Save game@non-main stations(nms) & contracts@nms bug

[DaddyHoggy]

just skimming this, but it seems there's a little misinterpretation going on (maybe it's by me, lol) :

Not a misinterpretation, no – but this is why it would be such a departure from canon. It would mean turning the Anarchy systems, including their stations, into regions outside of Co-op control.

The gameplay appeal would be that these systems, and their stations, could become places where Offender and Fugitive players could save their games in peace and quiet, and be able to enjoy a criminal career without having the rather jarring issue of being the galaxy's Most Wanted but still being able to stop off in a station supposedly under GalCop control.

If you want a rationale, perhaps the war against the Thargons is going rather badly, and the Co-operative is starting to fracture under the strain ...

Or simply, having been driven out of the station by the Anarchists/Pirates - Galcop want the station(s) back (and their massive investment), however, having lost pilots/troops in several (too small) raids which also resulted in civilian casualties (those "trapped" on the station(s)), Galcop have temporarily "backed-off". The systems remain on the Galcop chart because of their political or trade route significance and because of the bad-press and political turmoil that would be caused if they dropped the system off the chart and removed the witchpoint beacons and began a jump computer purge. Something that would inevitably make the situation worse, because criminal ships have usually deliberately by-passed the Galcop Nav Computer Jump Computer Critical Updates and Validation Checks, so vital to the safe trading and jumping of the "average Joe" trader.

In the background GalCop are fighting a political war, secretly funding one side (or multiple sides) in preference to others through covert and untraceable means, in the hope that either 1) a single force that can then be negotiated with emerges from the Anarchy 2) the in-fighting results in a depleted series of pirate forces that could be overwhelmed by a more significant GalCop (with Naval support) and as well as regaining dominion over space, a more stable political system could emerge planet side (denied of course given that GalCop doesn't interfere with planetary politics) with GalCop "support"...

[Cody]

because criminal ships have usually deliberately by-passed the Galcop Nav Computer Jump Computer Critical Updates and Validation Checks, so vital to the safe trading and jumping of the "average Joe" trader.

Love it!

[Smivs]

because criminal ships have usually deliberately by-passed the Galcop Nav Computer Jump Computer Critical Updates and Validation Checks, so vital to the safe trading and jumping of the "average Joe" trader.!

"Welcome to 'Patch Tuesday'. Unfortunately during this Automatic Update cycle Galcop Genuine Advantage has detected a problem with your system and has had to close this application. Your Nav Computer has been disabled until further notice".

[DaddyHoggy]

[Killer Wolf]

thing is, my understanding is - as i said - the system spaceways are anarchic, not the whole thing. each system is, of course, a planet w/ a sun, serviced by a station. if GalCop "backed off" and left a station under enemy control, doesn't that by implication mean they're leaving everyone on the planet in the cack? especially so if they cut off the beacon and don't let traders through. i can't imagine anyone wanting face the political backlash of THAT decision.

i like the idea of a "posse" being assembled tho. If the Navy are engaged in bug fights, then it makes sense that a general call might be put out to all bounty hunters etc.

[DaddyHoggy]

Pirates want one thing - to be rich and powerful.

The two things a pirate wants is to be rich and powerful and feared.

The three things a pirate wants...

Anyway, Pirates drive GalCop out - no organised political will/structure planet side to do anything about it.

Pirates control station and therefore trade to and from planet - they charge want they want/can - effectively cutting out the middleman (GalCop). It's a safe(ish) option because the planetary system was already fairly chaotic and therefore there's unlikely to be any effective resistance to this above surface regime change...

[Disembodied]

thing is, my understanding is - as i said - the system spaceways are anarchic, not the whole thing. each system is, of course, a planet w/ a sun, serviced by a station. if GalCop "backed off" and left a station under enemy control, doesn't that by implication mean they're leaving everyone on the planet in the cack? especially so if they cut off the beacon and don't let traders through. i can't imagine anyone wanting face the political backlash of THAT decision.

Hmm ... the political backlash might amount to no more than a handwringing letter from the Galactic Mothers' Association for the Uplift of the Benighted and Malodorous or some other worthy cause. I think most of the galaxy has its own issues – diseases, solar activity, vicious arts graduates, etc. – to worry about.

It all depends on how you picture the Co-operative. If you see it as a strong, capable, active government, then obviously it will vigourously contest any attempted criminal takeover of a system. If, however, you see it as an incompetent, often corrupt, threadbare organisation that has almost no effect on anyone living under an atmosphere (i.e. 99+% of the galactic population), then it'll be less able to cope with such an event.

[DaddyHoggy]

thing is, my understanding is - as i said - the system spaceways are anarchic, not the whole thing. each system is, of course, a planet w/ a sun, serviced by a station. if GalCop "backed off" and left a station under enemy control, doesn't that by implication mean they're leaving everyone on the planet in the cack? especially so if they cut off the beacon and don't let traders through. i can't imagine anyone wanting face the political backlash of THAT decision.

Hmm ... the political backlash might amount to no more than a handwringing letter from the Galactic Mothers' Association for the Uplift of the Benighted and Malodorous or some other worthy cause. I think most of the galaxy has its own issues – diseases, solar activity, vicious arts graduates, etc. – to worry about.

It all depends on how you picture the Co-operative. If you see it as a strong, capable, active government, then obviously it will vigourously contest any attempted criminal takeover of a system. If, however, you see it as an incompetent, often corrupt, threadbare organisation that has almost no effect on anyone living under an atmosphere (i.e. 99+% of the galactic population), then it'll be less able to cope with such an event.

I'm with the big D with this one!

(to name drop ever so slightly - when I was interview Dwight Shultz once - we got talking about Star Trek and Babylon 5 - his answer about the future of Mankind was quite prosaic - "We will aim for Star Trek and land in Babylon 5")

[Killer Wolf]

well, i guess if you imagine a shadowy presence behind the GalCop front, who mighta financed the pirates for a secret agenda...or just pure corruption making someone align w/ them (i was watching "Gangs of New York" last night, lol).

re Dwight, whether you take that quote as positive or negative depends what you're a fan of
maybe we should aim for Soylent Green

[Smivs]

maybe we should aim for Soylent Green

my vote's for Buck Rogers in the 25th Century....Bleepy, bleepy

[Commander McLane]

I am with the canon and Killer Wolf's interjection. The stations are run by GalCop, and in all cases independent of the system government. The main difference between the political systems is the amount of influence and control GalCop can assume outside the aegis, which is practically none in Anarchies. In any case it would be stretching credibility too much to assume that GalCop has been pushed out of 1/8 of its member worlds.

Also I'd like to remark that I wouldn't use "anarchy" and "piracy" interchangeably. Those are very different things (although of course what an Anarchy is is never defined in Elite/Oolite), and to assume that they both are the same seems flawed to me. Why should each and every Anarchy be controlled by pirates? Actually, why should any Anarchy be controlled by pirates? Isn't the point much more that, due to the anarchic state of affairs on the planet, the planetary government(s) has/have no sufficient means to fight piracy in their system? But that doesn't make them associates of the pirates. Think Somalia. The lack of government causes anarchy and a lack of security as well. Therefore pirates can flourish without fear of prosecution. But they are by no means in control of the government themselves, nor do they control the markets (which is the main purpose of stations in Oolite). So, while it is fair to say that piracy is profiting from an anarchic state of affairs, it cannot be said that the pirates are identical with the anarchic government.

And by the way, if we assume a pirate haven capable of smoothly running a main station with its markets, equipment stores, shipyards, information facilities etc., it would have to be well-organized, and it would need a leadership structure. In other words: it would not be an anarchy anymore.

[DaddyHoggy]

I am with the canon and Killer Wolf's interjection. The stations are run by GalCop, and in all cases independent of the system government. The main difference between the political systems is the amount of influence and control GalCop can assume outside the aegis, which is practically none in Anarchies. In any case it would be stretching credibility too much to assume that GalCop has been pushed out of 1/8 of its member worlds.

Also I'd like to remark that I wouldn't use "anarchy" and "piracy" interchangeably. Those are very different things (although of course what an Anarchy is is never defined in Elite/Oolite), and to assume that they both are the same seems flawed to me. Why should each and every Anarchy be controlled by pirates? Actually, why should any Anarchy be controlled by pirates? Isn't the point much more that, due to the anarchic state of affairs on the planet, the planetary government(s) has/have no sufficient means to fight piracy in their system? But that doesn't make them associates of the pirates. Think Somalia. The lack of government causes anarchy and a lack of security as well. Therefore pirates can flourish without fear of prosecution. But they are by no means in control of the government themselves, nor do they control the markets (which is the main purpose of stations in Oolite). So, while it is fair to say that piracy is profiting from an anarchic state of affairs, it cannot be said that the pirates are identical with the anarchic government.

And by the way, if we assume a pirate haven capable of smoothly running a main station with its markets, equipment stores, shipyards, information facilities etc., it would have to be well-organized, and it would need a leadership structure. In other words: it would not be an anarchy anymore.

We know all that - but I - and I think many - want a sensible - practical solution to the stupidity of having to dock at a Main Game station (even if you're a fugitive) just to save the game - that's not conducive to an immersive experience just an annoying reminder to a limitation of the game engine. The current set-up does not allow for a life of crime that is believable - and it should - Anarchies irrespective of the Pirate/Anarchy interchangeability issue (I think Pirate systems became a generic easy to use catch-all and not the de facto standard of Anarchic systems) are an easy target and the most obvious political type to bend to rectify this flaw.

A compromise - GalCop has only a tenuous grip on an Anarchy system - in the hope of eventually dragging the Anarchy system towards a better political system GalCop operate a near-blanket Amnesty on all criminal levels in the hope that somebody, anybody will trade with this system - thus supplying argi-Anarchies with the machinery and equipments needed to turn their badly organised farming communities into a better and more productive system and Mech-Anarchies get enough food so that the population doesn't fight over what little food they grow/import...

[Kaks]

About stupidity / engine limitation, I do take exception to that: in my Ooniverse GalCop actively tries to discourage piracy by forcing every pilot to come back to a galcop controlled station if they want to survive at all.

It's a plot device used by quite a few stories: you're given a a slow-acting 'untraceable' poison, and if you don't take the antidote within 24 hours you're dead. To get the antidote, you need to toe the line.

In the Ooniverse it doesn't have to be poison, or nanites, or whatever else. There just needs to be a rumour that people who haven't docked to any GalCop station at least once a month, tend to disappear forever, even if they maintain their ships spotlessly using other stations' facilities...

There could be hundred of conflicting 'explanations', with smug GalCop representatives stonewalling them all with well-rehearsed health & safety/m$ update speeches...

If anyone wants to be a famous 'career' criminal, fine. But that means they risk being shot every time they go back for their 'treatment'.

No game breaking, everything internally consistent, thank you very much!


If you think about it, GalCop is interested in keeping trade going, only in its own terms. Piracy - at least visible piracy - does tend to discourage trade somewhat. ( before anyone asks about visible: I've met quite a few people on these very boards that have indulged in the odd act of privateering or two, and never got flagged as outlaws... magic! )


PS: still, if anyone wants to spend weeks adding a proper 'save at every station' code for 1.75, please do!
By the sound of it, you'd have quite a few grateful 'customers' !

PPS: - and totally my opinion, by the way - the 'engine limitation' is most likely due to other developers not seeing the whole save game area as a major concern: after all, I was the only person motivated enough to actually add an autosave option to Oolite...

[Cody]

Very interesting thread… some great background story ideas.

Not all fugitives are pirates, brigands or slave runners… there are a few ‘honest’ contrabandistas like me out there, simply supplying a market. I don’t deal in slaves or firearms, only in narcotics, and then only in the ‘right’ systems and circumstances. I don’t attack clean ships and ‘relieve’ them of their cargo (unless they attack me first, of course… as far as scanner traces go, ‘if it’s red, it’s dead’). Unlike a covert privateer (also an interesting career), I can’t avoid fugitive status, which leaves me three choices… fight my way in to the station and dock manually, leaving a few dead Viper pilots in my wake… not really to my taste, and not guaranteed to be successful… or clean up a couple of systems and get back in GalCop’s good books… or make good use of zero and very close distance doubles, jumping in and out repeatedly, doing some skimming, ’til my status drops to offender, or even clean. This can take some time, and is rather limiting, but never dull. The occasional station where I could dock unmolested would be very nice… but I manage. Ahh… what a game, eh!

I have this odd memory from the Elite days… I’d jump into an anarchy system, with a hold full of narcotics (yes, I was a contrabandista, even back then), knowing that I’ll get top dollar for them, but expecting the usual trouble. Instead I’d get an ‘honour guard’ of sorts … a couple of bandits away on my nine, a couple off on my three… they’d leave me alone, always keeping their distance, but tracking me all the way in-system. I got the distinct ‘impression’ that they wanted this ‘consignment’ to reach the station (yeah, I know… deep immersion, but that’s what this game has always been about). This became a fairly regular thing, not just a ‘one off’. You’ll probably tell me that it was my just imagination… that I’d got cockpit fever and npcs don’t behave like that, and you’d probably be right, but…

Sadly, I’ve had to run clean for a while lately, due to broken spectacles and the ensuing problem of not quite being able to focus on the screen properly… it really degrades heavy combat ability. I’m itching to get back to my miscreant ways… but this game has so much to offer, whichever career path you choose, and be it pirate, trader, hunter or contrabandista… or any combination thereof, they are all great… and they are all valid careers within the game.

[DaddyHoggy]

@Kaks - no slight on the Dev team was intended.

BUT, even somebody who, when he plays, never shoots at anything unless cornered and never trades in anything illegal, I still think its nuts that you must dock at a main station to save the game. This isn't a back-story, handwavium, nanobot-engine-munchers, or some such, it's simply the way the game is designed (and I understand that but I don't have to like it!).

I think I, and others, have simply advocated (via an OXP) a mechanism that allows the career criminal a place to call home that allows them to save the game at a main station and Anarchy systems, while not perfect, seem the most likely candidate for such tweaking to occur.

Cdr McL, KW et al have some valid and well argued points, but, for Cdr McL in particular, there are lots of OXPs he won't install because it breaks the immersion of his Ooniverse - that's fair enough - and he thinks a save-anywhere (literally anywhere rather than any station and I agree) is kind of cheating (I hope I'm not sound-biting you unfairly Cdr McL - you just had the best counter-argument) then this would just be another OXP, where criminals had somewhere to go (ie. save their game!) with a moderate amount of impunity (which I believe in something as big and diverse as the Ooniverse would occur).

As a non-criminal I don't even want this for me! So, as everybody knows, I can't script for toffee, but if some of the more clever OXPers want to do this and would like some background stuff, short stories etc to justify the handwavium then I'd be happy to help out.

Right, sadly RL(tm) calls and I'm off to a funeral...