What now?

[mandoman]

I was flying around, back and forth between Diso, and Leesti, in my trusty Cobra Mark III, just trading, and minding my own business, until this last time I docked at Leesti. Man, I forgot I even had the Asteroid Storm oxp still installed. I haven't played it for months, and I can't remember how it's suppose to turn out. According to the ReadMe.txt, it should be a winnable mission, but I have restarted to mission four times now, destroyed the humungous asteroid every time, using a Killit Super Misslie (on which I blew every credit I had, just for the sake of that Q$#%@#$ station), and Leesti High still goes boom, every time. Also, after each time, I pick off a few more asteroids, waiting for some sort of message that the mission is concluded, but nothing more happens. Will I be labeled a coward if I leave Leesti? What is suppose to happen next? If that game is winnable (and I only have 50 kills to my name with the Cobra Mark III), I'll be pracked if I can figure out how.

Never mind, I figured it out........again. Sheesh!

[Fatleaf]

What you need is four military lasers and a couple of cheap 30cr missiles. As soon as you launch target the big rock fire your two missiles and just unload all four lasers into it and keep turning to fire a half cool laser once you have red lined the current one. It gets close to the station but I get it every time with that tactic.

[mandoman]

What you need is four military lasers and a couple of cheap 30cr missiles. As soon as you launch target the big rock fire your two missiles and just unload all four lasers into it and keep turning to fire a half cool laser once you have red lined the current one. It gets close to the station but I get it every time with that tactic.

Haven't got the funds for military lasers, yet. Like I said, I bought one Supermissile four different tries, and took out the asteroid every time, but the station still went up in flames. That's without the asteroid hitting it. It doesn't matter. It was actually a good thing for the career of my Cobra Mark III pilot. It sent me looking for another trading setup. I found Onrira, a tech level 14 Industrial planet, and Erlaza, a mostly Agricultural planet, but much lower tech level. Man, I'm buying tech stuff, like computers, cheap from Onrira Station, and selling it for a huge profit at Erlaza. It's a better set up than Diso, and Leesti.

[Eric Walch]

What you need is four military lasers and a couple of cheap 30cr missiles.

In Oolite are plain missiles useless against very big objects. Because of the way oolite calculates the damage, the damage done reduces with the size of the target. It was actually with this specific rock that I noticed the effect. Shoot ten missiles at such a rock and than read out the damage. Almost zero.

Military lasers are also not needed. A very inexperienced commander gets a weaker rock to deal with. Beam lasers should not be a problem there, although it was never mend that this mission would be successful at the first try.

Like I said, I bought one Supermissile four different tries, and took out the asteroid every time, but the station still went up in flames.

That is because the oxp tries to prevent cheating. At the time of writing this oxp there was only the energy bomb and that is removed on launch. In the current version there is a check about the energy damage used to give the rock the final blow. When that is far beyond the normal weapons capacity, the code assumes that the resulting explosion is so big, that the debris thrown out is still destroying the station.

Maybe that last part must become more explicit with its own message. When I added that code there did not exist such a super weapon but it was only a matter of time it would.

[DaddyHoggy]

That's brilliantly clever Eric - Well Done - pre-empting the super-weapon - genius!

[ClymAngus]

Nix the oxp, leave the system. Reinstate the oxp.

Sure we could have a long talk about "just try a little harder" and "perseverance" but are you here to have fun? Or be tested? I treat it like one of those lateral thinking game within a game problems; when in doubt Kirk it.

[Micha]

That's brilliantly clever Eric - Well Done - pre-empting the super-weapon - genius!

Not entirely sure I subscribe to that. While it's nice that the difficulty of the mission scales with the experience level (and possibly fitted equipment) of the commander, artificially turning it into a no-win situation feels cheap. So what if somebody blows a (presumably expensive) super-weapon on it to complete the mission?

although it was never mend that this mission would be successful at the first try.

I'm also not sure that I would like missions which are designed to be failed on the first go and have to be replayed. People playing 'realistically' (ie, without reloading when things go pearshaped) will feel cheated.

In Oolite are plain missiles useless against very big objects. Because of the way oolite calculates the damage, the damage done reduces with the size of the target.

Finally, missiles doing less damage on a large object? Sounds like a bug.. Without looking at the source code, I'm guessing the damage is calculated based on distance squared from object, and (I'm guessing) distance is calculated based on center of object.


All IMHO, of course. I thoroughly enjoyed this mission - although it might have been an earlier version. I'm fairly certain I managed to complete it successfully on my first attempt.

[Micha]

Without looking at the source code, I'm guessing the damage is calculated based on distance squared from object, and (I'm guessing) distance is calculated based on center of object.

Hmm, no, should be ok - collision radii are taken into account. Admittedly not the most precise method esp for large objects, but missile damage -should- be the same irrespective of size of object.

[mandoman]

Well, you are all obviously better at such missions than I. I admit that I was rattled. The only thing I could think of was to buy the most powerful missile I could find, whether it broke me, or not, and destroy the giant asteroid. If buying a missile that is openly for sale on the Station Market is cheating, then the option needs to be removed. As for the "no win" situation on the first try.......I agree with Captain Kirk as well, even though there IS such a thing in reality. It must be possible, as Micha managed to do it. It isn't that I didn't like the adventure, it's the feeling that I did what I thought I could, and it wasn't enough. That's a bit frustrating. I said that I went out four times with a Supermissile to destroy the rock, but now that I think back, it was only three times. The first time I went out, I had just reached the station when the siren went off, and that message about the asteroid showed up. I got so flustered that I just relaunched, and started shooting at asteroids. You notice I didn't say THE asteroid, because it wasn't there. I flew all about the general area of the Space Station, and never once even saw an asteroid that size heading for the Space Station. After shooting every asteroid I could find for fifteen minutes straight, I got tired of it, and went into the Space Station to finish my business. When I relaunched, the situation had not changed a bit. There were still asteroids coming, but no big killer asteroid, so I jumped back to Diso. I was informed that because of me (why that should even be in any script is beyond my understanding) leaving without destroying the Super Asteroid, and saving the station, Leesti High was destroyed. Then I was labeled a coward, and told to press "Space". That definitely was NOT what I expected, and it pissed me off. So I didn't save the game, shut down, restarted with the Shift key pushed down, and went back to the asteroid storm. THAT is when I decided that a Supermissile should do the trick, IF the asteroid showed up, which it did on my next three tries. After the third time, I decided I'd had enough, and went back to Diso. As soon as I docked at Diso, the same siren that went off at Leesti went off, and I was thanked for my efforts and told to flee, as the station was doomed. That was weird. When I went back to Leesti, the Space Station was still gone, so I went on to the next system, and then did a map search for a close by trading route similar to Diso, and Leesti. As I said, I found one very close by, and am now making more than I ever did trading between Diso and Leesti.

I like shooting asteroids, and often use them for target pracitce. The experience didn't do me a bit of good at Leesti. I have taken on whole packs of pirates with my Cobra Mark III, and won the fight, even if I did limp off the field with several blown out items. I think I have faced numerous tough situations, and learned from them to come out better the next one that came along. I didn't get that sense at Leesti. I'm sorry, I just don't feel like playing the same mission over, and over, and over, until I finally figure out the way to blow up an asteroid in a way that won't cause the mission to fail. That's not why I play the game. It's the flying from system, to system, trading, defending myself and others (occasionally), and saving my credits for a better ship, though it's kind of hard to beat the Cobra for the price. OK, I've had my say, and I'm sorry if I stepped on the toes of creator of that mission. It's a good one. Exciting, dangerous, and if played right, obviously satisfying. I didn't play it right. So what else is new.

[Switeck]

Exciting, dangerous, and if played right, obviously satisfying. I didn't play it right.

That's perhaps too strong a "message" to get from what I thought was an early mission.

[Eric Walch]

That's brilliantly clever Eric - Well Done - pre-empting the super-weapon - genius!

Not entirely sure I subscribe to that. While it's nice that the difficulty of the mission scales with the experience level (and possibly fitted equipment) of the commander, artificially turning it into a no-win situation feels cheap. So what if somebody blows a (presumably expensive) super-weapon on it to complete the mission?

In Oolite 1.65 the main station was destructible by a q-mine so that use would kill the mission on its own. In later versions the main station became indestructible and I think that I only added that test of big damage in one hit to detect that situation. In current Oolite there are explicit tests to determine if a kill was by a q-bomb. But I left the old check in. I never realised we already had such powerful, non-quirium, missiles. I don't like the use of superweapons, specially so close to the main station. I now added code that generates big debris from the asteroid, ejected towards the station. That will better explain the station destruction when the big one was killed by a super explosion.

Finally, missiles doing less damage on a large object? Sounds like a bug.. Without looking at the source code, I'm guessing the damage is calculated based on distance squared from object, and (I'm guessing) distance is calculated based on center of object..

When I noticed the strange non effectiveness of missiles against this rock, I completely dug out the code without finding any reason. That was two years ago. Looking at it last week suddenly showed me the reason:

The code uses "distance-to-centre^2 - radius^2" to calculate the distance to the surface. Problem are the squared values that are used to speed up the calculation.

Lets say that:
R = radius
T = distance-to-centre
D = distance to the surface

By definition is T = D + R

The calculation uses : T x T - R x R.

Replacing T by R + D in above equation gives (R + D) x (R + D) - R x R.

That is R x R + 2 x D x R + D x D - R x R

That is: 2 x D x R + D x D

You see that there still remains a radius dependent component in the formula that calculates the damage when bringing it back to a fixed distance to surface. For one D value the result still changes with changing radii.
Its a bug that only becomes visible against objects greater than most standard objects. But I don't want to change anything in the damage calculation before a 1.76 release because it would change the missile damage as we had it since the beginning of Oolite. When you make it the same for small objects, it will change for big objects. (And vise versa)

[mandoman]

In Oolite 1.65 the main station was destructible by a q-mine so that use would kill the mission on its own. In later versions the main station became indestructible and I think that I only added that test of big damage in one hit to detect that situation. In current Oolite there are explicit tests to determine if a kill was by a q-bomb. But I left the old check in. I never realised we already had such powerful, non-quirium, missiles. I don't like the use of superweapons, specially so close to the main station. I now added code that generates big debris from the asteroid, ejected towards the station. That will better explain the station destruction when the big one was killed by a super explosion.

I don't use Super Missiles when flying the Cobra. I can't afford them, for one thing. But after having been called a coward, and then urged to throw myself at that asteroid to save the station, I decided self sacrifice must be what the mission was about, so I did what I could think of to do. One simple solution to making sure superweapons aren't used is to take them out of the game. Period. If such a weapon is offered, it's going to get used. Blasting a giant asteroid that is about to smash into a busy Space Station seemed like a perfect solution to the problem to me. As for the debris from the missile explosion heading toward the station, well, I don't have your math skills, but when I launched those missiles I was coming from the station, toward the asteroid. If I'm not mistaken, anything that causes that kind of explosive damage will radiate the debris out away from it's point of origin, especially in a void. If anything, the explosion should have destroyed other asteroids coming in from the sides, and behind, as well as any ships within the immediate vicinity of the blast. Oolite is not realistic. That's just a fact, and it doesn't bother me in the least. If I want realism, I just shut down the computer and go back to life as it is, or turn on the news to see what horrible thing has happened in the world lately, or even in my own neighborhood. Witchspace (worm holes) is just theory. Hyperspace goes against Einstein's laws of relativity. Without some kind of gravity dampener, men would be squashed by such speeds, even in space. Which, by the way, is why I like Larry Niven's idea of the Kzin (Jotok) gravitic polarizer engine. This not only allows their spacecraft a place in Oolite, it actually puts a damper on them. While their engine allows them to reach speeds up to %80 light speed, they do not have faster than light capability, such as Hyperspeed, and wormhole technology. Their motor allows them incredible speed in Einsteinian space, and because of the gravity equalizing effect inside their ships, they can turn on a dime without harm to the passengers. It would be a formidable craft, and I have been toying with the idea of them as an unknown enemy of the Thargoids, and have their ships show up during major Thargoid attacks on human worlds, causing pandemonium. Of course, the player would have to have a very high rating to experience such a battle.

Whatever, it's all make believe, no matter how hard you try to make it as realistic as possible, which is why I like it.

[Micha]

You see that there still remains a radius dependent component in the formula that calculates the damage when bringing it back to a fixed distance to surface. For one D value the result still changes with changing radii.
Its a bug that only becomes visible against objects greater than most standard objects. But I don't want to change anything in the damage calculation before a 1.76 release because it would change the missile damage as we had it since the beginning of Oolite. When you make it the same for small objects, it will change for big objects. (And vise versa)

Ooops, right you are. My vote would go towards fixing it though. IMHO it shouldn't matter whether a bug has been there since the year dot or only since yesterday. In this particular case, since the change would be barely noticed for 'normal' sized objects it shouldn't affect most gameplay anyway.
Then again I'd also fix the Anaconda's cargo capacity...
Not my decision though - but definitely something to keep in mind.

[Zieman]

Then again I'd also fix the Anaconda's cargo capacity...
Not my decision though - but definitely something to keep in mind.

Ah, I'd keep Anaconda's cargo capacity as it is, but I'd fix Cobra mk III's speed back to 0.30 LS, to keep some basics true to ELITE.

[Disembodied]

Ah, I'd keep Anaconda's cargo capacity as it is, but I'd fix Cobra mk III's speed back to 0.30 LS, to keep some basics true to ELITE.

I think there were some good reasons for cranking the Cobra III's speed up – not least the fact that in Elite, the merchant ships you passed were travelling away from the planet, rather than towards it, and so you weren't masslocked for nearly so long. Of course, I always did wonder where they were going ... Anyway, I'd be very wary of undoing what was obviously a deliberate amendment, merely to keep pace with the original game. This is probably the biggest advantage to be had from changing the Torus drive to a properly functioning TAF, by the way: by disposing of the masslock problem, it would make slower ships playable. The range of playable ships would be greatly expanded, without having to constantly cram faster and faster ships into the top of the speed range.