	g0.c = rotate_byte_left(g0.c);
	g0.d = rotate_byte_left(g0.d);
	g0.e = rotate_byte_left(g0.e);
	g0.f = rotate_byte_left(g0.f);
}
if (gnum == 0)
{
	g0.a = 74;
	g0.b = 90;
	g0.c = 72;
	g0.d = 2;
	g0.e = 83;
	g0.f = 183;
}

Then go to line 7190 in the same file and you will see the same code. Replace it with the code above as before.

Now open up the PlayerEntity.m file in the src\Core\Entities directory and look for the following code, starting on line 6213:

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galaxy_number++;
galaxy_number &= 7;

galaxy_seed.a = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.a);
galaxy_seed.b = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.b);
galaxy_seed.c = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.c);
galaxy_seed.d = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.d);
galaxy_seed.e = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.e);
galaxy_seed.f = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.f);

And replace it with the following code:

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galaxy_number++;
	
// check if planetinfo.plist has more than 8 galaxies enabled:
BOOL extra_galaxies = ([[UNIVERSE planetInfo] oo_boolForKey:@"extra_galaxies_enabled"]);
if (extra_galaxies)
{
	// make sure galaxy number goes back to 0 (galaxy 1):
	if (galaxy_number > 15)
	{
		galaxy_number = 0;
	}

	// when jumping to galaxy 9 generate new galaxy seed to generate 8 new galaxies:
	if (galaxy_number == 8)
	{
		Random_Seed new_galaxy_seed;
		new_galaxy_seed = RandomSeedFromString([[UNIVERSE planetInfo] oo_stringForKey:@"galaxy_9_seed"]);
		galaxy_seed.a = new_galaxy_seed.a;
		galaxy_seed.b = new_galaxy_seed.b;
		galaxy_seed.c = new_galaxy_seed.c;
		galaxy_seed.d = new_galaxy_seed.d;
		galaxy_seed.e = new_galaxy_seed.e;
		galaxy_seed.f = new_galaxy_seed.f;
	}
	else
	{
		galaxy_seed.a = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.a);
		galaxy_seed.b = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.b);
		galaxy_seed.c = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.c);
		galaxy_seed.d = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.d);
		galaxy_seed.e = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.e);
		galaxy_seed.f = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.f);
	}

	// when back at galaxy 1 reset galaxy seed to original seed:
	if (galaxy_number == 0)
	{
		galaxy_seed.a = 74;
		galaxy_seed.b = 90;
		galaxy_seed.c = 72;
		galaxy_seed.d = 2;
		galaxy_seed.e = 83;
		galaxy_seed.f = 183;
	}
}
else
{
	// if extra galaxies are not enabled ensure player can only visit the original 8 galaxies:
	galaxy_number &= 7;

	galaxy_seed.a = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.a);
	galaxy_seed.b = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.b);
	galaxy_seed.c = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.c);
	galaxy_seed.d = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.d);
	galaxy_seed.e = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.e);
	galaxy_seed.f = rotate_byte_left(galaxy_seed.f);
}

Now finally, open up the planetinfo.plist file in the Resources\Config directory and add the following two lines of code:

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// Set to yes if you want to enable extra 8 galaxies:
extra_galaxies_enabled = yes;
// Seed used for galaxy 9 and for subsequent 7 turns to generate galaxies 10-16:
galaxy_9_seed = "177 86 161 69 177 103";

These two functions added to the planetinfo.plist file will now allow you to either enable to disable the extra galaxies, and define the seed used for galaxy 9.

Surprisly not. I've used Ian Bell's Text Elite to generate 1024 systems without changing the base code. The  Random Number Generator can create up to 32768 systems per galaxy (with caveats).

Ah, so for my next trick...

And also found this:

Okay I've been playing around with this idea a bit lately. Haven't got anywhere with a new naming scheme yet, but I have improved the whole extra/larger galaxies idea that was originally thought of.

Essentially now what I have are the following options, added into planetinfo.plist:

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	// Choose whether to enable an extra 8 galaxies (yes/no - default is no):
	extra_galaxies_enabled = yes;
	// Uncomment to specify a starting galaxy seed for galaxy 9 (if not specified a default one will be used):
	extra_galaxy_starting_seed = "17 245 0 234 119 178";
	
	// Settings for Galaxy 9:
	"galaxy_8_settings" =
	{
		// Add an extra 256 systems and expand size of galaxy (yes/no - default is no):
		extra_systems = yes;
		// Enable whether the entire galaxy is uninhabited (yes/no - default is no):
		uninhabited_galaxy = no;
		// Uncomment to specify a galaxy seed for this galaxy (if not specified the previous one will be rolled over to generate a new one):
		//galaxy_seed = "56 176 45 69 212 150";
	};

So as you can see this gives the OXP/OXZ writer the choice to create 8 new galaxies, and to specify either a starting seed or individual seeds for each galaxy. Also you can specify whether a galaxy has extra systems (I have set this as 512 systems as due to the new improved long range chart, anything more than 512 now creates major memory problems) with an enlarged galaxy chart area. Also you can specify whether a galaxy is uninhabited. Only issue with this is that you create a completely blank galaxy with no ships or stations. However this would be a starting point for an exploration OXP/OXZ.

Some screenshots are below. First is the short range chart. Note, although it looks like the fuel is below 7 light years, I have changed how the game determines the distances so even though the green circle is smaller it is actually 7 light years:



Second is the long range chart. As you can see the galaxy is more crowded but not too crowded. There are also still islands of 'unreachable' systems:



Next is the short range chart, but with an uninhabited galaxy. Note that the system names have been changed to just be a blank designation of a letter and some numbers:



And lastly, this is how an uninhabited system looks on the system info screen:



If anyone is interested in having a go with this, I have a compiled copy of the code that can be tested and a testing save game file in galaxy 8, waiting for a jump into galaxy 9. Let me know and I will PM you the link (I don't want to post up a binary here and get it confused with an official release).

[Pleb]

This doesn't work quite like this anymore I believe. It used to be that Oolite randomly generated the 8 galaxies (or galactic sectors, depending on how you want to think about it) based on a seed, which is why the 8 galaxies always generated the same way. Now, the game has the 8 galaxies information all stored in the planetinfo.plist file instead.

I did at one point make a C# application that generated new galaxies as a planetinfo.plist file, and then started to go into some of the things that cim did with SOTL (factions, multi-planet systems, unexplored/uninhabited systems, etc...). But not sure I still have the code for this, and I had completely forgotten about it until I saw this again!

[Cholmondely]

This doesn't work quite like this anymore I believe. It used to be that Oolite randomly generated the 8 galaxies (or galactic sectors, depending on how you want to think about it) based on a seed, which is why the 8 galaxies always generated the same way. Now, the game has the 8 galaxies information all stored in the planetinfo.plist file instead.

I did at one point make a C# application that generated new galaxies as a planetinfo.plist file, and then started to go into some of the things that cim did with SOTL (factions, multi-planet systems, unexplored/uninhabited systems, etc...). But not sure I still have the code for this, and I had completely forgotten about it until I saw this again!

Thank you for getting back to me!

I'd be happy (with my virtually inexistent programming skills but a reasonable amount of imagination) to help in any way I can.

Are there any screen shots still around? I'd like to bung them on our Wiki and use them for the new Geography & Galaxy Seeds pages.

[Pleb]

Thank you for getting back to me!

I'd be happy (with my virtually inexistent programming skills but a reasonable amount of imagination) to help in any way I can.

Are there any screen shots still around? I'd like to bung them on our Wiki and use them for the new Geography & Galaxy Seeds pages.

I'm afraid I haven't got any screenshots, from either the stuff I did way back in the day with seeds or the stuff I did a few years ago involving a planetinfo.plist generator. It was more for more own entertainment really, as although there had been some minor interest over the years in introducing other galaxies there hasn't seemed to be a huge amount of interest in overhauling or a full conversion mod of Oolite (like SOTL).

Writing a generator to make a new galaxy or multiple galaxies is the easy part, even creating uninhabited and multiplanet systems isn't hard. It's what to do with that stuff that had me stumped! I didn't just want it to be more of the same and I'd kind of burned myself out a bit just getting the generator working exactly how I wanted it. Also (unless there's been a change implemented that I was unaware of) there can only ever be 256 systems in a galaxy and hyperdrive can always travel up to 7 light years. It would be great to have larger maps and smaller (or even larger if the map was really big) travel distances for hyperdrives, but this is something that requires changing in the source code I believe, it cannot be modded in. My original experiments with this involved me messing with the source, but to make a mod that anyone could install (like SOTL that is essentially a total conversion that runs separately from the rest of Oolite) you have to work within the constraints of Oolite.

Don't get me wrong, I love Oolite and always will! I just don't have the creativity to think of something worthwhile to do with new galaxies, even though I really enjoyed (and still do) making them!

[Cholmondely]

Thank you for getting back to me!

I'd be happy (with my virtually inexistent programming skills but a reasonable amount of imagination) to help in any way I can.

Are there any screen shots still around? I'd like to bung them on our Wiki and use them for the new Geography & Galaxy Seeds pages.

I'm afraid I haven't got any screenshots, from either the stuff I did way back in the day with seeds or the stuff I did a few years ago involving a planetinfo.plist generator. It was more for more own entertainment really, as although there had been some minor interest over the years in introducing other galaxies there hasn't seemed to be a huge amount of interest in overhauling or a full conversion mod of Oolite (like SOTL).

Writing a generator to make a new galaxy or multiple galaxies is the easy part, even creating uninhabited and multiplanet systems isn't hard. It's what to do with that stuff that had me stumped! I didn't just want it to be more of the same and I'd kind of burned myself out a bit just getting the generator working exactly how I wanted it. Also (unless there's been a change implemented that I was unaware of) there can only ever be 256 systems in a galaxy and hyperdrive can always travel up to 7 light years. It would be great to have larger maps and smaller (or even larger if the map was really big) travel distances for hyperdrives, but this is something that requires changing in the source code I believe, it cannot be modded in. My original experiments with this involved me messing with the source, but to make a mod that anyone could install (like SOTL that is essentially a total conversion that runs separately from the rest of Oolite) you have to work within the constraints of Oolite.

Don't get me wrong, I love Oolite and always will! I just don't have the creativity to think of something worthwhile to do with new galaxies, even though I really enjoyed (and still do) making them!

I'd like to generate something along the lines of SOTL, with Empires and Alliances there on the map of the galaxy. As Montana05 and I were discussing in the Galactic Navy Strikes Back thread, there really should be more warfare going on. One could rejig the galaxies we've got, but with the amount of work involved, perhaps a new map would make more sense...

[Pleb]

I'd like to generate something along the lines of SOTL, with Empires and Alliances there on the map of the galaxy. As Montana05 and I were discussing in the Galactic Navy Strikes Back thread, there really should be more warfare going on. One could rejig the galaxies we've got, but with the amount of work involved, perhaps a new map would make more sense...

Well this was exactly my line of thinking as well to be honest! I love the idea of having more combat and factions vs other factions going on. DM me and let me know the sort of thing you're thinking of and I will see what I can come up with in regards to a new galactic sector/galaxy. Before I had it so that you had 2 to 4 factions on a map, and they had a defined territory on the map (using the starlane recolor feature) and then the systems in between were uninhabited (except for pirates, other explorers and traders travelling from one factions territory to another). The core systems were more developed (higher tech level, more police) and then the outer systems were less so (lower tech level, less police). Although I don't have access to this stuff anymore it wouldnt take long to recreate it.

[Redspear]

Before I had it so that you had 2 to 4 factions on a map, and they had a defined territory on the map (using the starlane recolor feature) and then the systems in between were uninhabited (except for pirates, other explorers and traders travelling from one factions territory to another).

FWIW, I've got some ideas around gameplay options for larger galaxies that could relate to your 'uninhabited' zones.
From the immediately obvious, such as lack of station facilities and especially fuel, to the somewhat less so, such as inhabitant/species and cargo sensitive police.

I seem to have a talent for not explaining myself adequately but imagine various self interested police forces. Arguably that's no different in game to what we already have but if they obviously reacted with bias to a system's needs/allegiances then it could be different.
E.g. we really need computers for our war effort so we'll treat fugitives with a hold full as offenders and offenders similarly stocked as clean (with an explanatory flavour comm perhaps for good measure).

All oxp-able but potentially much less intrusive in a larger galaxy (or, I suppose, an additional one).

If you do work out how to increase the galaxy size (and include complimentary adjustments) for the latest version of oolite then please do tell - I'd love to have a play with it myself.

[Pleb]

FWIW, I've got some ideas around gameplay options for larger galaxies that could relate to your 'uninhabited' zones.
From the immediately obvious, such as lack of station facilities and especially fuel, to the somewhat less so, such as inhabitant/species and cargo sensitive police.

I seem to have a talent for not explaining myself adequately but imagine various self interested police forces. Arguably that's no different in game to what we already have but if they obviously reacted with bias to a system's needs/allegiances then it could be different.
E.g. we really need computers for our war effort so we'll treat fugitives with a hold full as offenders and offenders similarly stocked as clean (with an explanatory flavour comm perhaps for good measure).

All oxp-able but potentially much less intrusive in a larger galaxy (or, I suppose, an additional one).

If you do work out how to increase the galaxy size (and include complimentary adjustments) for the latest version of oolite then please do tell - I'd love to have a play with it myself.

Actually this was just using a standard galaxy size I'm afraid! The only time I've ever been able to create larger galaxies with more than 256 systems was by modifying the source code (which I can't remember if was documented in this was in this thread or an older one, it was quite a few years ago now!). As I said, unless there's been a change in the code for Oolite to allow more than 256 system (and I'm certain there hasn't, but admittedly I haven't tried recently lol), and/or change the maximum allowed jump distance, I don't think it's possible with the current code architecture, not unless you started a fork on Github and created a new game based upon the existing code. This was why I abandoned this project all those years ago, as I didn't want to split off from the main game just for the sake of adding new systems/increasing the galaxy size. Mainly, because it was just essentially adding more of the same into the game.

I've begun work on my galaxy generator again as I did unfortunately lose the code. I should have something to show in a few days, as at present it's pretty basic and just generates a random new galaxy - albeit one that is completely random, so you could have loads of tech level 13 worlds or none at all!

[Cholmondely]

I've begun work on my galaxy generator again as I did unfortunately lose the code. I should have something to show in a few days, as at present it's pretty basic and just generates a random new galaxy - albeit one that is completely random, so you could have loads of tech level 13 worlds or none at all!

Super news... Thank you!

[Redspear]

Actually this was just using a standard galaxy size I'm afraid!

Not to worry, I might have a go myself at some point.

Mainly, because it was just essentially adding more of the same into the game.

Well that's the key issue of course.
What is does add is a new theatre rather than a new play.

So if I can stick with that analogy then there's the potential to show a new play in a new theatre without disturbing the existing ones (e.g. a new galactic sector).

There's also the potential to expand existing plays by building a larger stage (e.g. larger galactic sectors).

Such changes would only add a framework for oxps to build gameplay upon. With 8 sectors already, the larger sector change would be the more fundamental and also the most enabling in that regard and so that's why it interests me more.

So I think larger/more numerous galaxies/sectors add potential rather than results. OXPs however are born from potential.

To anyone: 'Build me a larger theatre and I'll build you a new play! (...er, slowly and perhaps not to your personal taste )'

[Pleb]

Not to worry, I might have a go myself at some point.

I can make a larger galaxy, that's not a problem. The problem is that it involves messing with the source code, so you'd have a separate version/binary to that of the main game. The issue there is that any new updates to Oolite would require you constantly having to mess with the source of your 'larger galaxy version' to keep up with the changes, which could get messy!

Well that's the key issue of course.
What is does add is a new theatre rather than a new play.

So if I can stick with that analogy then there's the potential to show a new play in a new theatre without disturbing the existing ones (e.g. a new galactic sector).

There's also the potential to expand existing plays by building a larger stage (e.g. larger galactic sectors).

Such changes would only add a framework for oxps to build gameplay upon. With 8 sectors already, the larger sector change would be the more fundamental and also the most enabling in that regard and so that's why it interests me more.

So I think larger/more numerous galaxies/sectors add potential rather than results. OXPs however are born from potential.

To anyone: 'Build me a larger theatre and I'll build you a new play! (...er, slowly and perhaps not to your personal taste )'

So basically, with my galaxy generator you can generate new galaxies with new systems. However because this is running on an unmodified (no changes to the source) Oolite, you would still only be able to have 256 systems and 8 galaxies, using the same 256x256 coordinate system. Using features in Oolite's scenarios, you can have it so it runs completely separate from the rest of Oolite, so you wouldn't have to have a separate installation of it.

[Cholmondely]

Mainly, because it was just essentially adding more of the same into the game.

Well that's the key issue of course.
What is does add is a new theatre rather than a new play.

So if I can stick with that analogy then there's the potential to show a new play in a new theatre without disturbing the existing ones (e.g. a new galactic sector).

There's also the potential to expand existing plays by building a larger stage (e.g. larger galactic sectors).

Such changes would only add a framework for oxps to build gameplay upon. With 8 sectors already, the larger sector change would be the more fundamental and also the most enabling in that regard and so that's why it interests me more.

So I think larger/more numerous galaxies/sectors add potential rather than results. OXPs however are born from potential.

To anyone: 'Build me a larger theatre and I'll build you a new play! (...er, slowly and perhaps not to your personal taste )'

My thinking is more along the lines of a new act in the play. I want a galaxy with small empires at war and uninhabited stars. Maybe even unmapped stars too...
But I don't want to hack the Octant to death in order to get it. There is a massive amount of Lore and OXPs which support the Octant which it would be just silly to throw in the rubbish bin. But a 9th galaxy which comes close enough to galactic jump to is another matter. So a 9th galaxy (maybe accessible from Ascension/Sori and out to the east of Galaxy 1) might be a way to manage it.

Cim generated a logic for what we find in game. Apart from Disembodied's issue with similarities of the species, his logic seems to work.

The Colonials entered the area now known as Chart 2 from the north of the Tezaeded system, in around 830KD. Their research of witchspace drives had by then progressed to the stage where viable colony vessels could be transported, and the rich mineral wealth of Tezaeded and the superb environment of nearby Onatbeza were ideal for them. Several million colonists made the journey across hundreds of light years to begin the process, as scout ships continued to explore the remainder of the chart. The exact size of the Colonial civilisation at this time is not known, though it is believed to have explored a volume of space considerably larger than the entirety of Cooperative space, and to have approaching a hundred colonies in various directions from its homeworld.

In around 920KD, the single linking system between Tezaeded and the remainder of Colonial space drifted outside the 7LY limit of witchspace drives. Its physical distance as measured by planetary sensors remained under the limit, however. The reasons for this discrepancy are still not well understood, and as the system has itself moved over time – and is now unambiguously out of range – perhaps will never be known. The result was that the hundred million colonists were now cut off from their homeworld.

From Cim's Ship's Manual in his Ship's Library oxp, copied onto http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/History

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Issues:

1) Generating the "geography" of the new galaxy

and then either
2) Populating it with empires/unpopulated systems etc
3) Generating the wars and things... and things for the players to do with wars going on...
4) Arranging a way to "buy maps" at the first system arrived at and then buy better ones as one moves around
5) Interesting differences in ships (use the Rx shipset?), orbital stations, equipment technology (no more EEU's with copper-coloured tops!) etc

or
2) Populate it with unpopulated systems and a mere handful of low TL settled systems
3) Work out how to fix things/maintain the ships (what happens when you run out of repairing bottery?)
4) Real exploration with Here be Dragons and special equipment analysing what is within 7ly - maybe adapt SOTL exploration or just add to it
5) Possible Thargoid invasions/system settling...

And 6) where does one leave the Octant from - and to where in the Octant does one return?

If we can develop something halfways decent along these lines, it can then be expanded/improved upon...