(WIP) Sun-Skim Jump Gates

[phkb]

Based on the discussion here, and a variety of other places over time, the task of sun skimming fuel, particularly in systems where the sun distance modifier has been increased, is a bit tedious. The wp-sun spacelane is by default quite empty, meaning there are fewer encounters, so the travel is kind of lacklustre.

So, I've put together a quick OXP, based very heavily on Thargoid's "Gates" oxp, to play around with a concept of adding jump gates to the system along the wp-sun spacelane. The WP gate is located a little bit away from the WP itself, to prevent any accidents, and the other one is located at around 75% of the way to the sun.

In dangerous systems, or systems with a high number of dangerous nearby systems, there is a chance there will be some pirates lurking in the vicinity of their gate.

The gate charges the player 250cr to use it.

For the moment, you can download it from here: (Edit: download removed while options for making it less of an exploit are considered). I'll leave off adding it to the manager for a little while.

In-game screeny:


I haven't come up with any specific lore for these gates, other than what Thargoid put into his original. Happy to bat around some ideas, though.

I should add: gates aren't added to a system if the wp-sun distance is less than 2000km, or if the wp-main station distance is greater than the wp-sun distance.

Anyway, let me know what you think. Should the exit gate be closer to/further away from the sun? Should there be more/less lurking pirates? Is the fee too high/low? Should the gates be limited to certain systems? If so, why or why not? Or does this completely break every game system known to man, and risk destroying the space-time continuum if they are used?

Edit to add: Just thought of another important question: Does this actually help the process of scooping fuel?

[Cholmondely]

Surely there needs to be something to do at the solar end of things for this to make sense? Spending 250₢ to save 25-30₢ on fuel costs does not quite seem to cut it!



So what else might there be?

We currently have Commie SLAPU/CZGFs with cheap goods and ship's chandleries near the sun. There are the Solar Station Kiotas, and the Stranger's World Equivalents (KOS-M stations). Hathor Trade Stations. The occasional hidden Rock Hermit.

I can see the point in paying 250₢ to visit a SLAPU if the market had larger quantities and I was flying an Anaconda. But a ruinous ~10₢/TC (250₢/30TC - I always leave some space in case I fortuitously encounter nuggets of platinum!) for my Cobra means that I'll lose any profits from my SLAPU purchases. To me it only seems useful for buying ship's equipment at the splendid SLAPU discount if I'm spending a lot.

And a number of unfinished OXPs. Amaranth's Corporate Systems OXP fuel distillery stations. And then ocz's Solar Harvest OXP designed to allow poor players to earn a little money.

To make sense there would have to be enough to do at the sun to have enough traffic to make the economics feasible. And in a ooniverse riddled with pirates and Thargoids, surely they would target traffic clustering at the gates and also try and destroy the gates themselves.

But some of this might just be the prejudices of yours truly. I always add in the Free Trade Zone OXP to my OXP cocktail mix - but only ever visited one some two years ago. Looks just like a regular Rock Hermit and have to pay for the privilege! And it seems to be pot-luck if I make a profit or loss on the visit.



So what might make sense?

1) Redspear, while mulling over tweaks for his Galactic Hyperdrive Reimagined OXZ suggested that perhaps the Hyperdrive might need recharging by sunskimming, using freshly skimmed fuel from particular stars. Here is a process already expensive (5,000₢ a pop for the vanilla game drive). And if limited to handful of stars, might make commercial sense.

2) Or if - via New Cargoes - there were particularly choice items to be harvested (or manufactured) close to the sun. KickButtian Evil Juice, delicately distilled by the ravenous rays of the sun's corona from lovingly pincer-picked purple plums of perfect plurality by the devotees of the Witchspace Lobster, murmuring mediations of mystical mellifluousness down-planet on the plantations of Teorge.

3) Or missions of one sort or another (but these would only provide a reason for the player, not for a commercial investment).



Concluding Unscientific Postcript

The freedom to do what one wishes in Oolite presumably is related to that we enjoy in RL™ - if I wish to fly all the way to the sun and burn myself to a crisp skimming fuel, if I wish to jump in my car and drive several hours to Lands End to buy my petrol,...

Does everything have to be easy? Or make sense?



Amaranth's Unfinished "Corporate Systems OXP" Refinery Station:

[phkb]

Surely there needs to be something to do at the solar end of things for this to make sense?

Scooping fuel isn't enough motivation then?

Part of the reasoning for making it easier is to make it a valid choice for players. At the moment, if the sun is not in the default location, traveling to it takes a long time, and it's mostly boring travel. No one would choose to do a fuel scoop run unless there really was no other choice. By making it slightly less tedious, we open up more gameplay opportunities, potentially motivating players to try something new, and do it more regularly. And maybe inspire some other OXP devs to take up one of those unfinished projects and turn it into something amazing.

Spending 250₢ to save 25-30₢ on fuel costs does not quite seem to cut it!

In my experience, the times when I've wanted/needed to scoop fuel, cost savings were not really a factor. I was either (a) a fugitive, and didn't want to run the gauntlet at the main station, and couldn't find a RH; or (b) short on time, and needed to move quickly to make a deadline.

That said, I just kept the existing price that Thargoid used for his Gates OXP. That takes players near to the main station, which has a higher intrinsic value. To just get somewhat close to the sun has less value, so maybe a 25 or 50cr cost would be more realistic.

So what else might there be?

The possibilities for what might be placed near the sun are broad, but beyond the scope of this OXP.

[Redspear]

Firstly, good idea I think as sunskimming certainly has issues - at least one of which you have clearly explained.

Anyway, let me know what you think. Should the exit gate be closer to/further away from the sun? Should there be more/less lurking pirates? Is the fee too high/low? Should the gates be limited to certain systems? If so, why or why not? Or does this completely break every game system known to man, and risk destroying the space-time continuum if they are used?

Have you considered having the other end of the gate at the station rather than the WP? (i.e. planet/station to sun rather than WP to sun)?

• No fuel injector top-up advantage gained
• No swapping the WP-planet lane for the less dangerous sun-planet lane by default
• No need to charge very much at all for it's use (else one could just buy at the station)

Of course it's more useful to scoop upon arrival in the system (predominantly because of fuel-injectors) but it's also more problematic gameplay wise too (no longer matters how much fuel remains after a jump).

There's a whole bunch of whys and wherefores that I'm not mentioning here but I'd say there's an argument as to which end of the wp-planet lane suits it best, even if only to open up other potentialities.

[Wildeblood]

I just kept the existing price that Thargoid used for his Gates OXP. That takes players near to the main station, which has a higher intrinsic value. To just get somewhat close to the sun has less value, so maybe a 25 or 50cr cost would be more realistic.

The engineers at Aquaponics invent "jump gates", and deploy them witchpoint to planet, priced at $250. They're profitable. The boffins over at PHKB reverse engineer them and build their own. Their CEO decides to deploy them witchpoint to star, a potential business with an intrinsically lower value. At this point, the shareholders (or the cousins if it's a proprietary business) revolt, and PHKB is searching for a new CEO. The new CEO orders their jump gates to be re-deployed witchpoint to planet, priced at $249. That would be more realistic. (See also, Coles/Woolworths.)

[phkb]

Have you considered having the other end of the gate at the station rather than the WP? (i.e. planet/station to sun rather than WP to sun)?

As Wildeblood hinted at, the "Gates" OXP does exactly that, and I borrowed heavily from it to make this mod.

[Redspear]

the "Gates" OXP does exactly that

Correct me if I'm wrong here (and I may well be...)

After reading the wiki page and the start of Thargoid's relevant thread, it look like he made a gate between witch point and main station. Right!?

According to my understanding of this thread, you've made one between witch point and the sun.

I'm suggesting, as I tried to articulate above, that, rather than either of those two options a station to sun gate might be the most interesting and also the least problematic variant of this theme.

[phkb]

Sorry, I misunderstood what you’d said.

Station to sun? Hmm. I mean, the whole point of this exercise was to make fuel scooping less tedious. Having a station-sun gate would not do anything for that mechanic. I’m struggling to imagine why I would want to use it, at least without some other incentive (ie something else at the sun end). On its own, it seems a bit pointless.

And what I was aiming for was a standalone solution to the fuel scoop dilemma. And if you’re first suggestion is to move it to prevent it being used to make fuel scooping simpler, I’m guessing you don’t think this problem needs fixing.

[Wildeblood]

And what I was aiming for was a standalone solution to the fuel scoop dilemma. And if you’re first suggestion is to move it to prevent it being used to make fuel scooping simpler, I’m guessing you don’t think this problem needs fixing.

Based on the discussion here, and a variety of other places over time, the task of sun skimming fuel, particularly in systems where the sun distance modifier has been increased, is a bit tedious. The wp-sun spacelane is by default quite empty, meaning there are fewer encounters, so the travel is kind of lacklustre.

A more obvious solution would be to discourage trouble-makers from tampering with the sun distance modifier.

[phkb]

A more obvious solution would be to discourage trouble-makers from tampering with the sun distance modifier.

I think that ship sailed a *long* time ago.

[Redspear]

Sorry, I misunderstood what you’d said.

No problem, it happens.
Oh well, I tried to be brief...

Station to sun? Hmm. I mean, the whole point of this exercise was to make fuel scooping less tedious. Having a station-sun gate would not do anything for that mechanic.

This assumes that the only reasonable time to sccop fuel is upon system entry. And further suggests that having scoops likely means having working injectors as I intimated here:

Of course it's more useful to scoop upon arrival in the system (predominantly because of fuel-injectors) but it's also more problematic gameplay wise too (no longer matters how much fuel remains after a jump).

I’m struggling to imagine why I would want to use it, at least without some other incentive (ie something else at the sun end). On its own, it seems a bit pointless.

Firstly, I agree, having a black market station or similar orbiting the local star would be an example of a simple addition that could encourage traffic - oxp territory I admit but this is already an oxp, right?

Secondly, it removes the problem of the player avoiding most of the traffic of the WP-station route by default.

While I appreciate that some already choose to do this, it remains a choice. Travel through a jump-gate to the sun however and the player is now on the much quieter (from memory at least) sun-station lane. A nice choice perhaps but the only way back to the WP-station lane (for those who might prefer that) is another 250Cr or travelling the very same long journey that this oxp was designed to avoid in the first place.

If it realy is a quieter lane then that sort of makes fuel scooping itself a bit redundant:

• You want more fuel so that you can dodge more pirates
• You scoop from the star to top up your fuel
• However you're now on a lane that has less pirates and therefore requires less fuel to dodge them anyway

To be clear, this oxp doesn't cause those issues but it does remove the encounters with most of the WP-sun traffic - again, not that there's much of that but without it the player who sun-skims from the WP encounters very little.

By default the player with injectors likely needs less fuel to get to the star relatively safely than to travel directly to the station in comparative safety. Encounering less traffic is required in order for this to work. Once at the star, the player can face the rest of their journey with a full tank. So sun-skimming by default requires two sparseely populated lanes to travel to the station but with a top up in the middle.

Using this oxp (and the gate) however it becomes just one sparsely populated lane wih a full tank at the very beginning.

And what I was aiming for was a standalone solution to the fuel scoop dilemma. And if you’re first suggestion is to move it to prevent it being used to make fuel scooping simpler, I’m guessing you don’t think this problem needs fixing.

The problems from that post were "both" the travel time and the difficulty of scooping itself.

I don't see how my suggestion does anything to prevent making fuel scooping simpler, it only assumes that there is some utility in doing so when at least one of these things is true:

• the player does not have functioning injectors
• the player would (at least occasionally) find it more fun to scoop for fuel than pay for it

If the latter seems silly, then consider that one of the two problems described above very much remains, and that neither this oxp nor my first suggestion have as yet done or proposed anything to remedy that.

[phkb]

To be clear at the outset, this is about fuel scooping only. Not about other stations or activities that may be near the sun. That is the issue this OXP is primarily trying to address.

I think it all this comes down to what we consider the root issue is. At present, making a choice at the WP to scoop fuel at the sun rather than head to the station and buy it is a choice between (a) a long and boring run to the sun, with maybe as few as one encounter to deal with, or (b) a rather more interesting run to the station, with a lot more encounters that could have serious side effects. And the choice becomes even less of one if you've made any change to the sun distance. A fuel scoop run could mean anything up to 10-20 minutes or more of watching a large white globe get steadily closer.

From a gameplay point of view, choice (a) is not fun. Choice (b) is more fun, but you have to ask, is the player really going to consider these valid choices? If you know something is going to be long and tedious, would you ever choose it? (Aside: I guess FDev must have thought so, given the number of long and tedious grinds in Elite:Dangerous! ) In my experience, fuel scooping is hardly ever warranted, and only in a couple of edge cases.

So, as I see it, the options to addressing the fuel scooping issue are:

(1) Do nothing, and leave things the way they are. This option is choosing to minimise fuel scooping entirely to once-in-a-blue-moon type of activity. And that might be a fair enough choice, depending on what you want in your Ooniverse.

(2) Make the WP-sun route more fun with more encounters. I'm pretty sure there are OXP's that do this already. But you have to then ask three questions: (1a) Is extending the trip to the sun, and the time it takes to get there, going to be more fun for the player, if their primary goal is to scoop fuel? (1b) Is it realistic to have so much extra traffic on the WP-sun route? and (1c) If players know there are more encounters on the WP-sun route, aren't they just going to do what they've been doing on the WP-planet route, heading at right angles to the route to get off the lane?

(3) Reduce the amount of time it takes to reach the sun. Norby's Torus to Sun Drive does it one way I think, by speeding up your Torus. This OXP is another way, and at least keeps the player on the WP-sun lane, if only for the last 25% of it.

Honestly, all these issues circle back to the whole "staying on the lane" issue we've had since lanes were a thing. I don't think there's one answer to any of it.

but the only way back to the WP-station lane (for those who might prefer that) is another 250Cr or travelling the very same long journey that this oxp was designed to avoid in the first place.

If I'm making the choice to scoop fuel, rather than head to the station, in 99 out of 100 cases I won't want to go to the station anyway. I just want to top up my fuel and jump. I think the choice of fuel scooping so as to have a safer run to the main station via a fuel-injected escape plan is not common. And maybe that's the implied assumption in this OXP: if you're fuel scooping, it assumes you're on your way out of the system anyway.

That said, if you did want to make the choice to scooping fuel before heading to the main station, there is a simple solution with this OXP: make the gates one-way. ie. you can't get back to the WP from the sun end. If you want to go back, you have to go the long way.

If it realy is a quieter lane then that sort of makes fuel scooping itself a bit redundant:

You want more fuel so that you can dodge more pirates
You scoop from the star to top up your fuel
However you're now on a lane that has less pirates and therefore requires less fuel to dodge them anyway

I think this is assuming you want to stay in the system and get to the main station.

Using this oxp (and the gate) however it becomes just one sparsely populated lane wih a full tank at the very beginning.

Making the gate one-way would address some of this.

I don't see how my suggestion does anything to prevent making fuel scooping simpler, it only assumes that there is some utility in doing so when at least one of these things is true:
the player does not have functioning injectors

If I get to the main station with broken injectors or no fuel to feed them, and I was presented with the choice of going through a gate to the sun, or docking, I'm choosing docking every time. I've already done all the hard work to get to the station. Why make my life more difficult with a fuel scoop run at this point?

the player would (at least occasionally) find it more fun to scoop for fuel than pay for it

If the latter seems silly, then consider that one of the two problems described above very much remains, and that neither this oxp nor my first suggestion have as yet done or proposed anything to remedy that.

It's not silly, and it's precisely the lack of fun in fuel scooping that started this process. I think, though, that by reducing the tedium in the current fuel scoop process, this OXP is making it slightly more fun. And going through a gate is fun anyway!

Anyway, I'll update the OXP shortly with a reduced cost and a one-way system, and see how that plays.

[phkb]

Sun skim gates 1.1 is now available via the link in the first post.
Now only 25cr to use, and it's a one way trip.

[Redspear]

To be clear at the outset, this is about fuel scooping only. Not about other stations or activities that may be near the sun. That is the issue this OXP is primarily trying to address.

Right, and to do so without side effects would be desirable, am I correct?

I think it all this comes down to what we consider the root issue is.

Very true and in respecting your oxp I'll keep it to the initial concerns from the recent post you linked to:

• As a choice, fuel scooping is:
  • time consuming
  • difficult/frustrating

And this oxp addresses the second of those two concerns:

(3) Reduce the amount of time it takes to reach the sun. Norby's Torus to Sun Drive does it one way I think, by speeding up your Torus. This OXP is another way, and at least keeps the player on the WP-sun lane, if only for the last 25% of it.

If I'm making the choice to scoop fuel, rather than head to the station, in 99 out of 100 cases I won't want to go to the station anyway. I just want to top up my fuel and jump. I think the choice of fuel scooping so as to have a safer run to the main station via a fuel-injected escape plan is not common. And maybe that's the implied assumption in this OXP: if you're fuel scooping, it assumes you're on your way out of the system anyway.

If you're talking about yourself then that's fine, I can't argue with that but I know of at least one player whose used it as a way to get to the station when running with damaged systems or a few very valuable crates of cargo many more times than they have to leave the system.

Because it's a game of course we are free to choose what we consider to be fun as well as what might be considered to be wise.

That said, if you did want to make the choice to scooping fuel before heading to the main station, there is a simple solution with this OXP: make the gates one-way. ie. you can't get back to the WP from the sun end. If you want to go back, you have to go the long way.

I think you've missed my point here.

The oxp as described makes it hard/expensive/an odd choice to return to the WP-planet lane. Consequently, you've made the 'top-up the injectors' strategy more rewarding.

This is the side-effect I referenced above and actually in my earlier posts as well.

If the darkness of the line correlates with how dangerous the route is then this diagram represents the default situation when the player has injectors.



Why do I see the WP to Star route as more dangerous than the Star to station route? Because once they've scooped fuel they have a full tank and injectors. Of course if they don't have working fuel scoops then this doesn't work but then one likely wouldn't be attempting it.

So do you see that this oxp would remove most of the danger from that strategy?
And do you further see that making the gate strictly one way serves to exacerbate rather than remedy the situation?

If the player wants to cheat/make things easy then there are lots of ways, I'm not blaming this oxp for that BUT if someone wanted to use this oxp and still have some risk in their sunskim to station choice then a more appropriate fix would be to make the charge for the gate one way rather than the direction of travel.

So if the player wishes to return to the more risky WP-station lane (with the benefit of having a full tank with which to do so) then don't make them pay for it with either a fine or an aditional time consuming journey that they used the gate to try to avoid in the first place.

I think this is assuming you want to stay in the system and get to the main station.

Right, that's certainly the assumption with regards to the exploit.

Using this oxp (and the gate) however it becomes just one sparsely populated lane wih a full tank at the very beginning.

Making the gate one-way would address some of this.

Only, I think, to make it worse as I've tried to explain above.

If I get to the main station with broken injectors or no fuel to feed them, and I was presented with the choice of going through a gate to the sun, or docking, I'm choosing docking every time. I've already done all the hard work to get to the station. Why make my life more difficult with a fuel scoop run at this point?

Bingo.

This oxp only addresses the travel part of the problem and to be clear, that's fine. So if sun-skimming really is a chore then we have a much bigger problem: players generally don't want to sun-skim even when their ship is well equipped to do so.

Part of this is that fuel is generally so cheap of course, so the risk to reward ratio is pretty high. None of this is in any way the fault of this oxp rather it is relevant to the issues that this oxp is attempting to address.

There are a number of logical reaons why the gate might be placed at the station end but this is a game so one can always handwave around those.

the player would (at least occasionally) find it more fun to scoop for fuel than pay for it

If the latter seems silly, then consider that one of the two problems described above very much remains, and that neither this oxp nor my first suggestion have as yet done or proposed anything to remedy that.

It's not silly, and it's precisely the lack of fun in fuel scooping that started this process. I think, though, that by reducing the tedium in the current fuel scoop process, this OXP is making it slightly more fun. And going through a gate is fun anyway!

Yes, using the gate would be fun but sadly (to some at least) not the scooping.

Seeing as we're dealing with cost here already (gate use) is it wildly out of place to suggest a gate at the station to the star, free to use and add the cost to the fuel at the station instead?

The gate takes you right up to the star, and is likely how fuel is bought to the station in the first place. Fuel is only more expensive where the gates are found and those gates are only found where sun distance is particularly high.

-----

I'm genuinely sorry if any of this seems overly negative or confrontational as certainlyy neither were my intention but the misunderstandings along the way haven't helped.

It seems that brevity deesn't suit me... sadly

[Wildeblood]

Given my circumstance (I do not play Oolite), I'm genuinely very hesitant to involve myself here, but...
...Could I suggest an alternative strategy to solving this (non-)problem...

...An equipment item (and bear in mind, I consider allowing equipment OXPs possibly the biggest mistake in Oolite), let's call it something like a "hyperdrive programmer", that would allow a pilot departing system A for system B to target either (1) the witchpoint beacon, or (2) the star directly.

If the pilot chose option (2), their ship would materialize in system B near the star, pointed directly at the star, nine times out of ten-ish at a safe distance. But sometimes it would materialize very near the star. Add in a mission screen when they buy the equipment, that blathered about needing to agree to a liability waiver and increased insurance premiums. Voila! Problem solvered.

BTW, what happened to the mode settings for the galactic hyperdrive? They used to be in planetinfo.plist, but I see they're not there anymore. #AskingForAFriend

BTW2, am I right in thinking the WPS triangle is always on the x-y plane, so twiddling the z-position of any object with any large number will always move it away from everything else?