Oolite Bulletins

My understanding is that if no license is specified, then it is always required to ask first.

So no license does not mean people are free to do as they wish, but as long as KW stays contactable people will be able to do so as long as he agrees on a per-request basis.

There are really 2 reasons to give a clear license:

1) People have put a lot of effort into good licenses, and legally you are more likely to get what you want if you use a standard one.

2) After you are gone for whatever reason, leave the game, lose internet connectivity, whatever, without a license, you work will not be usable.

Wow. That's already one full page of posts after the definitive word.

But most of them off topic :p

In fact, it would be nice if someone would split this diuscussion after the definitive word, and lock the topic.

Commander McLane wrote:

Wow. That's already one full page of posts after the definitive word.

It's the definitive word on Licensing, but clearly not the definitive word on the fate of O(S)E and in fact the title of the thread - irrespectively of the alternative - "cancelled" "reloaded" "cancelled" ending is still about O(S)E, so as long as the discussion continues to be about the future of O(S)E I don't see why it needs to be split or locked - on the first sign of a proper flame war then fine - but at the moment some of us are trying to make suggestions on the viability of an alternative approach for O(S)E - and I don't even want to use O(S)E but I'm still keen not to see L throw away 2yrs worth of work - even if the project has to/needs to be altered to suit the general mood of the Oolite commoonity - or even if L has the will/desire to undertake such a thing (and if not - it really is dead - 'cept with proper licensing from L it could be resurrected/altered/reissued by somebody else - an odd full circle moment).

Me, I'm just one humble black crow, but I'll keep the +ve vibe going as long as is feasible even as my feathers get singed in the heat of a bubbling undercurrent of animosity and near-flaming.

Cmdr James wrote:

... it would be nice if someone would split this diuscussion after the definitive word, and lock the topic.

Really, no.

The problem with this debate has been - from the beginning on - the attempt to silence digressing opinions by some. Locking the thread and forbidding people to speak their mind might please some, but would be very bad for this community. It would reek of wannabe-dictator.

Aegidian has said the definite word about the licensing and - in my opinion - thereby also about the "moral" issue. I respect his obviously well-informed opinion, but what he wrote did not translate to "shut up" in my radar.

The OE project will not be able to continue the way it was with things standing as they stand, but it doesn't mean it can't continue at all. I am also quite unhappy about just binning the last 2yrs work.

I am currently considering my options and will have to say some things about them soonish, but contrary to some here I might say I do plan to do some thinking before posting

L

Lestradae wrote:

Cmdr James wrote:

... it would be nice if someone would split this diuscussion after the definitive word, and lock the topic.

Really, no.

The problem with this debate has been - from the beginning on - the attempt to silence digressing opinions by some. Locking the thread and forbidding people to speak their mind might please some, but would be very bad for this community. It would reek of wannabe-dictator.

Aegidian has said the definite word about the licensing and - in my opinion - thereby also about the "moral" issue. I respect his obviously well-informed opinion, but what he wrote did not translate to "shut up" in my radar.

The OE project will not be able to continue the way it was with things standing as they stand, but it doesn't mean it can't continue at all. I am also quite unhappy about just binning the last 2yrs work.

I am currently considering my options and will have to say some things about them soonish, but contrary to some here I might say I do plan to do some thinking before posting

L

I agree. While Lord Giles spoke his words of wisdom upon the licensing problem OE is a separate discussion.

Im not trying to silence differing opinions, Im trying to separate them into sensible discussion threads.

This thread is 60 pages. How is anyone meant to follow it properly?

We have a final statement on licensing, which I think deserves locking, not least so that its findable in the mass of posts.

Other discussions can continue, but I dont think this should all be done in one place.

EDIT: how about we close this thread, and start a new, clean thread about the future of OSE now that we know where everyone stands license-wise?

In fact, I think that thread already exists, but the point stands, lets make this easy to follow.

@DaddyHoggy

W/out wanting to trawl through the whole Sung thread(s), i thought the whole of that fired up because he expected to be paid for his work/sell it, or am i misremembering?
anyways, WTF. i'll add a note to my new ship ReadMe explaining my stance and leave it at that. my current stance is i flatly refuse to quote licences and what have you as i think it's kinda counter to the community we had happily existing only a few short weeks ago. i'm happy to toe the line tho, if the community decides that it's a requirement, although as i've said numerous times, simple courtesy should be enough to get this board back to the way it was. i hope.
there's no sales or money involved in all of this so why legalities and licences suddenly became such a hot topic is somewhat disappointing to me.


edit : i'd agree w/ the locking. a new OSE thread would give people the chance to state there if they want their work represented, which i think should be THE starting point for any future consideration of the OXP, otherwise i can see us ending up in exactly the same place a few months from now.

Cmdr James wrote:

ClymAngus wrote:

You see I don't know if people want to keep this game a bit "messonic" you know signs and wonders, enigma wrapped in a mystery. Or if they want to blow the doors open. If you want to blow the doors open then the eye candy on the cover has to equal the eye candy in game.

Google oolite, first page:

http://www.oolite.org/

Do you catch my drift?

Its a reimplementation of a game nearly as old as I am so I dont think eyecandy is core to its attraction. Oolite does not intend to be a mass market cutting edge title, it intends to (in my view) keep elite alive, and I think its doing that very well.

Its hardly an enigma wrapped in a mysetery. It comes downloadable as a working binary, which is playable out of the box on all the main operating systems, with hardware requirements not much more than microsoft minesweeper. Nothing more required.

For those who want more there is a vibrant OXP community who document their work on the wiki, and whilst there is room for improvement, it isnt that hard to install a few ships and missions.

James and lfnfan allow me (if I may) with the greatest of respect to clarify.
This is why I gave people the option in the first place. Some like their builder upper games a little exclusive and others don't. It is just a preference but it does have an important impact on the look of the game on the internet.

Sure the basic game keeps elite alive and it's never going to be as bwah! as pc space traders out there (well maybe). BUT if we have the option of alteration and forum based improvement to embelish the game then it is would be a pity not to reflect that in the inital player grab.

I think the game is robust enough to cater for both tastes indeed oxping gives us that very opportunity.

With respect James our perspective is of one from the inside looking out not the outside looking in. The facility of making your own game could be better represented for the "on a plate" generation. Having asked a number of people who remember elite the main attitude is; "what? I've actually got to go searching for add ons? Screw that!" sad but true.

I just don't see my idea as a major afront to the smooth running of the forum, the game or the copyright. And it actually solves some of the issues of longevity to boot.

But then we are dealing with first few generations of computing where the uphill data battle was the status quo so you know I could be wrong.

@KW-
Creative Commons 1.0 Universal License - This is the one for you.

Killer Wolf wrote:

@DaddyHoggy

W/out wanting to trawl through the whole Sung thread(s), i thought the whole of that fired up because he expected to be paid for his work/sell it, or am i misremembering?
anyways, WTF. i'll add a note to my new ship ReadMe explaining my stance and leave it at that. my current stance is i flatly refuse to quote licences and what have you as i think it's kinda counter to the community we had happily existing only a few short weeks ago. i'm happy to toe the line tho, if the community decides that it's a requirement, although as i've said numerous times, simple courtesy should be enough to get this board back to the way it was. i hope.
there's no sales or money involved in all of this so why legalities and licences suddenly became such a hot topic is somewhat disappointing to me.


edit : i'd agree w/ the locking. a new OSE thread would give people the chance to state there if they want their work represented, which i think should be THE starting point for any future consideration of the OXP, otherwise i can see us ending up in exactly the same place a few months from now.

The basic gist of the Sung issue was -> Oosat2 was down - Sung couldn't upload his texture pack -> LB took texture pack and trimmed it to get under 10MB Box.net limit so more people could download it -> Sung spat the dummy big time -> accused the community of stealing his work, removing details from the readme -> in that instance the community stated that (and I paraphrase) "once you've submitted something to the Oolite Community it belongs to the Oolite Community you can't take it back" -> we now know this not to be true, at least from a licensing point of view. The fact that Sung wanted to use the texture pack in his own (related) project is/was I think irrelevant.

You have a problem with a formal license - that is fine - I think you've stated enough times now that there's probably some clever legal term to clarify your intent about utterly free use for anything by anybody, even if you fall off the planet at some future date.

I also have to say, that I've changed my mind, I think I'm allowed to do that, Cmdr James' reasoning for drawing a line (in this thread) under at least the licensing clarification by Aegidian would make sense - with a moderator putting in a link to another thread where this debate could continue (indefinitely?) before locking it - this Lestradae I think is a sensible solution and not at all Draconian, especially as other threads on OSE exist and you could start another one at any time - I really don't think anybody is trying to silence you.

Finally, it has been pointed out to me via PM that something I said earlier

DaddyHoggy wrote:

but I'll keep the +ve vibe going as long as is feasible even as my feathers get singed in the heat of a bubbling undercurrent of animosity and near-flaming.

may be taken to mean that I think the flaming is in but a single direction and entirely directed towards Lestradae. This was not my intent, it was merely a catch-all statement to indicate my general unhappiness that on both sides of this argument many heated words have been exchanged (and I fear will continue to be exchanged).

Mmm ok, maybe lock and restart>> OE-new topic
Nothing against you L. But it's good to begin clear and to branch the debates out into different topics?

Huh ... I think my formulation of what I meant was flawed.

I am fine with splitting the "OE future?!" topic to a (potentially new) thread and/or the licensing info part, too!

If I misunderstood something I apologise. My admittedly angry comment about stopping people from talking about a topic was directed towards locking the OE thread as a whole, not splitting partial issues into separate threads for better "understandability"!

L

Good, good, misunderstandings all round - admittance of such things is the first step on the road to recovery for all concerned.

Lestradae wrote:

The problem with this debate has been - from the beginning on - the attempt to silence digressing opinions by some.

Sorry, this is simply not true. It is your view of the matter which you have voiced abundantly by now, but it is not true.

In fact there were people who pointed you to the various flaws and bugs in your OXP in the various states of its development, but you took their factual points for opinions and tried to silence them. And you still do. And this is how this mess started.

I don't know about the other participants and the moderators, but from my point of view the throwing around of unspecified accusations ("attempt to silence disgressing opinions") against unspecified people ("some") is the textbook example of flaming. And as nobody is accused specifically, and no evidence whatsoever for the accusation (like links to concrete posts in this thread or elsewhere) is brought forward, nobody can even defend themselves and set things straight. So we are stuck with the endless repetition of always the same accusations--according to my view and recalling of the matter false accusations.

This is the reason why I only see flaming from Lestradae, not against Lestradae. And it never ends. And it makes me sad and sick.