Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

[Cholmondely]

on a tough day

Apologies if to any degree on my account.
I may be outspoken sometimes but my opinions are just opinions, nothing more.

No great expert on Morays. But I do agree that OXPs needs to be clearly labelled as such, and hope that I've managed to do so with the plethora of new pages on the wiki.

Montana also clearly agrees and I would be amazed if Hiran disagreed.

So to repeat my offer above, if you see something, let me know, and presuming that it is not handcarved by Aegidian in Agate or by Ahruman in Amethyst, I'll happily have a stab at sorting it out.

[hiran]

No great expert on Morays. But I do agree that OXPs needs to be clearly labelled as such, and hope that I've managed to do so with the plethora of new pages on the wiki.

Montana also clearly agrees and I would be amazed if Hiran disagreed.

So to repeat my offer above, if you see something, let me know, and presuming that it is not handcarved by Aegidian in Agate or by Ahruman in Amethyst, I'll happily have a stab at sorting it out.

I am absolutely with you that OXP content should be somehow marked up. On the other hand it would be tedious for readers to always see the text "If you installed ... OXP"

How about this:

• We keep the vanilla game documentation as is, and strip off any hints towards OXPs.

• Every OXP has it's own page (or redirect). This page obviously needs to contain such a text "Installation Instruction" or whatever, maybe close to where the game rating is located.

• To make it more evident to readers they are reading about the expanded game now, change the page's background colour. Check out https://stackoverflow.com/questions/285 ... ur#9432366

[hiran]

How about this:

• To make it more evident to readers they are reading about the expanded game now, change the page's background colour. Check out https://stackoverflow.com/questions/285 ... ur#9432366

Something similar has already happened. Look at the list of unused templates on the Wiki:
http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Specia ... dTemplates

[Griff]

Speaking of which, the Dat2Obj.py file doesn't seem to work with ooilte_shuttle.dat (Griff's model) whereas it does so just fine with the much simpler shuttle_redux.dat model.

I'm not sure why the shuttle won't convert, i wonder if i've done something it doesn't expect when i built the model, maybe put an edge through a polygon in an odd way or something? as a workaround you can get the models in obj format from the Oolite github, in the oolite-assests bit
https://github.com/OoliteProject/oolite ... t-1.80-obj

[Cholmondely]

No great expert on Morays. But I do agree that OXPs needs to be clearly labelled as such, and hope that I've managed to do so with the plethora of new pages on the wiki.

Montana also clearly agrees and I would be amazed if Hiran disagreed.

So to repeat my offer above, if you see something, let me know, and presuming that it is not handcarved by Aegidian in Agate or by Ahruman in Amethyst, I'll happily have a stab at sorting it out.

I am absolutely with you that OXP content should be somehow marked up. On the other hand it would be tedious for readers to always see the text "If you installed ... OXP"

How about this:

• We keep the vanilla game documentation as is, and strip off any hints towards OXPs.

• Every OXP has it's own page (or redirect). This page obviously needs to contain such a text "Installation Instruction" or whatever, maybe close to where the game rating is located.

• To make it more evident to readers they are reading about the expanded game now, change the page's background colour. Check out https://stackoverflow.com/questions/285 ... ur#9432366

I vote for page colour, which should work for everything bar Griff's page - which is clearly non-Vanilla anyway. Not so sure about standardising anything much else ... happy to add stuff, yes ... but unless it makes a massive difference in some way I cannot fathom, I'd rather not engage on a massive rewrite of what others have written. If the oxp pages have differences, so what? The colour will alert the reader though.

I gazed at a couple of the unused templates. I'm not so sure that they are useful. ADCK never seems to have used the ones he designed (maybe he was argued out of it?) and Maik & Debresser never seem to have used them either. Maik should know more than we do about all this anyway...

Page colour. That gets my vote. Should we go for a tepid puce?

[Redspear]

I vote for page colour, which should work for everything bar Griff's page - which is clearly non-Vanilla anyway. Not so sure about standardising anything much else ...

Before you do that, I'd suggest you/we think about it some more...

Changing background colour seems rather drastic to me and may well affect readability for anyone with visual issues depending on how you do it (or be offset by someone using a particular 'reader').

A simple suffix (OXP) on the page title should be adequate to my mind and avoids the beginner's question of "why are some pages puce?". Of course it replaces it with the question "what the hell does OXP mean?" but that's much easier to fix with a hyperlink than a background colour is.

How about this:

• We keep the vanilla game documentation as is, and strip off any hints towards OXPs.

• Every OXP has it's own page (or redirect). This page obviously needs to contain such a text "Installation Instruction" or whatever, maybe close to where the game rating is located.

• To make it more evident to readers they are reading about the expanded game now, change the page's background colour. Check out https://stackoverflow.com/questions/285 ... ur#9432366

For the first point, just to stop adding oxp details to core page descriptions/main text would be a start. Things like the aforementioned rattle cutter and ophidian references have been there so long that we risk upsetting someone unnecessarily by removing them (in truth, always a risk).

Adding a link to an oxp is fine but do so at the end of the page or in some other way that it's not referenced as if intrinsic to the game or the page theme itself.

Likely something to consider is that if you imagine the 'top ten' most popular oxps, what percentage of players do you think will have installed all of them?
Of those who have, how many will care about consistency or use the wiki as anything other than an oxp bank?

If someone wants to install 100+ oxps then go for it but either that's a meticulously vetted set of mods carefully acquired over the months/years or an inconsistent (if possibly glorious) mess. The latter of which is not a state of affairs to aim for in a wiki however which should relate on some level to everyone's game and so the distinction between core and oxp becomes important.

I think when it gets to the stage where the oxp collecting player is thinking, "have I installed that?", then even they need it spelling out that something is from an oxp. If they've forgotten what they've installed then there's a fair chance they've forgotten the core game too.

So when a player wants to know why they've never found a space dredger (despite them being mentioned all over the place) then that page at least should be clearly marked as oxp.

The dredger is an example of why it's tricky to try to remove every oxp reference from every core page - the dredgers were in the elite manual
even if they never made it into the game.

Page colour I addressed above.

I'm not sure why the shuttle won't convert, i wonder if i've done something it doesn't expect when i built the model, maybe put an edge through a polygon in an odd way or something?

Total bane of my early modelling efforts

It might be me as I had the same problem with the sidewinder model and didn't try any others...

as a workaround you can get the models in obj format from the Oolite github, in the oolite-assests bit
https://github.com/OoliteProject/oolite ... t-1.80-obj

Thanks Griff, I'll give that a try!

[hiran]

I vote for page colour, which should work for everything bar Griff's page - which is clearly non-Vanilla anyway. Not so sure about standardising anything much else ...

Before you do that, I'd suggest you/we think about it some more...

Changing background colour seems rather drastic to me and may well affect readability for anyone with visual issues depending on how you do it (or be offset by someone using a particular 'reader').

A simple suffix (OXP) on the page title should be adequate to my mind and avoids the beginner's question of "why are some pages puce?". Of course it replaces it with the question "what the hell does OXP mean?" but that's much easier to fix with a hyperlink than a background colour is.

Good reasoning.

That's why I pointed out templates. I'd love to have the page color but also the category OXP (which would mean the Wiki can create the list of all OXP related documentation) and your headline in one shot. So rather than just voting for page color, let's agree to add a template, and the content of the template can still change if need be.

Adding a link to an oxp is fine but do so at the end of the page or in some other way that it's not referenced as if intrinsic to the game or the page theme itself.

Full ack. The hint should be there but not destroy the reading experience. That's why I was thinking of placing it near the (now referencing the official name): Gameplay and Balance Indicator

Likely something to consider is that if you imagine the 'top ten' most popular oxps, what percentage of players do you think will have installed all of them?
Of those who have, how many will care about consistency or use the wiki as anything other than an oxp bank?

If someone wants to install 100+ oxps then go for it but either that's a meticulously vetted set of mods carefully acquired over the months/years or an inconsistent (if possibly glorious) mess. The latter of which is not a state of affairs to aim for in a wiki however which should relate on some level to everyone's game and so the distinction between core and oxp becomes important.

I think when it gets to the stage where the oxp collecting player is thinking, "have I installed that?", then even they need it spelling out that something is from an oxp. If they've forgotten what they've installed then there's a fair chance they've forgotten the core game too.

So when a player wants to know why they've never found a space dredger (despite them being mentioned all over the place) then that page at least should be clearly marked as oxp.

Well, I think the wiki might end up as kind of modular documentation. While every player would use the vanilla game documentation, players with OXZs would also have the addendums, which more or less represent the state in his Ooniverse. So if a player complains that in page XX3 of his manual it says so, and on page XX7 it says differently - guess what: The real answer depends on.....???

If that modularity works, we could even think of (do not implement unless absolutely necessary) a PDF created from Wiki pages, making up the full handbook customized for each and every Oolite installation.

[Redspear]

Well, I think the wiki might end up as kind of modular documentation. While every player would use the vanilla game documentation, players with OXZs would also have the addendums, which more or less represent the state in his Ooniverse. So if a player complains that in page XX3 of his manual it says so, and on page XX7 it says differently - guess what: The real answer depends on.....???

The oxps/oxzs deserve a place on the wiki of course, both for clarity and for 'advertising'. The player should be able to find options that are to their liking whilst browsing or even just ideas that become the seed for an oxp they might write one day.

All websites are modular when looked at from a certain points of view, they're more library that book (however small). It's often just useful to know which section each book belongs to. "That was horrifyingly real, what a great story!... Wait a minute, your'e telling me it's non-fiction?! "

[Cholmondely]

Sounds like a heck of a lot of work, it will never get finished - and bluntly, I don't see the point.

[Cholmondely]

The oxps/oxzs deserve a place on the wiki of course, both for clarity and for 'advertising'.

But does the vanilla game even need a wiki?

The material in the world descriptions, is, without oxp's, irrelevant. The descriptions of ships etc is all in the original Elite Manual. There are just a few new pieces of equipment (a_c_'s ANA, STE etc) and that's pretty much it.

The oxp's on the other hand just get a brief teaser in the Expansions Manager, with whatever clues the author has crafted for the in-game F3/F4 pages. Without the wiki, there is little relevant information, except for those individuals who know how to break the OXZ open and look at the ReadMe - assuming that the author has bothered to say anything much. ...and looking for information here on the BB about them is often a pain.

Oh - Hiran - do the Vanilla game stats in your database come from the vanilla game code or from OXPs?

[montana05]

on a tough day

Apologies if to any degree on my account.
I may be outspoken sometimes but my opinions are just opinions, nothing more.

Apologies taken and offered as well. While I do appreciate outspoken after a long day, my patience is rather short. However, I will take your posts as your personal opinions in the future.

[montana05]

I would suggest we handle Redspears valuable posts like they are, as a personal opinion. Therefore, links or lore of OXP's on core ship pages will better be marked as not cantonal. Otherwise, the wiki stays like it is. After years of no moderation at all, finally we are getting kind of a system, specially because of you Cholmondely. If somebody completely wants to flip everything again, welcome, here are the keys, do it yourself.

[Redspear]

The oxps/oxzs deserve a place on the wiki of course, both for clarity and for 'advertising'.

But does the vanilla game even need a wiki?

The material in the world descriptions, is, without oxp's, irrelevant. The descriptions of ships etc is all in the original Elite Manual. There are just a few new pieces of equipment (a_c_'s ANA, STE etc) and that's pretty much it.

The oxp's on the other hand just get a brief teaser in the Expansions Manager, with whatever clues the author has crafted for the in-game F3/F4 pages. Without the wiki, there is little relevant information, except for those individuals who know how to break the OXZ open and look at the ReadMe - assuming that the author has bothered to say anything much. ...and looking for information here on the BB about them is often a pain.

We don't all have or (as a beginner) necessarily know to look for the elite manual though do we?

Otherwise, your remarks appear to agree with the section you have quoted.

I think things are (ironically) getting confused here with too many words (guilty m'lud).

Three key points/suggestions from me:

• mark oxp pages clearly as such
• keep oxp material out of 'core game' pages besides links towards the end of the page
• oxp pages are where any core material can be renamed/altered according to that oxp(/author)'s liking

Summary point: Each player's core game will not necessarily be interacting with any given oxp but any oxp that the player installs WILL be interacting with the core game.

That's it. Just respect that and we can all write what we like. OXP pages likely will need to reference/reinterpret/contradict the core game in some way but they don't need to creep into 'core game' pages in order to do so.

The wiki is already 'modular' provided good use of links and so just think twice when editing a page relating to the core game. So in a sense I'm advocating less work.

Apologies taken and offered as well. While I do appreciate outspoken after a long day, my patience is rather short. However, I will take your posts as your personal opinions in the future.

I'm just another idiot with a keyboard... and don't you forget it!

I would suggest we handle Redspears valuable posts like they are, as a personal opinion. Therefore, links or lore of OXP's on core ship pages will better be marked as not cantonal. Otherwise, the wiki stays like it is. After years of no moderation at all, finally we are getting kind of a system, specially because of you Cholmondely. If somebody completely wants to flip everything again, welcome, here are the keys, do it yourself.

Might be a quote botch up there but yeah, don't let me undermine all the hard work that's gone on - I know it's appreciated by me and surely by others too.

Rather take or leave my thoughts for future efforts: the thoughts of a user/viewer but not of an expert/authority.

[hiran]

Sounds like a heck of a lot of work, it will never get finished - and bluntly, I don't see the point.

It does not have to get finished.

But what I'd like to have is a common vision. Otherwise our efforts would nil out each other and we get nowhere.

[hiran]

Well, I think the wiki might end up as kind of modular documentation. While every player would use the vanilla game documentation, players with OXZs would also have the addendums, which more or less represent the state in his Ooniverse. So if a player complains that in page XX3 of his manual it says so, and on page XX7 it says differently - guess what: The real answer depends on.....???

The oxps/oxzs deserve a place on the wiki of course, both for clarity and for 'advertising'. The player should be able to find options that are to their liking whilst browsing or even just ideas that become the seed for an oxp they might write one day.

All websites are modular when looked at from a certain points of view, they're more library that book (however small). It's often just useful to know which section each book belongs to. "That was horrifyingly real, what a great story!... Wait a minute, your'e telling me it's non-fiction?! "

Full ack!