Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

[hiran]

The oxps/oxzs deserve a place on the wiki of course, both for clarity and for 'advertising'.

But does the vanilla game even need a wiki?

Yes, the vanilla game deserves a wiki.

The material in the world descriptions, is, without oxp's, irrelevant. The descriptions of ships etc is all in the original Elite Manual. There are just a few new pieces of equipment (a_c_'s ANA, STE etc) and that's pretty much it.

The oxp's on the other hand just get a brief teaser in the Expansions Manager, with whatever clues the author has crafted for the in-game F3/F4 pages. Without the wiki, there is little relevant information, except for those individuals who know how to break the OXZ open and look at the ReadMe - assuming that the author has bothered to say anything much. ...and looking for information here on the BB about them is often a pain.

We need to get rid of those all time references to O'elite. If you insist on that, the user base is absolutely limited to those that know the original game. Without fresh minds, insights or development beyond the old testament the game and the community around it are doomed.

Oh - Hiran - do the Vanilla game stats in your database come from the vanilla game code or from OXPs?

Actually at some stage I started downloading Oolite and checking for equipment and ships, too. So from my scanner's perspective, Oolite is just treated like one of the other 684 expansions. You can see evidence where "Oolite 1.90" pops up in the Index_of_artefacts, or when looking at the warnings telling that the standard ships are getting replaced by OXPs. If you open the zip file I provide you find the 'usual' descriptions for ships and equipment, but they claim to originate from Oolite 1.90.

So to answer your question: The database I create is fed by BOTH vanilla game and OXPs.

As a next development step I intend to scan the 3D model data and feed ship dimensions as well.

[cbr]

I know sometimes a thread 'gets sidetracked' but I enjoyed the mind experiment the OP started, especially with datatables and visualisation ( personal opinion or not )...

[hiran]

It highlights the absurdity of the Cobra MkIII scooping up Thargons (unless one is flying backwards, maybe...).

The scoop is unlike a simple spoon a more or less smart and delicate devide that identifies the to be scooped object's appearance and then follows a well-thought through plan to apply some nifty precision moves to fold that object into a scooopable size.

That way even objects appearing to be bigger than the scooping ship can be scooped and transported.

[Redspear]

I know sometimes a thread 'gets sidetracked' but I enjoyed the mind experiment the OP started, especially with datatables and visualisation ( personal opinion or not )...

Well, while I slowly gather more volumetric data, here's something to think about...

The relative sizes (according to my system) of an anaconda with 150, 250 & 750TC respectively.




Because of the way volume scales, big ships don't need to get that much bigger in order to take on significantly more cargo.

Bear in mind that any significant increase in the size of the anaconda or boa necessitates an in crease in the side of the docking area. However, we can see that it wouln't have to be very much bigger to acommodate th 250TC version. Different story for the 750TC one I suspect.

[Cholmondely]

I know sometimes a thread 'gets sidetracked' but I enjoyed the mind experiment the OP started, especially with datatables and visualisation ( personal opinion or not )...

Well, while I slowly gather more volumetric data, here's something to think about...

The relative sizes (according to my system) of an anaconda with 150, 250 & 750TC respectively.




Because of the way volume scales, big ships don't need to get that much bigger in order to take on significantly more cargo.

Bear in mind that any significant increase in the size of the anaconda or boa necessitates an in crease in the side of the docking area. However, we can see that it wouln't have to be very much bigger to acommodate th 250TC version. Different story for the 750TC one I suspect.

Umm... I don't see why we can't have more external docking to stations rather than needing to fly inside them. Nuit allowed for it, and possibly one other. All the other stations and dockables seem to feature internal docking only.

[Cholmondely]

Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

I'd not realised, but having worked on your New Lasers wiki page, I now accept that my affectations for alliterations pale into utter insignificance when contrasted with yours for acronyms.

[Redspear]

I'd not realised, but having worked on your New Lasers wiki page, I now accept that my affectations for alliterations pale into utter insignificance when contrasted with yours for acronyms.

Could Oppose But Better Leave Else Rendered Superfluous

[Cody]

<sniggers>

[Redspear]

The relative sizes (according to my system)...

So, a little more on that.

Using data from the elite flight training manual (mostly from ship description and trying to iron out inconsistencies), size is a sum of the following values:

• Maximum crew
• Cargo capacity
• Hull stress factor (HSF)
• Maximum velocity (MV)
• Hyperspace capabilty

The first two have aleready been explained (just add them up) but the next two are slightly more complicated, adding a bonus or penalty depending on their values. Note that this is uniform to all ships when one might expect larger ships to gain more size to acheve any of these things. However, because of the way volume scales up the effect is likely to be negligable if (as in the elite manual) the larger ships remain relatively slow. So the results are more serviceable rather than strictly accurate:

HSF * _____ Energy Banks _______ Size Modifier ______ Oolite Example _____ Elite Example (w. this system)

B ___________ 1 __________________ -2 ____________ adder, worm ____________ krait, mamba
C __________ 1.5 _________________ -1 _________________??? _______________ sidewinder, viper
J ___________ 2 __________________ 0 ____________ cobra mk I, fdl __________ cobra mk I, fdl
K ___________ 3 __________________+1 __________ moray, sidewinder _______ adder, transporter
M ___________ 4 _________________ +2 ____________ cobra mk III _____________ cobra mk III
T ___________ 5 _________________ +3 ______________ asp mk II _______________ asp mk II
Y ___________ 7 _________________ +5 __________ python, anaconda ____________ python
Z ___________ 9 _________________ +10 ________________??? __________________ anaconda

* how to find the relevant letter has been explained upthread I believe but will be spelled out for each ship in an upcoming data sheet.


MV * ___________ Size Modifier

0.05 _____________ -3
0.1 ______________ -2
0.15 _____________ -1
0.2 ______________ 0 (elite thargoid)
0.25 _____________ +1 (elite moray)
0.3 ______________ +2 (elite cobra mk III & oolite moray)
0.35 _____________ +3 (oolite cobra mk III)
0.4 ______________ +5
0.45 ____________ +10 (where I'd put the v. interceptor or, if being more faithful, the constrictor)

* choose closest value


Meanwhile for hyperdrives just add 2 in the presence of one. And that is it.

As for curve factor, it made more sense to me if I factored that one in the other way around: i.e. size is the major determinant of CF with a bit of variance within each size category (should make more sense with the data sheet).

[Cholmondely]

The relative sizes (according to my system)...

So, a little more on that.

Using data from the elite flight training manual (mostly from ship description and trying to iron out inconsistencies), size is a sum of the following values:

• Maximum crew
• Cargo capacity
• Hull stress factor (HSF)
• Maximum velocity (MV)
• Hyperspace capabilty

The first two have aleready been explained (just add them up) but the next two are slightly more complicated, adding a bonus or penalty depending on their values. Note that this is uniform to all ships when one might expect larger ships to gain more size to acheve any of these things. However, because of the way volume scales up the effect is likely to be negligable if (as in the elite manual) the larger ships remain relatively slow. So the results are more serviceable rather than strictly accurate:

HSF * _____ Energy Banks _______ Size Modifier ______ Oolite Example _____ Elite Example (w. this system)

B ___________ 1 __________________ -2 ____________ adder, worm ____________ krait, mamba
C __________ 1.5 _________________ -1 _________________??? _______________ sidewinder, viper
J ___________ 2 __________________ 0 ____________ cobra mk I, fdl __________ cobra mk I, fdl
K ___________ 3 __________________+1 __________ moray, sidewinder _______ adder, transporter
M ___________ 4 _________________ +2 ____________ cobra mk III _____________ cobra mk III
T ___________ 5 _________________ +3 ______________ asp mk II _______________ asp mk II
Y ___________ 7 _________________ +5 __________ python, anaconda ____________ python
Z ___________ 9 _________________ +10 ________________??? __________________ anaconda

* how to find the relevant letter has been explained upthread I believe but will be spelled out for each ship in an upcoming data sheet.


MV * ___________ Size Modifier

0.05 _____________ -3
0.1 ______________ -2
0.15 _____________ -1
0.2 ______________ 0 (elite thargoid)
0.25 _____________ +1 (elite moray)
0.3 ______________ +2 (elite cobra mk III & oolite moray)
0.35 _____________ +3 (oolite cobra mk III)
0.4 ______________ +5
0.45 ____________ +10 (where I'd put the v. interceptor or, if being more faithful, the constrictor)

* choose closest value


Meanwhile for hyperdrives just add 2 in the presence of one. And that is it.

As for curve factor, it made more sense to me if I factored that one in the other way around: i.e. size is the major determinant of CF with a bit of variance within each size category (should make more sense with the data sheet).

Just thinking about the hyperspace bit. Two things involved - the engine, and the fuel storage.

The fan literature implies that the fuel can be very dangerous. And the oxp's for extra fuel tank take up a lot of space (except for Smiv's - which places small tanks in various places throughout the ship where there is some empty space).

Fuel Tank: one-use only tank holding 3ly. Mounts in Missile Bay. (Ramirez 2007)
Internal Fuel Tank: one-use only tank holding 5ly. Mounts in Cargo Bay (takes up 5t storage). (Stranger 2018)
Extra Fuel Tanks: reusable tanks: (1ly) or (3ly). Refillable at main orbital stations (extra cost). (Smivs 2018)
Duplex Fuel Tank: reusable tank: (3ly). Mounts in Cargo Bay (takes up 8t storage). Refillable by eg Sun skimming. (Timer 2013)

It would not seem inconsistent to have 7ly of fuel taking up 7TC - and the engine also having bulk to "protect" the fuel being used.

[Redspear]

Just thinking about the hyperspace bit. Two things involved - the engine, and the fuel storage.

The fan literature implies that the fuel can be very dangerous. And the oxp's for extra fuel tank take up a lot of space (except for Smiv's - which places small tanks in various places throughout the ship where there is some empty space).

Fuel Tank: one-use only tank holding 3ly. Mounts in Missile Bay. (Ramirez 2007)
Internal Fuel Tank: one-use only tank holding 5ly. Mounts in Cargo Bay (takes up 5t storage). (Stranger 2018)
Extra Fuel Tanks: reusable tanks: (1ly) or (3ly). Refillable at main orbital stations (extra cost). (Smivs 2018)
Duplex Fuel Tank: reusable tank: (3ly). Mounts in Cargo Bay (takes up 8t storage). Refillable by eg Sun skimming. (Timer 2013)

It would not seem inconsistent to have 7ly of fuel taking up 7TC - and the engine also having bulk to "protect" the fuel being used.

Good points but...

I'm restricting myself to primary elite sources plus some elements of the core oolite game itself - it is a translation after all and so I need to account for pitch, roll, shield boosters, fuel injectors etc.

Speaking of which... Can ships without a hyperdrive occasionally have injectors? (almost certain the answer is yes)

If that's true then they would have a fuel tank, right? I believe the source code always sets that tank size at 7LY (because I've experimented with changing it).

So, even if I were to include all of the above into my calculations then all ships would likely need that fuel space.

How can I justify not adding say 7TC then?

Firstly, consider that the cargo cost to installing the extra fuel is likely to have been chosen as a penalty to balance the enormous usefulness of that extra fuel and not necessarily to equate to the space that it takes up.

If I did want to go down the latter route then one could argue that it's not just the fuel but also a second tank plus adequate plumbing provision to connect it to the primary tank/injectors/witchdrive/engines (especially with that duplex tank that 'mounts from the cargo bay')

Then there's the quirium factor to add into the (volatile mix) - just how much protection will that stuff need, especially if you're mounting it externally!?

Therefore 1LY < 1TC is also a quite reasonable assumption for an internal, primary fuel tank.

If each ship has at least 1 crew and we've established that 1TC has room to seat 10 people then that would be a big old cockpit if you were in a fighter, small if you were in a freighter but just right for an escape pod. So on some level that 1TC for the first crew member assumes space for an escape pod as well as core pilot instrumentation etc.

Still seems a bit big for one though wouldn't you say? And the idea that docking computers would require a similar space that could seat 10 also seem extraordinarily generous for what could arguably be just a piece of software... I'm well aware that there are numerous things not being bean counted, including fuel, that I'm prepared to assume will be absorbed within this extra 'crew space' of which there is 'quite a bit'.

Does/should moving an anaconda through witch space require more than to move an adder? Perhaps but then how much? I don't need to work this out (yippee!) because I know full well that the biggest ships have the largest crew and so my simple system will grant them proportionally more slack.

Now as for what I'm going to do with the large cargo bay, well that's another matter...

[Cody]

How big is the ship's safe (which joins the pilot in the escape pod)? It can hold up to 499kg of metal (plus parcels).

Re extra fuel tanks: I only allow myself half a light's worth, built into the main tank as a reserve.

[Redspear]

How big is the ship's safe (which joins the pilot in the escape pod)? It can hold up to 499kg of metal (plus parcels).

If we 'know' that the escape pod occupied 1TC of space and that same space equates to seating for ten then the question could be rephrased as how many seats would you need to throw out?

For a bank vault possibly all of them but for 500 kg possibly only one, maybe four if you're going all out on the protection.

Remember, even if ITC turns out to be slightly stingy for a cockpit then I'm likely getting it back elsewhere, especially in vessels with more than one crew.

What I may need to reconsider however, is that negative modiers for hull strength and speed may be much less appropriate than positive ones and so maybe the scales should have +0 as their lowest modifier rather than -3.

[Redspear]

Updates:

• Factored in the volume for each of Griff's core models
• Found Ian Bell stating mamba has 10TC (and therefore likely the krait does too)
• revised modifiers for speed and hull strength

So although this chart shows the old models rather than Griffs, any variance should be close to negligable with regards volume.

The ships are all rescaled around the Moray (reason explained up thread).
If they are smaller than before then you can see them within the shadow representing their old size.
If they are larger than before then you can see them either overlapping or next to the shadow representing their old size.



Observations:

• Most of the fighters are quite flat meaning that they don't need to be made much smaller - some are actually slightly larger
• The worst offenders however (krait and asp) have been shrunk significantly
• The previously huge cobra mk III (model calculated for 35 TC capacity) is now just big
• the only things that have been reduced further than the mk III are: thargoid, thargon, asp & krait (the last two only just)
• Biggest increase: orbital shuttle
• Biggest reduction: thargon

The above looks quite playable to me with most ships getting a gentle nudge in the right direction with the ones that seemed ridiculous receiving more of a generous shove.

I think I now have all of the data I need (including for the constrictor - although it isn't displayed here) to make the proposed oxp.

Jane's Galactic Ships and Remote Colonial Construction 6th edition, 3225 pub. coming soon and possibly with a surprise or two...

[Redspear]

Slight delay due to discovering this and this but I'm pretty happy with how my new formula is working - it even makes the python slightly larger than the boa without my having to fudge it!

I'll spare you yet another reworking of the same image for now but it's looking like it will be scaleable around the anaconda, meaning that there will be no need to increase station size (good for oxp compatibility).