is there a such thing as evasive maneuvers?

[punkbohemian]

I'm getting ganked left and right, and I can't figure out why. It seems like no matter how I move, hostiles are nailing me with every hit. I mean, considering how slow this game is (it's the slowed flying game I've ever played), evasive maneuvers should be easy. Furthermore, I'm faster than the ships taking me down, but I apparently can't even outrun them (and yes, my throttle is all the way up). Not only that, but there's no menu screen in space, so I can't even reload when I've been ambushed (because I'm pretty much doomed anyway). Instead, I have to waste time and watch myself get blown up.

I'm already getting frustrated with this game. I'm on my third attempt at the same jump, the first ending with a bad dock, and the second ending with an ambush. And there's 30 minutes of play time wasted right there. Having to do the same jump multiple times happens frequently, too. It wouldn't be so bad, but it takes <i>forever</i> to get anywhere, even if you're dodging trading lanes.

[DaddyHoggy]

Where are you trying to get to?

With a brand new pilot at Lave I can load up with 17TC of Food - target Leesti, F1, Full throttle, hit 'H', 15 sec later arrive at Leesti, Find planet, accelerate full throttle, pull up a bit to get away from main space lane and hit J, no other ships, mass locked on planet eventually - aim for nav bouy of main station (this bit is a bit slow before you get injectors), fly right up to nav buoy, spin round, aim at docking port, half throttle, match spin with station, straight into dock, sell food, now have 212Cr in the bank - time delta on RL clock - 6 mins 9 secs.

Are you OXP heavy? Are you using OXPs that make it difficult for shiny new Jameson? Are you jumping to non CS or Democracy systems?

Some pilots/pirates are better shots than others and the Cobra Mk3 is a big ship.

[Captain Tylor]

Have you got Deep Space Pirates i your OXP`s as it adds ambushing pirates outside of the Space Lanes.

If so i recomend you remove it until you have Beam Lasers, Extra Energy Unit and Fuel Injectors as an absolute minimum to give you a fighting chance in a fight.
Trust me the Game gets better as time passes

[Screet]

Furthermore, I'm faster than the ships taking me down, but I apparently can't even outrun them (and yes, my throttle is all the way up).

If the pirates are equipped with Fuel Injectors, you cannot outrun them until they burned their fuel. It's working like an afterburner in common jets, just with witchdrive fuel. If you manage to get the spare money, buy them yourself and be sure to make jumps short enough to keep a fuel reserve. Then you can outrun them, as faster ships also gain more speed when using injectors.

I'm on my third attempt at the same jump, the first ending with a bad dock, and the second ending with an ambush. And there's 30 minutes of play time wasted right there. Having to do the same jump multiple times happens frequently, too. It wouldn't be so bad, but it takes <i>forever</i> to get anywhere, even if you're dodging trading lanes.

Wait...if you are flying outside the trading lane, there are no other ships, with the exception of you installing Deep Space Pirates while you are not equipped to fight them. In plain oolite, there's only emptyness outside the lanes! A trip from one station to another station should take approx. 2 minutes then.

Maybe you did not go far enough outside the trading lane, thus you did encounter ships from it? Also, don't forget to use the "J" key for torus drive - it's increasing your speed dramatically, but only for as long as no other ships are around. Even if you avoid the lane initially, you might come too close to it when you come near the station. It typically helps to fly a curve, not direct, so that you approach the station without ending up in the final part of the lane.

I myself had only 4 kills at the time I had earned enough money to equip my ship with everything a good tech world would have to sell, because I was flying outside the lanes. I just did not have to fight until my ship was ready for it.

Concerning evasives...sometimes I change my course a bit because of too heavy incoming fire, especially things like turning around and using my rear laser if the front shield is down, or vice versa. With a military laser, it's most often me who can deal more damage, even if the enemy ship has me in it's sights. Should you ever consider flying a very fast ship (some oxp packages come with such), it's often possible to follow an enemy ship in it's engines exhaust. In that case, they most often won't ever come into a firing position again. Few ships do have rear lasers, but even then it's often easy to avoid being hit when flying in that constellation.

Should you get a joystick with jaw control and enough in-game money for side lasers, it's also nice to fire with those, as that typically leaves the enemy in a position where he's rarely in a firing position. It does require some training to do it, so don't be frustrated if you're more often missing than hitting in the beginning. At least that's time for the front laser to cool down

Screet

[punkbohemian]

Where are you trying to get to?

Just a few places around Lave. I'm not whizzing off into anarchy sectors or anything. I'm also not OXP heavy. I got a couple of texture/sound mods, Your Ad Here, a few extra ships, and some missions (Local Hero, Long Way Around, and Random Hits). I only just added the missions though. I do not have Deep Space Pirates. In fact, I'm intentionally avoiding it because it already takes too long to get anywhere.

With a brand new pilot at Lave I can...

I'm doing the same thing. It easily takes at least 10mins per jump, and that's assuming nobody interferes with my torus flight. In that case, it easily takes twice that. Frankly, I think torus kicks off way too soon. I'd rather it didn't kick off at all. Unless I'm docking, I could handle a ship that fast all the time.

If the pirates are equipped with Fuel Injectors, you cannot outrun them until they burned their fuel.

So I'm basically screwed in these situations? If so, there should really be a seppuku/reload option mid flight. I think I'll have to visit the suggestion forum.

Even if you avoid the lane initially...

I'm very conscientious about curving around the lane. I veer perpendicular to the destination for at least 15 seconds at torus speed before gradually arcing around.

Concerning evasives...

I'm starting to think the problem is the combination of lasers having a range of 15000km and hostiles all apparently having dead aim. I'm using keyboard controls for everything, and I can't hit **** at 15000km. Even with a joystick, hostiles are barely visible at that range. But, what's happening is they're either in front of me and I can't close the gap before getting snuffed, or they're behind me and I can't outrun them, so they pick me off.

Should you get a joystick with jaw control and enough in-game money for side lasers...

I was wondering about that. I wasn't sure if side lasers actually shot out to the sides, or if they were just placed on the side of the ship (but shot out the front). I was hoping the latter. I didn't learn to fly in the Compton Nebula, so I don't see myself doing a whole lot of drive-by space fighting.

[overmage]

I had your problem till I decided:

Screw roll, yaw thrusters all the way!

Now I play with only dive/climb and yaw. No roll. I find it much easier to take on and run from pirates that way.

[mr_wigster]

Hi Mate,

I think everyone plays the game differently as far as battle tactics go. If you identify a threat approaching, there are two ways of dealing with them that I find helpful - either slow to a stop and try and shoot them from long range, before they get too close and can shoot you accurately. Another alternative is to fly past them, turn quickly and follow closely behind them - this should mean they can't strike you while you do have the chance to attack them.

Good luck - let us know how you get on.

Wigster.

[punkbohemian]

Screw roll, yaw thrusters all the way!

Yeah, I've been doing the same thing. Roll is pretty useless as (direct) evasion. What I've been doing is a yaw/pitch combination. If I had a joystick, I would do a yaw/roll maneuver (a corkscrew, which would be a little more effective than a yaw/pitch), but it doesn't matter. I've watched hostiles fighting CPU fighters and figured out how they target and I see why evasive maneuvers are so ineffective. Basically, that the laser is projected from the dead center of the ship (in terms of the trajectory between shooter and target) and it's deadly accurate (a perfectly still ship hits the same point every time, regardless of range), and all hostiles target the center of the target. The skill of the pilot only offsets the latter, an not by much. So, a highly skilled pirate locked on his target's six is going to hit the dead center of the thrusters every time. A less skilled pilot isn't going to be that accurate, but they'll still hit the right side of the rear hull, or a wing.

This is further exacerbated by the range of the weapons and how distance seems to have little to no effect on a CPU pilot's accuracy. At 15000km, a CPU pilot has to do very little correction to stay on target. You might be yaw-pitching like a madman where you are, but from 15000km away, it only looks like a slight shift (especially considering how remarkably slow the ships are). So, the CPU can correct its aim faster than your ship can maneuver.

As for me getting on, I'm on the fence. I also was less thrilled by some of the more substantive elements of the game (the planets, the economy, etc), though all of them I can address when/if I (eventually) make my own OXP. However, there's probably not much I can do about AI and weapon function.

[Diziet Sma]

Sounds like you're starting to get the hang of combat.. I have just a couple of small observations to add about your posts on this topic though...

From the sound of it, you may not realise that the 3 different types of lasers in Oolite have different ranges... a pulse laser is only effective up to about 5km (I think), whilst beams are midrange weapons, effective to maybe 12 or 15 km, and military lasers to the full 25 km or maybe a little more.. which leads to my second point, several times you have said things like "but from 15000km away"... in actual fact, the maximum range of your scanner is only 25km, or 25000 metres. Even with the farsun.oxp installed, it is a lot less than 15000km from the witchpoint beacon to the local star...

This may also have something to do with your perception of ship speeds being so slow... distances in Oolite tend to be kinda flexible, compressed in some cases, and not in others.. unfortunately, if the game actually worked to scale, things would be much more boring... a trip from witchpoint beacon to planet could take hours, and as for sun-skimming.. well..

[punkbohemian]

First...

several times you have said things like "but from 15000km away"

That was a goof on my part. I mean sure, all measurements are abstractions in video games, but for the sake of arguments, that distinction is important. Everything I said still stands though, I just mean meters instead of kilometers.

Sounds like you're starting to get the hang of combat..

Yeah, but I'm currently not too thrilled over it. It feels more like I'm playing Atari than an immersive game. I've read other threads on battle tactics, which might be a bit of an overstatement since there are really only two tactics: 1) snipe them before they snipe you or 2) close the distance and ride their six.

From the sound of it, you may not realise that the 3 different types of lasers in Oolite have different ranges

I didn't realize that, but a 25km ranged laser is just insane. I can't even see ships at that distance.

unfortunately, if the game actually worked to scale, things would be much more boring... a trip from witchpoint beacon to planet could take hours, and as for sun-skimming.. well..

If we were optimizing for realism, then yeah, but I'm not talking about that. Let's face it, we have pilots flying around in spaceships shooting weapons-grade laser beams at each other, then flying into the sun to refuel. The premise throws realism out the window. What I'm talking about is better gameplay. At this point, this probably belongs in the suggestion forum, but I think this game needs a) faster ships b) shorter ranged weapons/closer combat c) better AI and d) better physics.

[Lestradae]

Try Realistic Shipyards for faster ships (player & NPC alike) and if you feel really adventurous, have a look into the Testing & Bugs forum and test the RS successor, OSE WiP, for even faster ships.

The tactical situation also becomes more complicated than your two options.

Be warned though: Enemies can be much more deadly than those you already complained about ...

Otherwise, I'd use the Suggestions forum for suggestions

Cheers

L

[another_commander]

It feels more like I'm playing Atari than an immersive game. I've read other threads on battle tactics, which might be a bit of an overstatement since there are really only two tactics: 1) snipe them before they snipe you or 2) close the distance and ride their six.

I think you just need to practice combat a little more. Combat in Elite/Oolite is very different to combat in Privateer, Wing Commander, X-Wing or FreeSpace. And just to make a point, here are off the top of my head two more techniques for combat that seem to have escaped you: 1) Missile a couple of the attackers from long distance to keep them busy evading and concentrate fire on a different target. If it's one-on-one, missile your opponent from a distance to gain time to approach. 2) Flee. Yes, it is a very valid technique in Oolite. If you can't flee by running and they are on to you, hyper out. And of course, there are plenty more but I'll leave it to you to discover.

Also, seeing that you have mentioned lack of ability to load during flight, next release will have the option of restarting the game mid-flight. This will give you the chance to exit a battle you can't win and reload if you want.

d) better physics.

Can you please elaborate further on this?

[Sarin]

Better...does he mean more realistic? I'm not sure, we might have such discussion before...

[Diziet Sma]

I didn't realize that, but a 25km ranged laser is just insane. I can't even see ships at that distance.

Not really.. the lasers we bounce off the Moon now have only spread to a few metres wide at that distance... in theory a tightly collimated beam should have an effective range of much more than 25km in space.

And we have guys on this board who regularly snipe ships at that distance.. right on the edge of the scanner.. I haven't done it myself but from what I recall all you need is the right ship and a joystick in precision mode.. If I recall, some claim to have done it without precision mode..

skill is just a matter of practice, practice, practice...

[Diziet Sma]

I've been thinking about my evasive tactics a little, and I'm not sure what it is that makes your experience so different from mine... I get some long-range engagements, but the majority seem to be in-close dogfights, or at least rapidly devolve into such..

As you mentioned, corkscrewing is generally more effective than pitch/yaw manoeuvres (and is not hard to do even on a keyboard remapped for yaw), but I think the important thing even then is not to use any given tactic for too long. NPC ships seem to be very good at spotting patterns, and if you maintain the same corkscrew for more than 5 seconds or so, they will get a bead on you again.

What I aim for is unpredictability... constantly change tactics at random, dodge, weave, corkscrew, speed up, slow down, sometimes even stop briefly, short bursts on the injectors.. anything that will put me in a different location than the enemy is expecting me to be. If confronted by a large pack, sometimes I will run under injectors for 10-20 seconds or more before stopping again, this forces them to chase me, resulting (usually) in a drawn-out string of ships (fastest to slowest) that I can deal with in ones and twos, rather than as a group. Usually, they will be chasing on injectors, and if I suddenly stop, they'll overshoot, at which point the hunter has become the hunted!

As others have stated, missile tactics are important too.. if some onfgneq is making your life miserable, sending him a missile to teach him some manners will allow you a respite to collect your thoughts before rejoining the fray.. hardheads and military missiles are worth their weight in gold for this alone. The same applies to a group of ships hammering your shields at a distance.. putting a missile amongst them will ease the pressure on you long enough to take out one or two of their friends, or allow you to close the distance (injectors again) and start mixing it with them.

As for your "only 2 tactics" remark, well... those are the only 2 tactics I don't use...