Weird universe!

[jkn]

Oolite v1.73.4 Ubuntu 9.04:

Galactic chart 2:
From Xeisare to Teonan 6.8 ly, 46.2 h.

From Xeisare to Legeara 2.8 ly, 7.8 h
From Legeara to Teonan 3.6 ly, 13.0 h
2.8 ly + 3.6 ly = 6.4 ly

(I tried trunk version, but it did not start)

- jkn

[Kaks]

It's a well know witchjump phenomenon, and one that never ceases to amaze & stupefy!

Which trunk revision have you got problems with?

[Micha]

If you're trying to say that two shorter hops being significantly shorter time-wise than a single long hop is weird, then you've misunderstood the way wormholes work.

Time does not increase linearly with distance where wormholes are concerned.

[PhantorGorth]

Oolite v1.73.4 Ubuntu 9.04:

Galactic chart 2:
From Xeisare to Teonan 6.8 ly, 46.2 h.

From Xeisare to Legeara 2.8 ly, 7.8 h
From Legeara to Teonan 3.6 ly, 13.0 h
2.8 ly + 3.6 ly = 6.4 ly

(I tried trunk version, but it did not start)

- jkn

I don't think the issue was just the time but the distance as well. In euclidean space (which on this scale the real universe is) it is impossible in a triangle to have one side longer than the sum of the length of the other two sides.

For jkn's benefit: This is due to rounding downs done in the distance calculations which is kept in to make Oolite as faithful a reproduction of Elite as possible.

[JensAyton]

I don't think the issue was just the time but the distance as well. In euclidean space (which on this scale the real universe is) it is impossible in a triangle to have one side longer than the sum of the length of the other two sides.

The five-dimensional space used by witchspace drives, however, is awesomely curvaceous.

[jkn]

In euclidean space (which on this scale the real universe is) it is impossible in a triangle to have one side longer than the sum of the length of the other two sides.

Also in non-euclidean space straight line is shortest distance between two points!

I tested oolite_1.74.0.2787-0jaunty~trunk1_i386.deb. I'll try again later.

- jkn

[treczoks]

Also in non-euclidean space straight line is shortest distance between two points!

The problem is that the Oooniverse witchspace distance calculation algorithms are based on the original Elite ones, and emulate them down to the bit, including the rounding errors.

When I first tried this distance calculation myself I got some mathematically correct results that stubbornly refused to match known data from the Ooniverse. The original formula does some odd roundings, which tend to add up to nearly a lightyear per jump occasionally, IIRC.

The "explanation" for that is that witchspace is even worse than non-euclidiean space on that behalf, which should not surprise if you can move FTL through it. In witchspace, a straight line might even be the longest distance between two points...

So, basically, it is not a weird universe, but just a weird witchspace.

Yours, Christian

[jkn]

The problem is that the Oooniverse witchspace distance calculation algorithms are based on the original Elite ones, and emulate them down to the bit, including the rounding errors.

I accept that. Original Elite was was written for a computer which had 32 kB RAM (including display and floppy controllers). I have one:)
So rounding errors are not a surprise.

I'm not sure if duplicating that is a good idea. Some planets might become inaccessible...

The "explanation" for that is that witchspace is even worse than non-euclidiean space on that behalf, which should not surprise if you can move FTL through it. In witchspace, a straight line might even be the longest distance between two points...

I don't know much about geometry, but I remember that straight line is defined to be shortest distance between two points. What else could 'straight' mean in curved space? Einstein said that gravitation is not a force, but curvature of space. So satellite orbiting earth moves in straight line in space-time. 4-dimensional space-time is curved. This explains everything doesn't it?

So, basically, it is not a weird universe, but just a weird witchspace.

But map distances must be normal Ooniverse distances. Distances through wormholes are shorter. Wormholes use extra dimensions, so distance can be shorter than straight line in normal space. One can travel in wormhole slower than speed of light, but arrive before light using normal space would. This would also make time travel possible.

Nearest star is 4.3 ly from the Sun, next one 6.0 ly and third 7.7 ly. So distance scale is well chosen.

- jkn

[DaddyHoggy]

I'm not sure if duplicating that is a good idea. Some planets might become inaccessible...

As the systems are laid out exactly as they were found in the original 8-bit versions then all the systems that were inaccessible in the 8-bit versions are still inaccessible in this version - that's the point!

See here for more details: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=6053

After all you can play Oolite in Strict Mode - sans oxps and just like the original

[Cmdr James]

I think I remember a change about a year ago that changed galactic jump behavior which means that all systems are accessibile one way or another. But I could be wrong.

[DaddyHoggy]

I think I remember a change about a year ago that changed galactic jump behavior which means that all systems are accessibile one way or another. But I could be wrong.

It's not the default though is it? I can't remember - and while it leaves the inaccessible bits accessible that could still leave you subsequently trapped if one of the systems lacks the ability to sell you a new Gal. H.drive.

[Kaks]

It's not the default. And if it's overridden by an OXP to make some inaccessible bits suddenly accessible, it's up to the OXP maker to make sure that there are no places where the player could be effectively stuck.

[Frame]

it's up to the OXP maker to make sure that there are no places where the player could be effectively stuck.

Now what is wrong with that

in my book it would be the same as "Game Over"..

[Cmdr James]

it's up to the OXP maker to make sure that there are no places where the player could be effectively stuck.

Now what is wrong with that

in my book it would be the same as "Game Over"..

Its game over, but you may not realise until you saved over your last working save-game.

Seems unfair to trap players like that.

[Kaks]

Besides, all it takes to get the player unstuck is to increase the tech level of one of the planets to make it possible for the player to buy a galactic jumpdrive.

Alternatively, there could be an elaborate backstory, one that ends up awarding the player a galactic jumpdrive after the player performs some improbable tasks for the local bigwig. Or something!