Why was the difficulty of pirates set so high?

[Redspear]

It was a peach of a route in Elite but you won't have much fuel left for your injectors (if you have any).

Yes, but - with minimal piracy - injectors shouldn't be needed. Players have to put in the work of getting to the station (assuming they don't use the off-lane wangle) at a standard pace. Once they get injectors, and maybe a few more bits of kit, they can start looking for a bit more excitement …

Looking for a bit of excitement is just fine - the game has plenty to recommend it aside from just fighting, but who doesn't want to get some notches on his gunbelt? The issue is that "a few more bits of kit" doesn't cut it once the opposition are too numerous, too fast and too smart. The encounter I described above was using a Commander from an old save game whose ship mods take up two whole pages, and it still wasn't enough!

They do tend to be very good shots these days. If (as a beginner) you're not outnumbered then you're probably outgunned and most likely both.
As a_c explains below...

The difference in recharge, combined with the difference in damage output means that in the same time period, the beam can deliver twice the punch of the pulse. During a one second fire burst, the pulse will have fired twice and delivered 30 units of energe damage, while the beam will have fired ten times and will have delivered 60 units of damage.

That and the superior range means that against even one opponent with a beam laser (the typical pirate weapon) you're likely in trouble.

Once you can afford a military laser however, the tables are well and truly turned as now it's you with twice the power AND twice the range. So it's not a simple matter of just tweaking pirate numbers (although that would be a good start). I've been tinkering around with laser properties and found early tests to be to my liking. I must get back to it...

[Rekrul]

Do you have Scanner Targeting Enhancement installed? That's a core piece of equipment and should help with not losing your target when things get hot.

That's the next thing on my shopping list. It's only available at tech level 12 systems though and so far, all the ones around where I am (the starting position, basically) are too dangerous to go to. I tried, figuring that I could just use the injectors to outrun pirates, but one of them still caught up to me and when I turned to fight him, the rest of the pack caught up and pummeled me.

Not sure about your fighting style, but there is a video here, where I go against 12 pirates in an iron ass.

I wasn't using a joystick with a lot of buttons, so I wasn't adjusting my speed in the middle of the battle much. Also, without the scanner upgrade, I wasn't able to track the same ship so easily or tell when it was centered in the crosshairs at a distance. Beyond that, my fight didn't look a lot different than yours other than the fact that the beam laser didn't seem to be having any effect.

Note that I am not trying to concentrate on anyone in particular...

I assumed that the pirate ships would all have the same types of equipment as available to player and that their shields would also recharge similarly, such that if you don't concentrate on a particular enemy until they're destroyed, their shields will just regenerate and all the time you spent attacking them would be for nothing.

I don't know for sure, but in Elite, it always seemed that every hit wore down the enemy a little until eventually they were destroyed. I don't think you had to worry about their shields regenerating, so no matter how long it took you, if you just kept hitting them, eventually you'd kill them.

Not entirely a beginner's situation, but I hope it gives an idea or two.

It gives me the idea that I need much better equipment to win in combat.

@Rekrul - are you using a joystick? If so, does it have a spare button you can assign to Precision Mode?
Also, there's an excellent guide to setting up your joystick axis profiles here.

Yes and no. I was using a digital joystick that I assigned to generate keypresses. Also, I set it up so that it used CTRL in combination with the arrow keys, so that it was in precision mode all the time. This made it more like I'm used to with Elite as the control didn't feel so 'slippery'. So far I've resisted digging out one of my flightsticks because to be honest, I've never really found them all that comfortable to use. I don't mean the physical design of the joystick itself, but just the way they force you to hold your arm up to match the height of the stick when it's sitting on a table. Additionally, I'm not the best at holding an analog stick in a a fixed position to do fine maneuvers, so I usually end up swerving all over the place like I'm drunk.

Leesti-Diso is not a good choice, too many pirate packs from naughty neighboors...

I've encountered a few, but not that many. There really aren't that many good trading partners near the starting position and as I discovered, leaving the area is pretty much a no-go since all the routes dead end at points where the only way to continue is to through dangerous systems, which will get you killed in a weak ship.

Get a target lock on your target, then there should be a little "v" around the crosshair pointing to the direction of your target, so you know in which direction to steer to find it when it flies off your view angle to find it again and keep firing on the same enemy.

That's a feature of the scanner upgrade which I don't have yet.

Once you can afford a military laser however, the tables are well and truly turned as now it's you with twice the power AND twice the range.

Of course, the farther away a target is, the harder it is to target them.

[Cody]

... so that it was in precision mode all the time.

You really need to be able to toggle that on and off.

[another_commander]

Also, the Ensoreus - Isinor route mentioned by Disembodied earlier is easily reachable if you start the game by selecting Easy Start, which will place you in Tionisla with 1000Cr. Buy injectors immediately, then fly to Isinor which is within jump range. There might be occasional pirate activity at Ensoreus due to its neighbourhood, but there are also increased police patrols for this very reason (extra police patrols are always generated when there are remote system pirates present).

On the subject of concentrating on a specific target, just want to clarify it a bit better. You are correct in that enemies regenerate energy just like your ship does. When I say I don't concentrate on a particular one, I mean that I am always ready to switch targets if one more dangerous that my current one becomes involved and starts landing hits on me.

[Rekrul]

Also, the Ensoreus - Isinor route mentioned by Disembodied earlier is easily reachable if you start the game by selecting Easy Start, which will place you in Tionisla with 1000Cr. Buy injectors immediately, then fly to Isinor which is within jump range. There might be occasional pirate activity at Ensoreus due to its neighbourhood, but there are also increased police patrols for this very reason (extra police patrols are always generated when there are remote system pirates present).

I'm actually there now. And I just learned another valuable piece of information: Trying to scoop fuel without extra heat shielding is suicide. By the time the scoop activates, you're too close to the star and even if you immediately reverse course, you're still going to burn up.

[Rekrul]

And having now encountered a Thargoid (in normal space!), I see that they're nigh on invincible. The ship has no front and can fire at you from literally any angle, so while you're trying to get a lock on it, it's steadily whittling down your shields since it never stops firing.

So more advice for new players: if you encounter a Thargoid, quit the game and reload your last save because you're not going to survive. Unless maybe you can outrun it with injectors, if you have fuel enough (I didn't).

[dybal]

Get a target lock on your target, then there should be a little "v" around the crosshair pointing to the direction of your target, so you know in which direction to steer to find it when it flies off your view angle to find it again and keep firing on the same enemy.

That's a feature of the scanner upgrade which I don't have yet.

Your choice of going Diso-Leesti limited you, you would have to go down to Onrira to get it (I don't remember how unsafe Oresqu is), and being able to buy kit as cash becomes available is part of the early game. If you have Isinor as the Agro anchor of your milk run, you have three TL12 systems to choose for the Industrial anchor (two Average and one Rich Industrial).

And having now encountered a Thargoid (in normal space!), I see that they're nigh on invincible. The ship has no front and can fire at you from literally any angle, so while you're trying to get a lock on it, it's steadily whittling down your shields since it never stops firing.

So more advice for new players: if you encounter a Thargoid, quit the game and reload your last save because you're not going to survive. Unless maybe you can outrun it with injectors, if you have fuel enough (I didn't).

I would not say that... I would say: save often (I do after every docking), have multiple savefiles and rotate them (so you don't overwrite them at every save), so you can go backtrack further, but try to handle whatever trouble comes your way (to the bitter end if necessary) for its learning value - I'm currently at the 200 kills ballpark, but that is the happy-way history after the backtracks - the real number, counting all the dead-end branchs were I didn't survive, or took so much damage that it wasn't worth it, is much higher.

I'm fairly new to the game (and never played Elite either), but even as a complete novice in a default start with nothing but Fast Target Selector in my kit I didn't have so much trouble getting to the Isinor region (I can't say if it was on the first try - don't remember - but I didn't get stuck trying and dying)... actually, the default start do try to get the new Jameson directed that way instead of Diso-Leesti, it offers a package delivery to Zaonce...

I sold the laser as soon as I got to Zaonce, TL12, (since I didn't plan to fight at first, just run) and used the cash for cargo (filling the hold with high return goods was the priority), and started to kit up towards cargo capacity, better navigation info (ASC, finding a station by eyeball doesn't make sense), running away from trouble (injectors), and survival (extra energy unit) as I could spare the cash for it, and only got a laser back once I could afford a Military Laser (aft position first, I was still running from fights!), and only stopped running from single pirates once I kitted up both in-game and real world (had to get a joystick).

I did Bemaera-Ensoreus as a milk-run first until I figured out Isinor-Qutiri would give better results (Poor Agro to Rich Ind vs Avg Agro to Rich Ind)... and I found it safer as well.

Figuring a way to survive with the bare-bones ship and get the money to kit it up as fast as possible is the fun possible at the beginning, fighting must come latter, unless you choose one of the easy starts from OXPs.

[Rekrul]

Your choice of going Diso-Leesti limited you, you would have to go down to Onrira to get it (I don't remember how unsafe Oresqu is), and being able to buy kit as cash becomes available is part of the early game. If you have Isinor as the Agro anchor of your milk run, you have three TL12 systems to choose for the Industrial anchor (two Average and one Rich Industrial).

It's been many years since I read the manual for Elite, but I could swear it recommended a rich agricultural and poor industrial. Maybe I have that backwards (as my experience in the game would suggest), so that's what I was initially looking for.

I'm now doing Isinor <> Ensoreus trading furs and computers. Also, now that I have heat shielding, I make a point of going to the sun on each trip and refueling, otherwise I have very little fuel left for escaping pirates and avoiding masslocks. As a bonus, going from the sun to the planet, I almost never encounter any other ships. The one time I tried flying back to the beacon, I got attacked multiple times.

I would not say that... I would say: save often (I do after every docking)

Me too, always have.

...but try to handle whatever trouble comes your way (to the bitter end if necessary) for its learning value

It's kind of demoralizing to see how quickly they can kill you. I can't imagine being able to survive a misjump into witchspace, if it follows the Elite model and strands you there for a period of time with an endless parade of Thargoid ships being spawned. At least in Elite, even though the model was an octagon, the Thargoid ships had a front. You could tell this because they would turn away from you and stop firing, like many/most other ships, and only resume once they had turned in your direction. These Thargoids are just a constant stream of lasers from all angles.

I'm currently at the 200 kills ballpark

I'm only at 7. I would be higher, but like you, I made some kills then got massacred by a single ship. Why is it that the fuel injectors always seem to be the first thing to get damaged?

I'm fairly new to the game (and never played Elite either)

Coming to Oolite from Elite is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, everything about the game was familiar to me. I was able to jump right in and start playing. About the only thing I needed to look up when I first started was what keys were used for accelerate/decelerate as these are different. Almost everything else is the same; Most of the key controls, the stations, the ships, the systems, the various screens, etc. On the other hand, combat in Elite is MUCH easier. It's possible (though hard) to win fights with just the stock ship and a pulse laser. In fact, other than better lasers, the only pieces of equipment that Elite offers are are the extra energy unit and ECM. No enhanced shields, targeting computer, etc. Plus, the C64 version that I played ran in 320x200 resolution, so not only was there no shading/lighting (wireframe with hidden line removal), even when a ship was reduced to a single dot at a distance, you could still spot it fairly easily.

Going from Elite to Oolite is like going from a simple boxing match to being dropped in the ring with a world-class MMA fighter.

I sold the laser as soon as I got to Zaonce, TL12, (since I didn't plan to fight at first, just run) and used the cash for cargo (filling the hold with high return goods was the priority), and started to kit up towards cargo capacity, better navigation info (ASC, finding a station by eyeball doesn't make sense), running away from trouble (injectors), and survival (extra energy unit) as I could spare the cash for it, and only got a laser back once I could afford a Military Laser (aft position first!), and only stopped running from single pirates once I kitted up both in-game and real world (had to get a joystick).

My general upgrade path is an extended cargo bay first (when I can afford it), then a beam laser, extra energy unit, then a military laser, eventually both fore and aft and ECM. Although in Elite, it was usually possible to just shoot down the missiles.

Figuring a way to survive with the bare-bones ship and get the money to kit it up as fast as possible is the fun possible at the beginning, fighting must come latter, unless you choose one of the easy starts from OXPs.

I chose the normal start from Lave with a stock ship and 100 credits. At the moment I have 23,407 credits, 7 kills, military laser (fore), beam laser (aft), extra energy unit, ECM, scanner upgrade, advanced compass, fuel injectors, wormhole scanner and fuel scoop. I'll buy shield boosters next, then an aft military laser. Although I know from experience that trying to aim the rear laser is a PITA. Yes, I know there's an OXP for reversing the controls...

EDIT: 14 kills and Mostly Harmless.

[dybal]

Your choice of going Diso-Leesti limited you, you would have to go down to Onrira to get it (I don't remember how unsafe Oresqu is), and being able to buy kit as cash becomes available is part of the early game. If you have Isinor as the Agro anchor of your milk run, you have three TL12 systems to choose for the Industrial anchor (two Average and one Rich Industrial).

It's been many years since I read the manual for Elite, but I could swear it recommended a rich agricultural and poor industrial. Maybe I have that backwards (as my experience in the game would suggest), so that's what I was initially looking for.

I saw somewhere beginners recommendations (probably the wiki) talk about milk-runs between Poor Agro and Rich Industrial, and by experience you can buy Computers for ~60₢ and sell for ~100₢ (profit ~40₢/t) on one leg and buy Furs for ~60₢ and sell for ~80₢ (profit ~20₢/t) on the other... the only better deal I found (trading...) is buying Alloys at 0.4₢/t in Deep Space Dredgers and selling it at stations for 30-40₢/t.

I'm now doing Isinor <> Ensoreus trading furs and computers. Also, now that I have heat shielding, I make a point of going to the sun on each trip and refueling, otherwise I have very little fuel left for escaping pirates and avoiding masslocks. As a bonus, going from the sun to the planet, I almost never encounter any other ships. The one time I tried flying back to the beacon, I got attacked multiple times.

If you are trading just furs and computers, I guess you don't have the cargo bay extension... try the HyperCargo OXP to double your cargo capacity (and halve the time needed to accrue the cash necessary to kit up).

You might want to look into FuelCollector or HardWay OXPs... both allow you to scoop fuel from the solar wind, farther away from the sun, at a lower scooping rate... HardWay comes with some penalties to balance it though: cruising around consumes fuel.

...but try to handle whatever trouble comes your way (to the bitter end if necessary) for its learning value

It's kind of demoralizing to see how quickly they can kill you. I can't imagine being able to survive a misjump into witchspace, if it follows the Elite model and strands you there for a period of time with an endless parade of Thargoid ships being spawned. At least in Elite, even though the model was an octagon, the Thargoid ships had a front. You could tell this because they would turn away from you and stop firing, like many/most other ships, and only resume once they had turned in your direction. These Thargoids are just a constant stream of lasers from all angles.

If you have injectors you can survive a Thargoid ambush... just inject away as fast as possible (don't waste time looking around or trying to fight, just press 'i' and try to head away from them jinking up and down) and go into Torus Drive as soon as you are in green condition - but unless you have FuelCollector OXP installed (it allows you to scoop fuel in interstellar space), by the time you get away you might be too low in fuel to jump anywhere... died a couple of times that way...

As for the pirates, it will get better once you have a chance to kit up, you will have a fighting chance, but some of them will still be though... I spent a time after kitting up turning pirates into derelicts to salvage (best money I've made in the game still ), and looking at the salvage screens once I got the derelicts to the main station, a surprising amount of them had Extra Energy Units, Shield Boosters, Shield capacitors and even Military Shield Enhancements, but few had anything better than beam lasers (I have NewLasers OXP installed, so there is quite a variety of lasers ).

I still carry around an energy bomb and keep it primed when I jump into witchspace... got rid of a few large pirate gangs that way... even made a profit on their bounties once!

If you find milk-running till you have the cash to kit up too boring, cheat (it's your game after all) your way into enough cash (there is a Cheat OXP) to buy at least the injectors, extra energy unit, shield booster and military laser and you will be more even-matched to face the pirates.

I'm currently at the 200 kills ballpark

I'm only at 7. I would be higher, but like you, I made some kills then got massacred by a single ship. Why is it that the fuel injectors always seem to be the first thing to get damaged?

I stayed at 1 kill (and that kill was an accident, I fired a missile as a pirate was leaving a Rock Hermit I intended to dock into) for weeks... when I started to fight back, the most often damaged item was the forward laser (until I uninstalled LaserBooster OXP - my ship didn't have that piece of equipment, but I had the OXP installed).

I sold the laser as soon as I got to Zaonce, TL12, (since I didn't plan to fight at first, just run) and used the cash for cargo (filling the hold with high return goods was the priority), and started to kit up towards cargo capacity, better navigation info (ASC, finding a station by eyeball doesn't make sense), running away from trouble (injectors), and survival (extra energy unit) as I could spare the cash for it, and only got a laser back once I could afford a Military Laser (aft position first!), and only stopped running from single pirates once I kitted up both in-game and real world (had to get a joystick).

My general upgrade path is an extended cargo bay first (when I can afford it), then a beam laser, extra energy unit, then a military laser, eventually both fore and aft and ECM. Although in Elite, it was usually possible to just shoot down the missiles.

The HyperCargo pays itself in half a dozen round trips in a good milk-run on a Cobra Mark-III - even at 12000₢ it's a bargain...

I've never been able to shoot down a missile in flight, I would get ECM before starting to fight back.

Figuring a way to survive with the bare-bones ship and get the money to kit it up as fast as possible is the fun possible at the beginning, fighting must come latter, unless you choose one of the easy starts from OXPs.

I chose the normal start from Lave with a stock ship and 100 credits. At the moment I have 23,407 credits, 7 kills, military laser (fore), beam laser (aft), extra energy unit, ECM, scanner upgrade, advanced compass, fuel injectors, wormhole scanner and fuel scoop. I'll buy shield boosters next, then an aft military laser. Although I know from experience that trying to aim the rear laser is a PITA. Yes, I know there's an OXP for reversing the controls...

I only use the aft laser if I'm running away from the fight (nowadays, as I'm parcel running, because I can't afford the time it would take to fight back), otherwise I would close up, get on somebody's 6 and use the forward weapon... I haven't tried to use the aft weapon if somebody get on my 6 in a dogfight - I don't even know if any of the AIs try that...

[Cody]

... as I'm parcel running, because I can't afford the time it would take to fight back...

<nods> As an interstellar courier, every second counts! And it can become a very lucrative career.

Although in Elite, it was usually possible to just shoot down the missiles.

MIssiles can be shot down.

I know from experience that trying to aim the rear laser is a PITA.

All it takes is practice.

[dybal]

... as I'm parcel running, because I can't afford the time it would take to fight back...

<nods> As an interstellar courier, every second counts! And it can become a very lucrative career.

I'm persisting at it for two or three round-the-galaxy trips to see how lucrative I can get it to be... I'm 3/4 of the way to complete the first one and have 9 open contracts ranging from 450₢ to 4800₢, but most of them in the 1~2K ballpark...

I find all the hurrying around in game-time a bit stressful ... much more so than combat!

But the real hard part is figuring out if I can include a new contract in my already established itinerary, and re-working it if the answer is yes... it's _a lot_ of off-game-time work, and I don't think it would be viable without the Oolite Interactive Map

[Cody]

PG's Interactive Map is a gem of a tool! As for how lucrative: at the Elite level, cross-chart contracts can eventually run to six figures...



Of course, that pay-off doesn't include the half-dozen five figure contracts delivered along the way.

[Redspear]

Although in Elite, it was usually possible to just shoot down the missiles.

MIssiles can be shot down.

Much harder than it was in elite (as I remarked in my test a few years ago) but it can be done.
Also you can fire a missile against a missile! More expensive but they might trigger their own ECM.
Isn't there also a quick way to missile lock an enemy missile?

I know from experience that trying to aim the rear laser is a PITA.

All it takes is practice.

Both true

[Rekrul]

If you are trading just furs and computers, I guess you don't have the cargo bay extension... try the HyperCargo OXP to double your cargo capacity (and halve the time needed to accrue the cash necessary to kit up).

I do have the extended cargo bay, so I take 35t of cargo both ways. Furs and computers produce the best profits. I get ~700 on each load of furs and ~1400 on each load of computers. So far I haven't installed an OXPs that change the balance of the game, only ones to make it look nicer.

If you have injectors you can survive a Thargoid ambush... just inject away as fast as possible (don't waste time looking around or trying to fight, just press 'i' and try to head away from them jinking up and down) and go into Torus Drive as soon as you are in green condition - but unless you have FuelCollector OXP installed (it allows you to scoop fuel in interstellar space), by the time you get away you might be too low in fuel to jump anywhere... died a couple of times that way...

I didn't have much fuel left. I've been jumping between Isinor and Ensoreus and after the jump, I don't have much fuel left. Normally I immediately fly to the sun and refuel. This gives me plenty of fuel to escape large pirate groups and annoying masslocks. However, on one jump, when I headed toward the sun (I don't remember which system it was), the Thargoid was hanging out near the sun. It suddenly went to red alert and I figured it was a pirate attack. I never expected to see a Thargoid ship there because in Elite (most versions) they only ever appeared in Witchspace mis-jumps. It also released its Thargons, and they greatly sped up the process of killing me.

As for the pirates, it will get better once you have a chance to kit up, you will have a fighting chance, but some of them will still be though...

I can now usually survive (and win) a fight against 3-4 pirates, although if I'm not very careful and watching my shields, even a single ship can wreck me. On one run, I was doing good and then I got attacked by a single Asp and before I knew it, I was losing equipment and cargo.

I spent a time after kitting up turning pirates into derelicts to salvage (best money I've made in the game still ), and looking at the salvage screens once I got the derelicts to the main station, a surprising amount of them had Extra Energy Units, Shield Boosters, Shield capacitors and even Military Shield Enhancements, but few had anything better than beam lasers (I have NewLasers OXP installed, so there is quite a variety of lasers ).

I haven't installed any of that stuff. Although last night I did see the NPCs create a derelict right near the station. Don't ask me what happened, but suddenly a bunch of ships started attacking a Python inside the safe zone. I expected a massive battle with the police, but not a single Viper joined in the fight. Apparently the pilot ejected because the battle broke up and the python was left just floating there with a white marker on the radar. Everyone else ignored it. Since I'd just come from the station and saved, I armed the weapons and destroyed it. No consequences. It released a bunch of cargo, but I already had a full hold. I shot a few of them for target practice and I swear I saw an NPC scoop one of them up.

I still carry around an energy bomb and keep it primed when I jump into witchspace... got rid of a few large pirate gangs that way... even made a profit on their bounties once!

The thing I hate about energy bombs is that innocent ships often appear on the radar right as you press the button, then you get blamed for destroying them. At least you did in Elite if I remember correctly.

I stayed at 1 kill (and that kill was an accident, I fired a missile as a pirate was leaving a Rock Hermit I intended to dock into) for weeks... when I started to fight back, the most often damaged item was the forward laser (until I uninstalled LaserBooster OXP - my ship didn't have that piece of equipment, but I had the OXP installed).

For me, it always seems to be the injectors. Which have become my favorite piece of equipment sine they allow me to speed up escaping from the constant masslocks. I want to pull my hair out when I don't have them, I'm just about to get the last ship off the scanner and two police vipers appear ahead of me. ARGH!!!

I only use the aft laser if I'm running away from the fight (nowadays, as I'm parcel running, because I can't afford the time it would take to fight back), otherwise I would close up, get on somebody's 6 and use the forward weapon... I haven't tried to use the aft weapon if somebody get on my 6 in a dogfight - I don't even know if any of the AIs try that...

I used to use it all the time in Elite. Fight with the forward laser until the front shield was low, then turn away and let them chip away at the back shield for a while so the front one can recharge.

BTW, since this thread has turned in my experiences with Oolite, can someone tell me what this little round indicator is?



It's so unobtrusive that I didn't notice when it first showed up, it's not there all the time and it doesn't seem to change, it just sits there. So far I haven't been able to figure out what it does and the reference sheet doesn't show it.

[another_commander]

BTW, since this thread has turned in my experiences with Oolite, can someone tell me what this little round indicator is?



It's so unobtrusive that I didn't notice when it first showed up, it's not there all the time and it doesn't seem to change, it just sits there. So far I haven't been able to figure out what it does and the reference sheet doesn't show it.

This is the joystick sensitivity indicator. If your joystick is in precision mode (there is a button setting for this in the game's stick setup), this is green, otherwise it is gray. If you don't have a joystick connected, it doesn't show up.