SW Economy

[Krager]

Есть возможность сделать чтоб "SW_Economy" при обнаружении "More_Moolah" использовала описание товаров из него?
Либо добавить в "SW_Economy" подробное описание каждого товара, что думаю предпочтительнее)
А то товаров куча уже, и время от времени добавляются новые.
А описание к ним вообще скудные. В "More_Moolah" описание товаров значительно расширили.

Is there any reason that you can't do this yourself in your own version? The Russian version of SW Economy does not need to be a carbon copy of the English!

Причина есть. Я в програмировании не разбираюсь. Тексты в кодах нахожу интуитивно. Если что то начинает работать не правильно - начинаю переводить заново. По этой причине и обращаюсь к знающим людям.
Если мне покажут на примере, например двух-трёх товаров, как добавить описание, по аналогии попытаюсь сам добавить остальные товары и подобрать для них описания.

[Cholmondely]

Причина есть. Я в програмировании не разбираюсь. Тексты в кодах нахожу интуитивно. Если что то начинает работать не правильно - начинаю переводить заново. По этой причине и обращаюсь к знающим людям.
Если мне покажут на примере, например двух-трёх товаров, как добавить описание, по аналогии попытаюсь сам добавить остальные товары и подобрать для них описания.

Sorry. I'd not looked inside SW Economy - and you are right. It is not obvious how to do it. Stranger is back with us again, though. Why not ask him on Roolite? It should be easy for him, especially if you create the descriptions for him to add in.

There is more description on the wiki - try the pages listed here: https://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Category:Commodities

[Krager]

Нашёл ещё один вариант решения этого вопроса. Назрел момент когда дополнений стало много и необходимо вводить очерёдность их загрузки. Что решит многие проблемы без вмешательства в код самих дополнений.
Так как у нас получается игра модульная можно пойти по примеру Linux MagOS, там выставлена очерёдность загрузки модулей. просто введены цифры в начале названия файла. Так вот решение. Если сначала загрузить "SW Economy" выставить её например номер "005_SW Economy" а "More_Moolah" загрузить позднее например "010_More_Moolah" то всё работает так как мне хочется)

[Cholmondely]

The original Oolite was written for the AppleMac by Aegidian in 2003. In 2006 it was then adapted for Windows by DAJT and adapted for Linux by Winston.

So each of the main versions is a little different - and the loading order of OXPs is one of the areas where these differences show themselves.

So for Windows, it is alphabetical - and adding z's to the name of the OXP causes it to load later (eg: Oolite.oxp.zzz.Montana05.Far_Arm_Ships.OXZ).

They tell me that for Linux it is in order of the date of birth of the author's great grandmother, and that for the AppleMac, it is to do with the DNA of the author's next-door neighbour.

But who knows? Truth is, we don't know!

[Krager]

Нашёл ещё одну накладку в "SW Economy" и "More_Moolah" первая в том что "More_Moolah" должен загружаться после "SW Economy".
По своему исправил, правильно или нет, не знаю. Пишу для информации.
В "SW Economy" медицина обозначена как "medicine"
В "More_Moolah" медицина обозначена как "medicines"
Отсюда в списке товаров получаем два товара "Медицина".
Автозаменой поменял в "More_Moolah" все слова "medicines" на "medicine".
Вроде всё работает нормально.

[Cholmondely]

Cim's "SOTL" OXPs need to be loaded in a specific order.

"Song_of_the_Labyrinth_Startup_1.1" needs to be loaded first, and then either "SOTL_Exploration_0.4" or "Song_of_the_Labyrinth_Altmap_1.0". Cim somehow managed to ensure that it would happen in just that way.

I don't know how Cim did it, but perhaps Simba can work it out for you!

[Krager]

И снова возвращаюсь к совместимости двух дополнений. Если поставить "More_Moolah v1.6" чтобы он грузился после "SW Economy" тогда все расширенные описания из More_Moolah показывает по кнопке F8-F8 а на те, на которые описаний нет, беруться из "SW Economy".
Только похоже в этом случае "SW Economy" не работает. Так как даже если купить наркотики или рабов, статус на нарушителя не меняется.
Из полезного в "More_Moolah" только расширенное описание товаров. Было бы идеально их объединить с "SW Economy".

[phkb]

И снова возвращаюсь к совместимости двух дополнений. Если поставить "More_Moolah v1.6" чтобы он грузился после "SW Economy" тогда все расширенные описания из More_Moolah показывает по кнопке F8-F8 а на те, на которые описаний нет, беруться из "SW Economy".
Только похоже в этом случае "SW Economy" не работает. Так как даже если купить наркотики или рабов, статус на нарушителя не меняется.
Из полезного в "More_Moolah" только расширенное описание товаров. Было бы идеально их объединить с "SW Economy".

This is another example of why all of the Elite Trader OXP's should have been in a scenario that makes them incompatible with everything else by default.

From the  wiki entry:

None of the More Moolah goods are illegal or restricted.

Essentially, *everything* is legal with More Moolah installed. Which instantly makes it incompatible with a bunch of OXPs (many of which are mine: Bounty System, Smugglers TGU, Illegal Goods Tweak - I'm sure there are others).

Merging this this SW Economy, or indeed any other commodity-related OXP, would just compound an already messy situation. As I said before: if you like the Elite Trader OXP's, make a separate installation of Oolite and only include those OXP's in it. You can then decide what style of game you want to play: a trading-focused one, or the standard one.

[Wildeblood]

This is another example of why all of the Elite Trader OXP's should have been in a scenario that makes them incompatible with everything else by default.

From the  wiki entry:

None of the More Moolah goods are illegal or restricted.

Essentially, *everything* is legal with More Moolah installed. Which instantly makes it incompatible with a bunch of OXPs (many of which are mine: Bounty System, Smugglers TGU, Illegal Goods Tweak - I'm sure there are others).

Merging this this SW Economy, or indeed any other commodity-related OXP, would just compound an already messy situation. As I said before: if you like the Elite Trader OXP's, make a separate installation of Oolite and only include those OXP's in it. You can then decide what style of game you want to play: a trading-focused one, or the standard one.

Isn't this one of the reasons info.plist was replaced by manifest.plist (so long ago you probably don't even remember it, phkb) - to provide a method of preventing incompatible OXPs from being loaded simultaneously?

The key problem here is either "expectational" or "attitudinal", or it's a designed-in flaw in the way the expansion manager works.

[phkb]

Isn't this one of the reasons info.plist was replaced by manifest.plist (so long ago you probably don't even remember it, phkb) - to provide a method of preventing incompatible OXPs from being loaded simultaneously?

But it only works if someone manually puts the incompatibility into the manifest file. Oolite can't work it out on its own. Oolite assumes if no incompatibility is listed, it must be OK with everything. In this case, though, the Elite Trader suite makes so many fundamental changes that, instead of assuming compatibility with everything, it should assume incompatibility with everything, and the best way to achieve that is through the scenario system.

[Krager]

И снова возвращаюсь к совместимости двух дополнений. Если поставить "More_Moolah v1.6"чтобы он грузился после "SW Economy"тогда все расширенные описания из More_Moolah показывает по кнопке F8-F8 а на те, на которые описаний нет, беруться из "SW Economy".
Только похоже в этом случае "SW Economy"не работает. Так как даже если купить наркотики или рабов, статус на нарушителя не меняется.
Из полезного в "More_Moolah"только расширенное описание товаров. Было бы идеально их объединить с "SW Economy".

This is another example of why all of the Elite Trader OXP's should have been in a scenario that makes them incompatible with everything else by default.

From the  wiki entry:

None of the More Moolah goods are illegal or restricted.

Essentially, *everything* is legal with More Moolah installed. Which instantly makes it incompatible with a bunch of OXPs (many of which are mine: Bounty System, Smugglers TGU, Illegal Goods Tweak - I'm sure there are others).

Merging this this SW Economy, or indeed any other commodity-related OXP, would just compound an already messy situation. As I said before: if you like the Elite Trader OXP's, make a separate installation of Oolite and only include those OXP's in it. You can then decide what style of game you want to play: a trading-focused one, or the standard one.

Я сейчас собираю подборку дополнений заново. В подборке нет дополнения Elite Trader. В настоящий момент меня интересует ваше дополнение SW Economy которое улучшает экономику системы, и дополнительное расширенное описание товаров (для улучшения разнообразия) которое есть в пакете More_Moolah. Потому и говорю, что если в ваше дополнение SW Economy добавить расширенное описание товаров, то никакие "конфликтные" дополнения не понадобятся. А так они даже без Elite Trader (его я не ставил) не хотят нормально работать.

[Cholmondely]

It's not Phkb's SW Economy - it is Stranger's.

I prefer to play with the Stranger's World OXPs - I prefer his realism.

While Stranger was away, Phkb surrendered to my incessant requests to tweak this OXP so as to make more of Stranger's "Mining World" economies (Stranger's third economic pole). Phkb was decent enough to do this for me (increasing the prices of agricultural commodities on the mining worlds). He was also decent enough to create the "CommiesOrbitUpdate" to make sure that the Commies stations orbit the sun.

But the OXP is Stranger's. Roolite's Stranger.



Just as the "Elite Trader" OXPs are Reval's.

[RockDoctor]

Stranger expands the list of "farming products" - really I suppose, they should be called "agricultural products" to include water, oxygen and medicine.


But just as they are more expensive on industrial worlds, at least oxygen & medicine should be much more expensive on his mining worlds.

Stranger's Mining Worlds:
small radius => no atmosphere & low tech =>no ability to do anything about it: => so no atmosphere for agriculture & low tech => need oxygen
low tech => low tech machinery and lots of mining accidents as well as usual medical issues => need medicine).


I'm not so sure about the water, though - water seems cheap on RHs - lots of ice? Perhaps it is plentiful on mining worlds too? In which case the water settings are probably fine. I'm not a geologist. Rock Doctor.... Help!!

plink, plink, fizz

Sorry, been off for a while. You called?

I've lost track of the context, but ... aren't plants generally consumers of water? CO[sub]2[/sub] + H[sub]2[/sub]O --> CH[sub]2[/sub]O (*) + O[sub]2[/sub]

(*) = "carbohydrates"

In a planetary context, your masses involved - biosphere, atmosphere, hydrosphere are so large that interplanetary trade isn't really going to impinge on matters. But if you were running, say, an Imperial AstroFarm, you'd have to make sure tat your inputs and outputs add up.

The whole "asteroid mining" thing doesn't strike me as that sane. Only about 10% of asteroids in the Solar system are "metallic", which is about the same as the composition of the Earth and other rocky planets. (Yes, the Earth's core is largely iron, and half the size of the Earth. Half the diameter. So half[sup]3[/sup] the volume, which is 12.5% ; and it's significantly not pure iron.)
Concentration of elements into mineable ore bodies on Earth depends on several sequential stages of leaching of elements form being dispersed in bulk, useless rock before the element is concentrated into useful mineable ore bodies. Generally the leaching fluid is water, producing "hydrothermal" ("hot water") veins of interesting minerals, but for some minerals (PGEs, Platinum Group Elements) the leaching fluid is white-hot ultramafic melt which produces "cumulate layers of high-density minerals, including ilmenite, PGEs and olivines. I once spent a day on a train towards Norilsk, the most important such deposit in the world. Unfortunately, I didn't have a visa to enter that city, so I stopped off with my fiancée for a couple of months instead.
Theoretically, you could get PGE cumulates in a metallic asteroid - but not gold! That buggers off in the incompatible fraction of the early-melting material and rises to the "proto-crust" of a differentiating asteroid.

There is a continuum, probably, between the damper of the clay-rich asteroids and the dirtier snowballs of comets, and if you move an asteroid from, say, an outer belt orbit to an inner belt orbit (Jupiter, I'm looking at you!), it's likely to develop a coma and start looking like a comet, until it bakes off it's volatiles or covers them in enough dust to keep the Sun off the volatiles.

I'm not sure I've seen the point you're asking about.

[Cholmondely]

I'm not sure I've seen the point you're asking about.

Should water be cheap on mining worlds and rock hermits? (cheaper than on agricultural worlds)



By the way, Griff is back into asteroid production. He mentioned asteroids made of rock, of ice and of cinder. Should there be other important variants? I tried to find some pretty pictures of ice asteroids, but failed dismally.

Here is his newest: viewtopic.php?p=301645#p301645

[RockDoctor]

I'm not sure I've seen the point you're asking about.

Should water be cheap on mining worlds and rock hermits? (cheaper than on agricultural worlds)

Hmmm, six and two-threes, I think. Having a random spread with a considerable variation between worlds maybe?
Thee is quite likely to be a radial variation - more water in a band between about 0.7 a,d 1.3 AU, less interior to that or exterior to that, if you want to scale prices against orbital radius from the star.
(Corresponding, vaguely, to the proto-star cooking off water form the inner worlds, and it condensing around a "snow line" but not getting out to the outer planets.)

By the way, Griff is back into asteroid production. He mentioned asteroids made of rock, of ice and of cinder. Should there be other important variants? I tried to find some pretty pictures of ice asteroids, but failed dismally.

Here is his newest: viewtopic.php?p=301645#p301645

Pretty pictures.
Most asteroids should be "potatoes". There are only a large handful which are close approximations to spheres and one of the 5 biggest (Pallas? I'd have to look it up.) is nowhere near spherical.

The recent sample return missions to Bennu and Ryugu were something of a surprise, revealing sub-km asteroids which both had a "double-spinning-top or double-cone shape, which I believe is due to them being essentially strength-less rubble piles. That shouldn't be to hard a shape to model, and - does the drawing system allow for textures generated "on the fly"? Because their fractal grain-size distribution should be mathematically amenable to generation. There used to be something of a fad for generating "landscapes" out of 2- or 3- parameter fractal expressions.

"Strengthless rubble piles" aren't really compatible with the deep fissures in some of those pics. But that also means a less complex shape model, no?

Ah - composition. "Cinder" has very volcanic associations. Suitable for Mordor and the surface of Io. A large proportion of asteroids seem to have had a period of water-olivine interaction that has produced (long word) "phyllosilicates" or (short word) "clays" - same meaning. These seem ot make up a large part of the surface of several which we've investigated, specifically C67P/Churisimov-Guraschenko (correct speeelung "Churyumov–Gerasimenko"), Bennu and Ryugu. Many of their slopes seem to have been swept by avalanches of debris from "high cliffs" which have paradoxically low slopes compared to the gravitational field - just a few degrees, with a rock avalanche sweeping down it, scouring the landscape, maybe melting boulders of water-ice.
67P/ also raises the wonderful world of "frozen accretion" bodies or "bilobate" bodies, where two roughly spheroidal masses have come into gentle contact and stuck, but retain their two-lobe form (See also, MU69/ Arrakoth. Note the colour of Arrakoth on that Wiki page is enhanced, but not imaginary.
Bi-lobe bodies raise the interesting concept of two Rock Hermits in one body, both resenting being forced to share a spin axis. That could make for some really tricky docking ...

Anyway, it is a game, not a Solar system simulator. So you don't want to tie yourself too tightly to reality.

I haven't tried working out if Oolite's planetary orbits are randomly oriented in space, or if they adhere (more or less) to a "fundamental plane" - which in the Solar system is the plane of Jupiter's orbit. Earth's orbit is 3° off that plane, and all of the planets are within 10° of it - except poor banished Pluto out at 17°. More highly inclined orbits are more common in small bodies (asteroids, asteroid families, Rock Hermits, giving the Trader looking for cheap PGEs, olivine (gems) and under-the-counter weapons a reason to stray from the main space "(p)lanes".