Oolite Bulletins

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:18 am

montana05 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:41 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:23 pm

Goodness me! Hero! That sounds absolutely super!! Well done!

I'd love to see it! Will you be calling it "Montana's Monumentally Murderous Modifications"?

Here we go:
https://app.box.com/s/35s7upenqndlm53kfoy2kqp9crqay8z8

Please remember it is a WIP so a bit chaotic and not cleaned up and therefore not useful to publish in the current state. BTW the name is simple Lambda Series

Just wanted to ask how your "pièce de résistance" is coming along...

Not even opened it, I think the problem with the pictures could be solved by loading them into an Apple paint application and saving them again. For the limited time I got currently for Oolite I am concentrating in some simple ship OXP's rather than splitting up an entire package.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:47 am

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:04 pm

An example of an idea I've got knocking around that will be absolutely painful to code...

...Now, the reason why that's going to be painful to code is the forming-up process after each jump.
Ships can get separated, some even destroyed...have to be extras to handle such contingencies as well as "leave no one behind".
It's slightly easier if the ships are in 1 single-array group, so each can be selected with $ship_group[ship_number] instead of having to fiddle with search-for-nearest ship looping and trying to determine if each ship so found is even part of the loose group.

There's also the problem when more than about 5 ships dog-pile a single wormhole they come out on top of each other on the other side, sometimes comically...sometimes explosively.

Switeck - "sometimes explosively" - is this what actually happens?

Also - is this really not included in the Galactic Navy.oxp programming? I presume that it is/was going to be part of the HIMSN programming (eg. the unpublished Stage 2's yearly parade).

This idea is in no way included in Galactic Navy OXP...and I'm not aware of it in HIMSN programming either.

Switeck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:07 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:47 am

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:04 pm

An example of an idea I've got knocking around that will be absolutely painful to code...

...Now, the reason why that's going to be painful to code is the forming-up process after each jump.
Ships can get separated, some even destroyed...have to be extras to handle such contingencies as well as "leave no one behind".
It's slightly easier if the ships are in 1 single-array group, so each can be selected with $ship_group[ship_number] instead of having to fiddle with search-for-nearest ship looping and trying to determine if each ship so found is even part of the loose group.

There's also the problem when more than about 5 ships dog-pile a single wormhole they come out on top of each other on the other side, sometimes comically...sometimes explosively.

Switeck - "sometimes explosively" - is this what actually happens?

Also - is this really not included in the Galactic Navy.oxp programming? I presume that it is/was going to be part of the HIMSN programming (eg. the unpublished Stage 2's yearly parade).

This idea is in no way included in Galactic Navy OXP...and I'm not aware of it in HIMSN programming either.

So what about the various formation oxp's? cim's Escort Formations and Norby's Convoys? Do they have AI covering this?

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:59 pm

Switeck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:07 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:47 am

Switeck - "sometimes explosively" - is this what actually happens?

Also - is this really not included in the Galactic Navy.oxp programming? I presume that it is/was going to be part of the HIMSN programming (eg. the unpublished Stage 2's yearly parade).

This idea is in no way included in Galactic Navy OXP...and I'm not aware of it in HIMSN programming either.

So what about the various formation oxp's? cim's Escort Formations and Norby's Convoys? Do they have AI covering this?

There is no jump-related scripting in cim's Escort Formations or any of the 3 of Norby's Convoys.

Switeck wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 5:03 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:59 pm

Switeck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:07 pm

This idea is in no way included in Galactic Navy OXP...and I'm not aware of it in HIMSN programming either.

So what about the various formation oxp's? cim's Escort Formations and Norby's Convoys? Do they have AI covering this?

There is no jump-related scripting in cim's Escort Formations or any of the 3 of Norby's Convoys.

Thanks for checking this out. I doubt that the missions have anything (perhaps Resistance Commander, but it is old). Is there anything else which is obviously missing which I should flag up?

I'll mention this lack on the Oolite PriorityAI Tutorial, which strikes me as the best bet - unless you can think of a better (I don't really understand the wiki programming pages and have no idea as to what might be most relevant).

Oh! And Switeck - what should I call it? Just "jump-related scripting", or something more elaborate?

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 5:59 pm

I doubt that the missions have anything (perhaps Resistance Commander, but it is old). Is there anything else which is obviously missing which I should flag up?

I'll mention this lack on the Oolite PriorityAI Tutorial, which strikes me as the best bet - unless you can think of a better (I don't really understand the wiki programming pages and have no idea as to what might be most relevant).

Oh! And Switeck - what should I call it? Just "jump-related scripting", or something more elaborate?

There is no reason yet to create a Wiki article/page concerning this idea because right now that's about ALL it is...there'd be almost nothing to put there!

I've quite a bit of experience with making a single NPC ship create a wormhole bound for either a specific or random destination.
...It's the programming needed to coordinate 5+ jump-capable ships doing that (along with probably jump-incapable escorts) through multiple systems that gets ugly.

I've spent a long time looking at other OXPs for how to code multi-system convoy trips.
The few OXPs/OXZs that have anything like that are much simpler and/or over-specialized and would be hard to turn into a general/generic convoy-wide use-case.

Earlier versions of Xeptatl's Sword at point/s in the campaign had shared wormhole use, but it was basically a convoy of 2 ships -- yours and the NPC ship that made the wormhole.
I hacked that to have the NPC ships that made earlier wormholes follow you through the later wormholes -- and that created a dog-pile mess where ships came out on top of each other and started bouncing off each other, slightly damaging each other...potentially with fatal consequences if there were more of them or speed+size differences were greater. (Adder rams Adder and they both bounce. Adder rams Behemoth ...goes splat.)

Coyote's Run campaign/mission may have something similar, but I haven't read into the code or played through that yet.


PS: I've sent you a couple PMs recently.

Switeck wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:38 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 5:59 pm

I doubt that the missions have anything (perhaps Resistance Commander, but it is old). Is there anything else which is obviously missing which I should flag up?

I'll mention this lack on the Oolite PriorityAI Tutorial, which strikes me as the best bet - unless you can think of a better (I don't really understand the wiki programming pages and have no idea as to what might be most relevant).

Oh! And Switeck - what should I call it? Just "jump-related scripting", or something more elaborate?

There is no reason yet to create a Wiki article/page concerning this idea because right now that's about ALL it is...there'd be almost nothing to put there!

I've quite a bit of experience with making a single NPC ship create a wormhole bound for either a specific or random destination.
...It's the programming needed to coordinate 5+ jump-capable ships doing that (along with probably jump-incapable escorts) through multiple systems that gets ugly.

I've spent a long time looking at other OXPs for how to code multi-system convoy trips.
The few OXPs/OXZs that have anything like that are much simpler and/or over-specialized and would be hard to turn into a general/generic convoy-wide use-case.

Earlier versions of Xeptatl's Sword at point/s in the campaign had shared wormhole use, but it was basically a convoy of 2 ships -- yours and the NPC ship that made the wormhole.
I hacked that to have the NPC ships that made earlier wormholes follow you through the later wormholes -- and that created a dog-pile mess where ships came out on top of each other and started bouncing off each other, slightly damaging each other...potentially with fatal consequences if there were more of them or speed+size differences were greater. (Adder rams Adder and they both bounce. Adder rams Behemoth ...goes splat.)

Just wondering if this has anything to do with Okti's Jump Planner - where you smash into the back of his cobra when you exit the final jump unless you are quick off the mark.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:46 am

Just wondering if this has anything to do with Okti's Jump Planner - where you smash into the back of his cobra when you exit the final jump unless you are quick off the mark.

It does...and that's a really good example of the problem.

Okti used a modified Cobra as the jumping ship to create the wormhole. Early versions of Long Range Scanner's Jump Planner would continuously spawn more Cobras in to jump your ship out even if they were all mass-locked.

I initially used a basic missile as the jumping ship to create wormholes...it had an added bonus of self-destructing at the destination because it had no target to chase. Made for a really simple jump script!
I ran into a problem though, if the missile was mass-locked from jumping out or was given an impossible destination -- it would remain in-system with you, lock onto your ship, crash into your ship, and detonate like a regular missile for regular missile damage!

I got better at choosing working destinations and not being mass-locked before trying this...
I mean I switched the jumping ship for creating wormholes to an alloy panel -- those don't shoot back. It doesn't have to make sense as a jump ship...it just has to exist as an entity in-game so the game knows where to create the wormhole.

But that's a far cry from tracking 5+ ships and having them assemble and share a wormhole...then repeat those actions again after each jump, using a different ship's fuel to hyperspace each time.

Switeck wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:21 pm

I initially used a basic missile as the jumping ship to create wormholes...it had an added bonus of self-destructing at the destination because it had no target to chase. Made for a really simple jump script!
I ran into a problem though, if the missile was mass-locked from jumping out or was given an impossible destination -- it would remain in-system with you, lock onto your ship, crash into your ship, and detonate like a regular missile for regular missile damage!

Brilliant!

I like the idea of a wormhole missile tho

Switeck wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:21 pm

But that's a far cry from tracking 5+ ships and having them assemble and share a wormhole...then repeat those actions again after each jump, using a different ship's fuel to hyperspace each time.

This I can see as a valid tactic for a group/convoy of large traders...

cbr wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:42 pm

Switeck wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:21 pm

I initially used a basic missile as the jumping ship to create wormholes...it had an added bonus of self-destructing at the destination because it had no target to chase. Made for a really simple jump script!
I ran into a problem though, if the missile was mass-locked from jumping out or was given an impossible destination -- it would remain in-system with you, lock onto your ship, crash into your ship, and detonate like a regular missile for regular missile damage!

Brilliant!

I like the idea of a wormhole missile tho

Someone else has already made a wormhole missile/drone:
WormholeDronesWIP.oxp
Discussion about it: (at least for the first few posts...)
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8912

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:04 pm

There's also the problem when more than about 5 ships dog-pile a single wormhole they come out on top of each other on the other side, sometimes comically...sometimes explosively.

Just spitballin' here: would using a timer to separate the arrivals help to avoid the incomging dog-pile?

Probably not, but maybe someone who really understands the core game logic for handling ships arriving from a wormhole can say for sure...

montana05 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:41 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:23 pm

montana05 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:18 pm

One of my (lot) WIP's include a small fleet attacking the main planet, admiral orders, drop shuttles and bombardment included before the entire fleet is going down on the planet. The entire scenario is tested and is working.

If you like, I can upload the OXP for you so that you can have a look. Warning ! The package includes various other (harmless) scenarios as well, like a hospital ship sending aid to a planet or the behavior of traders too large to dock.

Goodness me! Hero! That sounds absolutely super!! Well done!

I'd love to see it! Will you be calling it "Montana's Monumentally Murderous Modifications"?

Here we go:
https://app.box.com/s/35s7upenqndlm53kfoy2kqp9crqay8z8

Please remember it is a WIP so a bit chaotic and not cleaned up and therefore not useful to publish in the current state. BTW the name is simple Lambda Series

Happy New Year!

Any progress on this one?

There seem to be a number of missing OXPs. I thought it might be interesting to list some of them.

1) Systems OXPs
We have flavour OXPs for Commies, Dictatorships, Feudals and Anarchies.

1a) Corporates
I would have expected Corporates to have an equally strong flavour (system domination by the local Corporation in the same way as the other systems are dominated by their Communist governments, for example).

Lots of advertising by the local Corporation (see Imprint chapter 6). Lots of Corporate vessels/stations. Corporate Rock Hermits. Discounts for repeat customers with loyalty cards! Possibly even pressure to "join" the corporation as one does more and more business with it.

Just about everywhere you looked on Leesti Station 5, the imperial purple TLK logo would intrude your line of vision. The corporation sponsored, monitored, administered and generally wished you well whenever they received your money. (Imprint)

1b) Confederacies/Multi-Govs
I understand these to be mixes of the other 6 systems differentiated by their ability to co-operate. So one would presume that there would be a pick and mix from the other OXPs depending on the wealth of the planetary governments. How about a Feudal Lodge, a CZGF and an Imperial Astro-Factory in a wealthy Confederacy (say Xexedi)?

1c) Democracies
I see these as the least flavourful of the 8 government types. Does anybody have any better ideas?


2) Ooniversal Dynamism
Things only change in a handful of mission OXPs. And from what I've seen, in limited regions.

It would be rather superb to see a general deterioration in the Ooniverse over time as one plays.
•Not just increased Thargoid activity (has this already been done?). But the rise of pirate gangs. the weakening of the GalCop police and any associated Navies.
•And deterioration in the individual Systems - loss of TL, less wealth, possibly higher prices but mixed with lower demand. Corporates and Democracies turning into Multi-Govs/Dictatorships/Commies. Invasions of one system by another. Commies and Dictatorships spreading their empires. Pirates turning poorer systems into anarchies.
•Increases in the price of equipment/fuel etc.
•Releases of improved technology as time goes by.

This could nicely balance the remorseless increase in personal wealth by the player if handled carefully.


References:
*Corporate Systems Flavour OXP (2011) - just a discussion thread, no .oxp
*Amaranth's Refinery Station (2013) - making corporate systems special - starts with fuel distillation stations at corporate system stars.
*Dynamic Ooniverse (2007) - the Ooniverse changing as time goes on (more pirates, Thargoids...).

Moved the discussion on Exploration/Systems OXPs to here from the Explorers' Club thread as it seems more relevant (discussing what "is" exploration - and if it can be facilitated through OXPs - such as those mentioned directly above).

Switeck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:46 am

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 1:28 am

The plethora of Tionisla OXPs (we're now up to 6! including the mission) must make the downloaders interested in visiting Tionisla. Sadly, in terms of things to do there is only the mission and a little sightseeing which once done is unlikely to be repeated (Alnivel had ideas about another Tionisla Chronicle mission based around TOGY).

https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.ph ... 05#p285405
"Take Tionisla's graveyard...."

But DGill's work on Feudal States is making the player's "chosen" feudal state much more interesting and more of a focus of the game.

That is really good.

How about a GalCop/Ensorean mission to root out the pirates who have taken over Ararus?

Sounds like a someone else's job...

And you may need to check PMs!

I trust you realise that I'm not presuming that it is your job - but am merely trying to see how many atomi I can add to your stature by pulling your leg.



Switeck:

apropos of Wildeblood's earlier comment (that you "get it" and Szaumix seems to):


How do you understand the joys of discovery/exploration in Oolite?
What are you hoping to do? What sort of experiences would you value? What wrecks it for you?


For me, it is discovering new things. As Szaumix stated, there is more joy in discovering a station/planet (especially if I have to work out where it is - eg in 2015's E:D or in SOTL Exploration) than just following a beacon on my space compass. And seeing different things - especially if I can interact with them in some way (some way a bit more involved than using Broadcast Comms to read the name of a TOGY-ificated memorial - although that is very definitely a start). I wonder if Telescope might need toning down just a tad - I can see the Rock Hermits from the start (but not the Jaguar oxp bases or the Hacker gangs).

So the Systems OXPs are vital for me, as they make the systems much more interesting. More to see. More to do. And the fact that there are differences is also important - the Imperial Dictatorships vs the Juntas. The CZGFs vs the SLAPUs. And even more so - the texts in cim's Ship's Library with the 3 utterly different examples of each political system. So I really don't get your point about the preponderance of Dictatorship ships, why it seems such a drag to you! To me, it is a welcome new flavour.

I wonder what else could easily be added to them? Some military zone no-go areas (with missions sending one there to see is going on - or to nab something!)? More activities (rescuing astro-gulag prisoners? Or docking with an Astrofactory to allow a refugee to clamber on board and try and escape. We would presumably need to modify "Bounty System" so that the Commies can put a whopping big bounty on your head that nobody else gives a fig about. As in North Korea or China right now. Or their bounty might even make one a hero elsewhere!). Oh - and would there be any chance of your posting your tweaks to the Imperial Astrofactories F8 markets? The CZGF/SLAPU markets offer a good mark-up, but in Stranger's World they easily take 20-30 minutes of game time to get to, so it seems justified. Not so for Astrofactories.

I agree with your point about the contrived discovery of the Hacker's dens. I was hoping that much of that sort of thing might be addressed through SoTL - an interaction in the bar with a pilot who is going there, for example. Or a skirmish with a pirate who retreats there. A proper system for navigation would make all the difference, as one could then be given rough directions. And then go and "explore". The only thing along those lines I've seen so far is GalCop Missions' "other side of the sun". It would be nice to be able to do more.