Leaving, too.

[Lestradae]

I am leaving, too.

The reactions to RS/OSE/OE have made it obvious that any sort of bigger meta-oxp or oxp-bundle is not socially possible in this sort of community nor this sort of climate.

There are some people here who sit on their stuff as our beloved mega-corporations do it, calling anyone who tries to do something combining that "untrustworthy", "in bad faith", "disrespecting the feelings of others", "idiot" etc. etc. to name but a few.

I have no idea why and what for some of the "ruling elite" of devs and oxp-makers feels that threatened about the idea of an oxp bundle, and I no longer even want to know. I have the impression that this is less about the "feelings" of said people here, but more a flamewar of some who want to cement their status on this board.

Some try to depict the situation now that I simply ignored the wishes of people who's stuff I wanted to include - but that is an outright lie. The flames that started every moment I publicly did anything on this meta-oxp idea (like these last ones now) effectively prevented exactly that in many cases - and some of you know that when I was contacted, I usually did as asked and got rather cooperative.

A big, cooperative oxp-bundle is simply impossible in a climate of outright hate, petty jealousy and throwing spanners into the works at every opportunity - which I do think is all that this is actually about.

I am pulling out all my work. There will be no player stations, no realistic shipyards pricing, no combat computers, special system or any other stuff I provided or were about to provide. I am sure the players of Oolite will thank the guys I'm writing about a lot about that, too. RS was downloaded 5300 times. But I am sure this is completely irrelevant and means nothing, while what the ten entrenched elite oxp-makers here say does.

Some of you people really must be broken in the head somewhat. (Please don't delete this admittedly inflammatory statement here, admins, it's the last and only one you're going to read from me here ever again. It simply has to be said this once.) I take the only viable route out and see to it that that won't be one of my problems in the future.

L

PS: There are quite a few people here who are really friendly, cool, nice, respectful, agree-to-disagree-able, helpful guys and gals with other ways of solving conflicts than bullying. You know who you are. To you, I say thanks for the journey, and hope you continue to find joy and entertainment in whatever you do.

[pagroove]

See my comment in LB's leaving thread. Sad for both of you. Good luck

[Selezen]

Sorry to see you go, dude. Yeah, we had our differences but we sorted it out AFAIK.

If this is what you have to do then fair enough. I feel that you could have bent a little and had some come and go with the situation, but you walk your own path.

RS will remain a significant milestone in Oolite's development, no matter what issues were raised because of it.

Take care, and apologies if I caused any offence.

[DaddyHoggy]

I am sorry to see you go L - while RS and OE was never my thing I was happy with lots of your ideas and I was happy to contribute in my own tiny way.

You leave behind a legacy of not only "pushing the boundaries" of Oolite OXPing (in size and complexity if nothing else) but oddly, bringing the licensing and the cooperation issue to a head may not have been such a bad thing.

What I feel is strangely ironic by your own maxim is that it doesn't matter that you pull the plug on OE, there are enough copies out there (even amongst your testers) that unless you issued a license or got them to enter a non-disclosure agreement - which I doubt as you seem to be very anti this for everybody else's oxps then people are free to hack about with OE take out all the argumentative/contentious oxps leave behind the "fun" stuff - Oobay trading, buying stations and release it as OE-lite and, by the sword on which you have chosen to fall, there's nothing you can do about it. Weird eh?

[Makara]

I have been watching this debate with mounting horror - not least because a comment of mine seemed to be the final straw. So I'm going to throw in my 2 credits worth as a relative newcomer to both Oolite and this board.

I'm not going to comment on who is in the legal right in this debate. While the various permutations of licences, or their absence, can make for interesting discussion they should be relegated to the background. This is a community of enthusiasts who all want to both enjoy the game itself and add to others' enjoyment of it if possible. Waving the book of rules around should not be necessary for people who share this common goal.

I suppose one thing that needs agreeing on is where the dividing line is between personal and public versions of an OXP. Several of the OXP's I have are no longer fresh from the box (pun intended ) with little tweaks I have made to them. I hope none of the OXP authors would object to my having made these tweaks as long as they remain on my own hard-drive. I have also discussed some of these tweaks on this board. Although this is a public forum, I still consider this to come under the heading of personal, as these are merely ideas as to how people may wish to change their personal versions of an OXP - there is still the official version there via the wiki and it is understood that once you have changed a personal version of an OXP any problems that result are entirely your own fault.
Now if I were to start distributing these tweaked OXPs to folk who requested them we'd be entering a grey area. I'd still lean towards this being personal but will be interested in others' opinions on it. Even further into the grey area would publicising these tweaked OXPs on this board. And finally we have them being added to the list of OXPs on the wiki - which is undoubtedly public.

As a way forward I'd suggest that we regard that only OXPs listed in the wiki be considered public. All other levels of distribution being personal. The author (or someone who had adopted an orphaned OXP) would only be responsible for the public version - not that they would necessarily have to do anything about problems with it but they shouldn't be troubled with reports of problems with the personal versions. Then a simple criterion for an OXP being listed on the wiki page would be that its inclusion in (not exclusion from) ones AddOns folder does not prevent the inclusion of other OXPs from the wiki list by design. Of course there will still be clashes between combinations of OXPs but these should be regarded as problems to be overcome rather than being a case of having to choose one OXP or the other.

This approach would not rule out the existence of meta-OXPs. Such an OXP could either include existing OXPs with it being made clear that the meta-OXP was a personal rather than public release (and so excluded from being listed on the wiki). Alternatively it could have other OXPs listed as pre-requisites and do interesting things with their outputs. The onus for keeping this latter type of meta-OXP would then fall squarely on the shoulders of its author - although I'd hope that the author of the pre-requisite OXP would give assistance in making adjustments to the meta-OXP (when the pre-requisite OXP is altered) there would be no moral obligation to do so.

Anyway, all this blather aside, seeing two respected members of the board leaving over this misunderstanding is deeply regrettable. LittleBear's OXPs are up at the top of most peoples' "must have" lists and Lestrade's vision of an Ooniverse where you can pilot any ship you see while keeping the internal logic consistent is an admirable one. Sadly the internet doesn't yet have a decent equivalent to a chat down the pub where this could all be sorted out over the beverage of your choice. But I really hope that feathers will unruffle and we can all find a template to move forward and keep making this game better.

(posting in both "Leaving" threads to maintain even-handedness )

[Commander McLane]

The onus for keeping this latter type of meta-OXP would then fall squarely on the shoulders of its author - although I'd hope that the author of the pre-requisite OXP would give assistance in making adjustments to the meta-OXP (when the pre-requisite OXP is altered) there would be no moral obligation to do so.

As an OXP-author whose works may get included into meta-OXPs, I have to say that this would depend entirely on the meta-OXP in question.

First of all I have strong doubts about the usefulness of meta-OXPs as such. While it may make sense to combine e.g. various station variants into one OXP, from my perspective it makes no sense to bundle more than that. After all, the very purpose of the OXP system is that the player gets to choose how they want to expand on their Oolite. If all OXPs are bundled together, what is the difference to including them all into the Oolite code itself, and completely remove the ability to make OXPs? And then we call the resulting game "Oolite 2", and the player has to take it as it is, without being given any choices.

Therefore, if I think that the meta-OXP in question is useful (which in most cases I won't), I might consider helping to keep it up to date, if it contains some of my stuff. This would require me being as proud of the meta-OXP as I am proud of my own creations; and it is clearly on the meta-OXP's bundler's side to make me this proud of his/her creation, and make me willing to continuously contribute to it. In other words: he/she should be able to sort of let me take ownership (mentally, not legally; I hope I am making myself clear here) of his/her meta-OXP, and let me see it as a common cause worth contributing for.

But, if I don't think that the meta-OXP in question is useful, if I even for good technical (not personal) reasons dislike it, or think it damages Oolite, why should there be any obligation at all on my part to support it in any way? Bad enough that my own work through its incorporation is now used to harm Oolite, and that I can't do anything against it. But actively supporting it? Even being seen anywhere near it? %R* beware!

My whatever-much ₢.



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*) insert deity from the Ooniverse here