Equipment vanishes?!?

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Equipment vanishes?!?

Post by Screet »

Hi!

I'm a bit confused as to what is the cause of this...and I'm not sure if both cases are related.

When buying a new ship, I noticed that some eq parts to get transferred to the new one. Sometimes this does take a little bit of time and the user then can see that the eq isn't there at first, but then suddenly shows up on F5.

Buying the Caduceus, my naval energy unit wasn't transferred on one occasion. I couldn't buy it back and thus I just did add it back by editing the save file. Worked - but what's the cause of this?

Then I once had been flying with the MASC, as I got annoyed of a few things about missiles. With the cloak, they cannot hit me anyway, but I just thought it easier to equip my craft with it, again. It did not get transferred, which probably is correct.

Thus I equipped my Caduceus with a new MASC. It was working as usual...until now. I start, fly to a nearby anarchy and had to switch the cloak on and off again in order to stop missiles. I checked - no MASC, no Scanner filter. Both gone - not destroyed but gone.

Hit shift-esc, reload...F5 shows both pieces of equipment. I launch...and they are gone again!

I did add a few new OXPs, but I did not remove any old ones. Is there anywhere some "remove those pieces of eq" script as part of some mission and it already removes these things even before starting any mission? If it's taken away that way, why not add some message? Furthermore...I would rather have to fullfill some mission oxp in order to get such stuff, but it's not doing much more than there's already in the game, as the cloak creates 100% missile safety (and I did not have that EQ during assassins). I just don't like having to switch from both hands on stick to the keyboard and back again just in order to hit "0" twice.

This is the cloak-ECM vs. a pirate condor:
Image

Screet
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Re: Equipment vanishes?!?

Post by Commander McLane »

Screet wrote:
When buying a new ship, I noticed that some eq parts to get transferred to the new one. Sometimes this does take a little bit of time and the user then can see that the eq isn't there at first, but then suddenly shows up on F5.
There is only one standard equipment item that is transferred to a new ship: the cloaking device. I don't know how long it takes, but I would suspect the transfer to be instantly.
Screet wrote:
Buying the Caduceus, my naval energy unit wasn't transferred on one occasion. I couldn't buy it back and thus I just did add it back by editing the save file. Worked - but what's the cause of this?
Correct behaviour. The NEU is not transferred to your new ship. If you have been awarded it through a mission, you have been given the right to re-purchase it, which is what you have to do after buying a new ship. Note that it is a sophisticated piece of equipment, so you will need to find a station with TL 14 in order to buy it. And it's expensive, too. If you don't find it in a TL 14 station, you have fallen victim to a bug in an OXP. You have one guess which. :wink:
Screet wrote:
Then I once had been flying with the MASC, as I got annoyed of a few things about missiles. With the cloak, they cannot hit me anyway, but I just thought it easier to equip my craft with it, again. It did not get transferred, which probably is correct.
In Elite/Oolite, there is no such thing as a MASC. If you got something like this in the first place, I consider that a bug (coming from an OXP). Weird behaviour is to be expected out of bugs.
Screet wrote:
I start, fly to a nearby anarchy and had to switch the cloak on and off again in order to stop missiles.
That's what I always do if the ECM doesn't work. I don't see any problem with that. :)
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..

Post by Lestradae »

Hi Screet, hi Cmdr McLane.

I'm sorry, but Cmdr McLane's interpretation of what is happening is completely off the mark. But, it has to be said in his defense that he doesn't know the fact that you, Screet, have a WiP version of an unfinished oxp for testing (OSE, that is) that modifies some pieces of equipment so that they work differently than they did before.

The process is also far from being finished.

Now to the details.
Screet: When buying a new ship, I noticed that some eq parts to get transferred to the new one. Sometimes this does take a little bit of time and the user then can see that the eq isn't there at first, but then suddenly shows up on F5.

McLane: There is only one standard equipment item that is transferred to a new ship: the cloaking device. I don't know how long it takes, but I would suspect the transfer to be instantly.
This is behaviour changed in OSE. The naval cloaking device reads atm as follows in there:

Code: Select all

<array>
                <integer>16</integer>
                <integer>5000000</integer>
                <string>Naval Energy Unit</string>
                <string>EQ_NAVAL_ENERGY_UNIT</string>
                <string>Bleeding-edge Technology. A special improved efficiency energy recharge unit, as supplied to Navy vessels.</string>
                <dict>
                        <key>portable_between_ships</key>
                        <true/>
                        <key>available_to_all</key>
                        <true/>
                </dict>
        </array>
If the NEU is not portable between ships this would contitute a bug in Oolite itself, then.

(Please note that the above configuration is not final. I have gotten a suggestion from McLane how to solve what I want to do here in a probably better way and I will perhaps implement that solution. This is a WiP, people, and Screet is testing it!)
Screet: Buying the Caduceus, my naval energy unit wasn't transferred on one occasion. I couldn't buy it back and thus I just did add it back by editing the save file. Worked - but what's the cause of this?

McLane: Correct behaviour. The NEU is not transferred to your new ship. If you have been awarded it through a mission, you have been given the right to re-purchase it, which is what you have to do after buying a new ship. Note that it is a sophisticated piece of equipment, so you will need to find a station with TL 14 in order to buy it. And it's expensive, too. If you don't find it in a TL 14 station, you have fallen victim to a bug in an OXP.
See above.
Screet: Then I once had been flying with the MASC, as I got annoyed of a few things about missiles. With the cloak, they cannot hit me anyway, but I just thought it easier to equip my craft with it, again. It did not get transferred, which probably is correct.

McLane: In Elite/Oolite, there is no such thing as a MASC. If you got something like this in the first place, I consider that a bug (coming from an OXP). Weird behaviour is to be expected out of bugs.
The MASC is an equipment item that was created by aegidian, that's the guy who created this game in the first place, himself, but was not used as far as I know before. It is a working piece of Oolite equipment that I make available in my oxp in an I hope balanced way.

It is not a bug and it works as intended for NPCs and players as far as I can see. The same with the Antijammer.
Screet: I start, fly to a nearby anarchy and had to switch the cloak on and off again in order to stop missiles.

McLane: That's what I always do if the ECM doesn't work. I don't see any problem with that.
Me too. It's the ultimate missile defence. Also see nothing wrong with it.

Let's not lead debates like that in an ideological form what an oxp should do or shouldn't do, people. I've said it before and will repeat it a thousand times again if nescessary: Oxp's are optional. If you don't like it, don't use it. But don't attempt to tell other people what to do or not with their oxps or tell them something you don't like is a bug. That leads nowhere, as it effectively ends any discussion if you stay on that POV.

I have taken many suggestions and also criticisms on board, also from you, McLane, which is one of the reasons why there is now a small circle of beta-testers who find problems so that I can correct them before every other player finds them. So let's stay in the discussion but in a constructive way, please.

Thanks.

L
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Post by Thargoid »

I've had experience also of cloaking devices not transferring when ships are bought/sold. And mine is a "standard" one (EQ_CLOAKING_DEVICE).

I'll give it some testing later on if I get chance and see if it's reproducable, if so then it could be a trunk bug in one of the newer test versions?

PS As another of the OSE beta-testers, I can also support what Lestradae says that the new version does remove most of the equipment glitches of RS. There are still some places that things can be bought, but not game-breakingly so. And the MASC is a perfectly valid and working piece of equipment to my view too, especially given its countermeasure (the jammer) is also already present in-game too.
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Re: ..

Post by Commander McLane »

Perhaps one could debate whether the NEU should be portable or not. In Oolite it is not, and I don't see a reason why it should be.

However, and I've told Lestradae this before, the first line in the following array is a bug, and a game-breaking one. It makes the built-in Thargoid Plans mission meaningless, which is why I said before that this mission is one of three in-built missions which get broken by RS. (Considering that there are only four built-in missions that is quite a lot.)

Code: Select all

<array>
                <integer>16</integer> <-- here is the bug
                <integer>5000000</integer>
                <string>Naval Energy Unit</string>
                <string>EQ_NAVAL_ENERGY_UNIT</string>
                <string>Bleeding-edge Technology. A special improved efficiency energy recharge unit, as supplied to Navy vessels.</string>
                <dict>
                        <key>portable_between_ships</key>
                        <true/>
                        <key>available_to_all</key>
                        <true/>
                </dict>
        </array>
The number has to be 99 and nothing else, in order to allow the built-in Thargoid Plans mission to give the player a reward as planned, namely the possibility to re-purchase the NEU at any TL14+ station after buying a new ship. Which means it is exactly the bug which prevents Screet from re-purchasing a NEU.
Please note that the above configuration is not final. I have gotten a suggestion from McLane how to solve what I want to do here in a probably better way and I will perhaps implement that solution. This is a WiP, people, and Screet is testing it!
RS is not a WIP, but is being announced by its author as a working OXP. This and other serious bugs have been present in every version of RS since its first release, and they continue to be present in the very latest version.
McLane: In Elite/Oolite, there is no such thing as a MASC. If you got something like this in the first place, I consider that a bug (coming from an OXP). Weird behaviour is to be expected out of bugs.
The MASC is an equipment item that was created by aegidian,
who never introduced it into the game. And I guess he had good reasons for not doing so. As far as I can see at least the MASC-jammer does have a serious problem: I once tried to award it to my test commander, and it showed up on the F5-screen twice. This is certainly not a bug-free behaviour.

Therefore it seems obvious to me that these two items are not ready for use. Any attempt to make the player believe otherwise (for instance by making them available) is at least a nuisance, but I call it a bug.
I've said it before and will repeat it a thousand times again if nescessary: Oxp's are optional. If you don't like it, don't use it.
This would be true if every OXP author would make sure to explain what "it" is, read: to to explain exactly what his OXP does. Then, and only then players can decide if they like it and want to use it. Myself I have never downloaded RS and don't know what its documentation says. Does Lestradae clearly explain in the ReadMe (or somewhere else) that RS
  • breaks the built-in Constrictor Mission by making it possible that an NPC shoots the Constrictor before the player even got the mission (I am not sure, there is the possibility that this bug was removed in the latest version of RS; in that case I would take back this point);
  • alters/breaks the Thargoid Plans mission by disabling the reward that existed in Elite/Oolite;
  • alters built-in behaviour like the fact that usually equipment items are not portable between ships;
  • breaks the Cloaking Device mission by allowing the player to buy a cloaking device before the mission, which makes the mission meaningless;
  • and so on...?
If all this is properly documented, the player may indeed decide whether he wants this behaviour, which is all contrary to the behaviour that was intended by "the guy who created this game in the first place, himself"; or he wants Oolite behaviour, which he won't get with RS installed. I doubt it, though.
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Re: ..

Post by Thargoid »

Commander McLane wrote:
This would be true if every OXP author would make sure to explain what "it" is, read: to to explain exactly what his OXP does. Then, and only then players can decide if they like it and want to use it. Myself I have never downloaded RS and don't know what its documentation says. Does Lestradae clearly explain in the ReadMe (or somewhere else) that RS
  • breaks the built-in Constrictor Mission by making it possible that an NPC shoots the Constrictor before the player even got the mission (I am not sure, there is the possibility that this bug was removed in the latest version of RS; in that case I would take back this point);
  • alters/breaks the Thargoid Plans mission by disabling the reward that existed in Elite/Oolite;
  • alters built-in behaviour like the fact that usually equipment items are not portable between ships;
  • breaks the Cloaking Device mission by allowing the player to buy a cloaking device before the mission, which makes the mission meaningless;
  • and so on...?
If all this is properly documented, the player may indeed decide whether he wants this behaviour, which is all contrary to the behaviour that was intended by "the guy who created this game in the first place, himself"; or he wants Oolite behaviour, which he won't get with RS installed. I doubt it, though.
  • The current version of RS does not break the constrictor mission, this bug has been fixed and he has posted the warning and required actions here and made every effort to alert people to it. That was an honest original bug, which is something that every OXP writer will probably make at some point and has been fixed.
  • It doesn't break Thargoid plans. Yes it could allow the NEU to be purchased earlier so altering it, but given that it only makes the item available in one or two specific locations and at a very high cost then to me that's not such a big game issue. And in any case whilst the player is in G3 the built-in mission will over-ride OSE anyway and set it back to tech level 13. After the player leaves G3 then OSE will come into play and it will go up to tech 16 again.
  • OXPs alter built-in behaviour all the time. Trying to "ban" them doing so is very counterproductive, especially as they're optional.
  • And as for the cloaking device, the built-in script even checks if the player already has one, and if they do it awards 100kg of gold instead. So for me the modification was already anticipated, so it's not broken as they player still gets a reward.
Quite honestly this vendetta against RS is for me getting rather tiresome when every bug in the game seems to get blamed on it. Yes it has faults, but given its scope and size, and that it's drawing together so many other OXPs (each with their own possible inherent bugs) then it's hardly surprising. The constructive approach is to actually download it and help to fix those bugs, or join the OSE beta-test group and do so.[/color]
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Re: ..

Post by Commander McLane »

Thargoid wrote:
  • The current version of RS does not break the constrictor mission, this bug has been fixed and he has posted the warning and required actions here and made every effort to alert people to it. That was an honest original bug, which is something that every OXP writer will probably make at some point and has been fixed.
[/color]
Okay, taken back.
Thargoid wrote:
  • It doesn't break Thargoid plans. Yes it could allow the NEU to be purchased earlier so altering it, but given that it only makes the item available in one or two specific locations and at a very high cost then to me that's not such a big game issue. And in any case whilst the player is in G3 the built-in mission will over-ride OSE anyway and set it back to tech level 13. After the player leaves G3 then OSE will come into play and it will go up to tech 16 again.
[/color]
No, it won't. This one is broken for good, until the buggy value of 16 is restored to the correct 99 in RS. Only TL-values of 99 can be changed by using the mission_TL_FOR_EQ_foo method. If the original value is anything else than 99 this method does not work. RS sets the original value to 16, therefore it breaks the method. As long as the player has RS installed, he will never ever get a NEU at a TL 14 station. He will need a TL 17 station. These don't exist in the game (apart from an RS-created ship, I know).
Thargoid wrote:
  • And as for the cloaking device, the built-in script even checks if the player already has one, and if they do it awards 100kg of gold instead. So for me the modification was already anticipated, so it's not broken as they player still gets a reward.
[/color]
I still think that the cloaking device itself and the mission attached to it lose a lot of its appeal (and the game some of its excitement), if you just buy it someplace. The sudden appearance of a cloaked ship in Galaxy 5 should be a surprise for any Jameson. 100kg of gold are not really a substitute for scooping an exciting equipment, even if they are the scripted alternative in Oolite's script itself. If you just go into your next equipment store to buy a cloaking device, why bother attaching a mission to it in the first place?
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Post by Thargoid »

OSE makes some planetary changes too, which allows the tech level to be available in certain systems.

As to the method, I presume you're meaning the underlying method that drives EquipmentInfo.infoForKey("EQ_NAVAL_ENERGY_UNIT").effectiveTechLevel = 13;? As that's what changes the tech level of the NEU in the built-in script. As I don't have access to the source code here at the moment I can't comment on that.

And I would disagree regarding the cloaking device, but then that's probably also why I have RS (and now OSE-beta) downloaded and installed, and you don't. You can buy it, but it's not widely available, and nor is it cheap by any means...
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Re: ..

Post by Ark »

Thargoid wrote:
The constructive approach is to actually download it and help to fix those bugs, or join the OSE beta-test group and do so.
This is a 100% correct but in this case someone that actually tests an under_constraction oxp and finds a strange behavior in oolite, at least from my point of view, has the obligation to remove that “under_contruction oxp” and to verify if this strange behavior is native or not to oolite before opening a bug case here.

Bear also in mind that the current version of oolite is also a test version (an extremely stable test version indeed, but a test one; since the rerelease of 1.72.2 everybody seems to forget that) and all those posts with strange behaviors that they end up to be side effects of realistic shipyard oxp do not help the dev team and others to track down the real bugs in oolite (they are out there – trust me).

Also they give the impression to new members that the last test is somehow extremely unstable. I know that from first hand since I had some PMs with this context “Hi Ark very nice work in the update of youradhere oxp, I want to download it an see the new constores but you have made this a 1.72.1 oxp and I am afraid to uninstall the stable 1.65 in order to install 1.72.2 witch is a test release with a lot of problems” and i have to answer that they should download and install the latest test becouse it is rather stable

By saying this I do not try to justify the vendetta you have describe (and I also 100% agree with you that this is not fair) but to explain the possible reasons.
Remember explain not justify :wink:
Last edited by Ark on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by another_commander »

I would be interested to see the entry of OSE for the standard energy unit. In the core files, the standard energy unit is defined as incompatible with the naval one and this could explain why the naval unit is not transferred between ships. If the energy unit is not defined anywhere in OSE, then this is probably it.
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Post by Thargoid »

another_commander wrote:
If the energy unit is not defined anywhere in OSE, then this is probably it.
It isn't, at least in the beta I have (which I believe is current - v0.1)
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Re: Equipment vanishes?!?

Post by Screet »

Commander McLane wrote:
There is only one standard equipment item that is transferred to a new ship: the cloaking device. I don't know how long it takes, but I would suspect the transfer to be instantly.
People keep complaining, that I am too fast. I did have a look at that screen without it, and then, after some time, it was shown.
Commander McLane wrote:
Correct behaviour. The NEU is not transferred to your new ship. If you have been awarded it through a mission, you have been given the right to re-purchase it, which is what you have to do after buying a new ship. Note that it is a sophisticated piece of equipment, so you will need to find a station with TL 14 in order to buy it. And it's expensive, too. If you don't find it in a TL 14 station, you have fallen victim to a bug in an OXP. You have one guess which. :wink:
I guess I've then fallen victim to buying a ship with a NEU before doing that mission, which then resulted in an alternative reward by the mission script as it already expected that these things could be bought beforehand.

I was expecting it to be transferred, as that appeared logical to me. The Cloak does, and both NEU and Cloak for me fall into the same category. If there would be a mission unlocking MASC/Filter, I would expect those parts also to be transferred - and that was my experience with an another ship switch I made before. Otherwise, the behaviour of the cloak, being transferred, would have to be considered a bug!

It seems that OSE does fix this bug for Oolite by applying the same logic to all of those pieces of equipment that should not fall into the wrong hands. The navy surely won't like a Cobby for sale with their top secret equipment!

The reason that I noticed the Oolite original behaviour is - you might guess - that I neither had RS nor OSE installed when switching ships the last time.

It's a bit like the "The wall inside the Raceedat type stations docking bay must be from RS!". I did report that I tracked it down as far as that it's NOT from RS/OSE. The model is buggy, and still is, because everyone says "RS/OSE is the fault" and does not solve the bug. I know how annoying it can be to find bugs over and over in a widely used OXP that isn't bugfree and those bugs being attributed to Oolite instead. However, this annoyance has led to leaving bugs in because everybody attributes it to an OXP that has nothing at all to do with that bug!
Commander McLane wrote:
Screet wrote:
I start, fly to a nearby anarchy and had to switch the cloak on and off again in order to stop missiles.
That's what I always do if the ECM doesn't work. I don't see any problem with that. :)
Exactly then I do not see a problem why the MASC should not be in. LittleBear apparantly thought the cloak to bee too powerful when he did add ECM-proof missiles in his missions. It's just missing a mission oxp that deliveres it! I also have some rough story idea that would lead to a reward of MASC/Filter, but then I am no oxp maker yet, and I guess I'd rather be working on the game source than an oxp, considering my skills.

Furthermore, a mission oxp that removes equipment from a player also in situations when the mission is not running appears to be an immense bug to me, especially when there's not even the slightest story as to WHY. LittleBear perfectly explained why he temporarily removes the cloak - and does so only if the mission currently is active! Therefore, I suggest to consider the Cataclysm behaviour a bug.

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Post by Kaks »

Ok, let me sum this up:

1. Transferred pieces of equipment don't show up instantaneously: Oolite bug - minor, but we'll track it down.
2. Some not yet implemented equipment doesn't transfer/is buggy: that's probably one of the reasons why it wasn't implemented. This and some other 'hidden' features will most likely have to wait - inside standard Oolite, of course - until after the MNSR.
3. The NEU doesn't get transferred as expected: complex case, it might be working as designed, or the original implementation was flawed to begin with.


I was under the impression that the naval energy units weren't transferable because after the mission they become available to purchase in a few high tech systems, allowing the player to buy them anew after selling their ship. Do they actually become available after the standard mission in standard Oolite? If not, then I would definitely want to alter NEUs to make them transferable!

IIRC, the only reason the cloaking device is transferable in plain Oolite is because you wouldn't be able to get it anywhere else otherwise.
I also seem to remember - but here I'm probably very wrong - that the 100 credit 'reward' in the standard mission was added in case another OXP had already awarded the CD to the player.

As an aside, if the cloaking device can be purchased, then the main (ok, the only - IMHO) reason to make the cloaking device transferable suddenly disappear. It might make sense if within the OSE 'universe' the cloaking device stays with the ship when you sell it... :P

About RS & OSE: those two seem to definitely push at the limits of what is possible within Oolite, and more often than not they're useful to highlight possible bugs & inconsistencies within the main game, but they also seem to blur the boundaries between OXPs and Oolite itself.
It can be very confusing for everybody involved, leading to unpleasant situations like the other week where expected behaviour within Oolite suddenly becomes a bug within OSE!

And finally, before I forget: the Raceedat? Where does it come from? It would be nice if the original author updated it. If they're not around, maybe it's better if OSE doesn't include it until it's fixed.
I'm grappling with refactoring planetary textures atm ( hopefully we'll have shader support for planets in the not too distant future ), but I'm planning to reopen my OXP orphanage sooner or later. Do let me know where Raceedat is from & when the time comes I'll have a look! :)
Hey, free OXPs: farsun v1.05 & tty v0.5! :0)
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Post by Eric Walch »

Kaks wrote:
Ok, let me sum this up:

1. Transferred pieces of equipment don't show up instantaneously: I was under the impression that the naval energy units weren't transferable because after the mission they become available to purchase in a few high tech systems, allowing the player to buy them anew after selling their ship. Do they actually become available after the standard mission in standard Oolite? If not, then I would definitely want to alter NEUs to make them transferable!:)
They become just buyable after fulfilment of the mission. I had to repair it several times since. But as you only can change technical levels by script for equipment with an initial level of 99, RS makes it non-repairable at the usual systems.
Not a real problem. Removing RS solves this problem. It would be worse when RS would set the level of native equipment at the normal way. It would than be saved in the saved game and would still be non-buyable after removing RS.
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Post by Kaks »

Ok, there you have it, the Naval Energy Unit is not transferable, because after completing the mission it becomes buyable, and not so top secret anymore.

Of course, you can alter this behaviour within OSE, but at this rate it looks like we'll have to start a thread to keep track of the differences between Oolite + RS/OSE and Oolite without RS/OSE, including the possibility that some OSE savegames might change the way standard Oolite works(!)
Hey, free OXPs: farsun v1.05 & tty v0.5! :0)
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