Explicit normals discussion

Frame · Post by **Frame** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:53 pm

Moderator: Split from the Progress thread. Also, I messed it up and lost the post quoted (in full) at the top of this one.

Frame wrote:
in regard to this, I would like to clarify that this does not give you automated free smooth groups it just basicly fixes some lightning issues with non smoothed models..

Just in case anybody should ponder about that..

Cheers Frame...

infact a quick test run shows that it does not bind the textures
nor store smoothing groups in the dat file using the updated converter tool

is this expected behaviour ?

overlooked the texture part, however if we want smooth groups we would need to set include_face_normals to 1 Right ?

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:07 pm

Frame wrote:
overlooked the texture part, however if we want smooth groups we would need to set include_face_normals to 1 Right ?

No. If you include normals in your DAT, 1.74/trunk r2989 or later will ignore face normals completely. It will also ignore smooth groups and the smooth attribute.

This should be pretty clear if you understand what smoothing does: it calculates normals for each vertex as a weighted average of the normals of the faces that share the vertex. (If there are smooth groups, one normal per vertex/smooth group pair is calculated using only faces in that smooth group.) In the “old” unsmoothed mode, each vertex on a face shares the same normal.

So, again, using explicit normals means you’ll get the same normals as in your 3D editor. In Wings, for instance, you can manipulate normals with the edge hardness tools and preview them by exiting workmode (press Tab or the flat shading/smooth shading button in the toolbar).

Oh, and to take one step further back, for anyone who needs it: a “normal” is the (nominal) direction perpendicular to a surface, or to put it differently, the axis around which light is reflected.

Using the actual normal of each polygon inevitably produces a faceted appearance. Smooth shading averages the normals at each vertex and interpolates them across the surface, so they vary in the same way as on a curved surface.

Frame · Post by **Frame** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:25 pm

Ahruman wrote:
Frame wrote:
overlooked the texture part, however if we want smooth groups we would need to set include_face_normals to 1 Right ?
No. If you include normals in your DAT, 1.74/trunk r2989 or later will ignore face normals completely. It will also ignore smooth groups and the smooth attribute.

This should be pretty clear if you understand what smoothing does: it calculates normals for each vertex as a weighted average of the normals of the faces that share the vertex. (If there are smooth groups, one normal per vertex/smooth group pair is calculated using only faces in that smooth group.) In the “old” unsmoothed mode, each vertex on a face shares the same normal.

So, again, using explicit normals means you’ll get the same normals as in your 3D editor. In Wings, for instance, you can manipulate normals with the edge hardness tools and preview them by exiting workmode (press Tab or the flat shading/smooth shading button in the toolbar).

Oh, and to take one step further back, for anyone who needs it: a “normal” is the (nominal) direction perpendicular to a surface, or to put it differently, the axis around which light is reflected.

Using the actual normal of each polygon inevitably produces a faceted appearance. Smooth shading averages the normals at each vertex and interpolates them across the surface, so they vary in the same way as on a curved surface.

well I do not see smooth groups handled properly anywhere I get this result with svn 2990

Code: Select all

include_face_normals	= 0		# If 1, per-face normals are generated for Oolite 1.73 and earlier. If 0, file is smaller.
pretty_output			= 1		# If 0, optimize for size and loading speed. If 1, use more legible format.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn18 ... format.jpg
Moderator: large image linkified.

obj file

Code: Select all

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f 114/152/114 98/136/98 113/135/113
# 224 faces

g

Dat file

Code: Select all

// output from Obj2DatTexNorm.py Wavefront text file conversion script
// (c) 2005-2010 By Giles Williams and Jens Ayton
// 
// original file: "globe.obj"
// 
// model size: 100.000 x 100.000 x 100.000
// 
// materials used: ['debugRed.png']
// 
NVERTS 114
NFACES 224

VERTEX
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-3.57744, 46.19398, 14.70104
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-17.10735, 46.19398, 9.09676
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-17.10734,-46.19398,-17.96304
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-3.57744,-50.00000,-4.43314

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someone should split this to somewhere else..

clearly something is wrong...

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:59 am

Frame wrote:
well I do not see smooth groups handled properly anywhere I get this result with svn 2990

That is a problem with triangle winding (which is… interesting). It has nothing to do with smooth groups. There are no smooth groups in a file with explicit normals.

Alex · Post by **Alex** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:25 am

Hi Commanders,
Errrr, aint this stuff just a wee bit technical for us that play and try to understand a wee bit of what goes on behind the scenes?

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:37 am

Alex wrote:
Errrr, aint this stuff just a wee bit technical for us that play and try to understand a wee bit of what goes on behind the scenes?

If you aren’t modelling, you may safely ignore it.

If you are modelling, you really do need to understand what normals are and what smoothing actually does, although the new feature actually means you need to think about them less than before.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:33 am

I just did a quick test, sending my escape capsule obj through the new Obj2DatTexNorm.py script, i'm seeing the triangle winding errors too

I'm going to try again with a simpler model (an edge beveled cargo pod) just incase these winding errors come from bad modeling habits of mine in the escape capsule mesh

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:46 pm

Oolite is supposed to fix winding automatically (if the normal for a given face points “inwards” as determined by winding, the winding is reversed), but this has always been somewhat unreliable. It seems to be worse with explicit normals (where the average normal for each face is used).

Since explicit normals require various changes to loading behaviour anyway, I think I’m going to remove the automatic winding adjustment, and put that responsibility into the converter tool. It will have three modes: retain winding, reverse winding and auto-winding (similar to what Oolite currently does). Since most modelling tools export faces with consistent winding, one of the first two modes will generally do the right thing while the other will be consistently wrong (producing an inside-out model).

I probably won’t have time to change it this weekend, though.

Background: winding refers to the order in which a polygon’s vertices are specified, clockwise or counter-clockwise. This triangle has counterclockwise vertex winding, while this one has clockwise winding. If you go around the back of a triangle in 3D space, its winding as seen from your point of view reverses.

Oolite defines counter-clockwise winding as “outside” and clockwise winding as “inside”, which is conventional, but the converter flips windings as a side effect of changing coordinate conventions, so models imported from Wings are always inside-out until they meet the auto-rewinder.

Since models are assumed to be manifolds (i.e., enclose some space), Oolite avoids drawing the inside faces (“backface culling”), which is why you get holes.

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:49 pm

I have identified the long-standing logic error that causes the incorrect winding. However, it’s so long-standing that fixing it may conceivably affect existing models. My inclination is to leave it as it is, but require files with explicit normals to have consistent winding “baked in” and handled by the tool, which can then implement both the legacy algorithm and a fixed one.

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:48 pm

Implemented in r2993.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:25 pm

been busy whipping up a oxp with an edge bevelled barrel with some hard edges specified in wings:

works great, no triangle winding errors but there seems to be some lighting problems on the top and bottom surfaces, they flick from being lit by sunlight into deep shadow really abruptly - note: this was only tested with revision 2990 - i just spotted Ahruman has been busy re-coding, i'll update my trunk install and re-test

download here for testing the oxp (works properly with the latest trunk builds only): http://www.box.net/shared/nny31t3ah6

Post by **Eric Walch** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:35 pm

Confirmed that is now works with all models. I took the .obj file and converted the same file with the old and your new converter.
Original conversion of the dredger shuttle on a mission page.

The new converted model on a mission page

With credits for the texture and normal maps to capt. Berf

Post by **another_commander** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:15 pm

I can confirm the lighting issue reported by Griff. The barrel's top and bottom surfaces are passing from light/dark to dark/light in a very sudden way. Also - and I may be wrong on this - it does not look like the normal map for one of the two sides is applied at all (or is it a very "soft" map?), while the rest of the barrel looks correctly normal mapped. Again, it could just be my perception, a confirmation (or not) of this assertion would be nice.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:25 pm

i think the normal map problem is my fault, i need to invert the tones in some sections of the original texture before sending it through the photoshop plugin -basically on some faces the 'bumps' are 'dips' and the 'dips' are 'bumps' - at least i think that's what the problem is.

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:29 pm

There seems to be a problem with tangent generation, which primarily affects normal-mapping shaders.