UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

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Re: Lave OXP

Post by Cholmondely »

Cholmondely wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 9:29 am
Cholmondely wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 9:26 am
Would there be point in updating this?

Lave is the System where we begin the standard game... and we already have the Academy!

Lave is the system where HIMSN is based (and we have the ships and textures)

We have DAJT's monument (untouched since 2006)!

We have Stranger's new planet texture!

Could we put together a new Lave.OXP which would combine the above with this OXP (Single Moon - with the Empress's palace?), instructor & trainees & advertising droids?

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

1) Would we really need to bother updating the instructors/trinkets etc? It would make sense that they use clunky-looking ships.

2) Would we want some new Lave-specific ads? (The only part I could meaningfully contribute to at the moment)

3) Could we tweak the monument in any way to make it interact with the player?

4) Would it make sense to add a HIMSN naval base? Or an office in the station or the Lave Academy?

5) Some sort of traffic between planet/naval base and the Moon Palace? A space port image and interaction on Moon Landings? A space port image for landing on Lave itself?

6) Would we want a Lave which is limited to just the one sun, one planet and the one peculiar moon (as in the Lore, which has been broken by the Diso OXP)? Or would we want a more complex solar system?

7) Add some more orbital stations? And maybe some sort of interaction with the player?
1) On starting. Say two starting missions, one for a law-abiding player and another for someone less scrupulous?
2) On returning, presumably with a better equipped ship?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Lave OXPs
* Lave OXP: single "fake" moon, restaurant ships, instructor & trinkets, advertising droid, Lave bumped from TL5 to TL8
* Lave Academy
* Monument: either close to sun or in orbit around planet depending on sun distance
* FPO Lave: new Lave texture for v.1.90
* PSLave (Planet Scanner) & Far Planets create other planets in the Lave System
* Lave is Earth: A_C_'s planetary texture demonstration

Lave Lore sources (contradictory!)
* Dark Wheel
* Imprint
* Drew's Oolite novels
* Selezen's work - see Lave page on wiki
* Rough Guide (Disembodied)

Personally I'd vote for Disembodied's interpretation (he's the only one still regularly with us!), and try and fit in the others if they work with the Rough Guide.
Just found this (response to Cultist's 2010 ideas for improving Oolite):
Disembodied wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:16 pm
cultist wrote:
From reading planet descriptions many are "colonised" with human colonists?
Maybe some wars of independence from natives?Or something between these lines
There are a lot of planets suffering from "civil wars"... perhaps some of these are between natives and pockets of colonists.

As a remake of Elite, Oolite has taken the -- necessarily -- simplistic original background to the game. While some OXPs can flesh this out a little, most of the work really has to be performed by the player's imagination!

For most of the inhabitants of the oooniverse, life is probably fairly backwards and/or oppressive, not to say brutal and short. The Galactic Co-Operative means very little to the serfs tilling the fields of a Poor Agricultural Feudal planet, or the mind-numbed drones of an Industrial Dictatorship, or the Corporate wage-slaves. We, the pilots, are the lucky ones. We're out, and free: and, shameful to admit, we don't really care about the suffering billions toiling away at the bottom of all those gravity wells. A two-line description tells us all we want to know about them, their planets and their lives.

The Co-Operative is for our benefit, largely, as long as we keep the wealth flowing between the worlds, and filling the pockets of the rich and powerful who dominate the various polities. There must be peasants, cold and hungry, who look up at night to the wormholes blossoming open against the stars, who see us as little high-riding tin gods, unshackled, uncaring, doing whatever we please. Probably, they envy us. Probably, many of them hate us, too. But what's that to us? Open a wormhole: fly away.
Captain Hesperus wrote:
I go by the fiction that mentions that the GalCop central government is based on Lave Coriolis One and that the most famous (in fact the only mentioned) space flight school is there.
Lave is still a backwater. That's probably why the central authority is there, on Coriolis One, along with the Flight School. You can't put something like that in a powerful system: none of the other powerful systems would agree to it. Lave has "compromise" written all over it.
More thinking on Lave: April 2022

1) Interraction with Diplomancy. Should graduates of Lave Academy be given (say) a year's visa for Lave on graduation?
2) HIMSN is not based at Lave. But maybe some sort of office at the Academy for "recruiting" students if they have a sufficient Elite ranking?
3) Recruiting offices for Galactic Navy, RRS Group, Taxi Galactica (are there any others of relevance?).

• Is there anything else we might wish to add to the mix?
1) How about a school chum who might team up with the player on one or two early flights?
2) How about an enemy (as in Imprint)? Someone who appears at occasional systems in the future and whose skills and ship equipment slightly improve in the interim?
3) How about a chum (school chum?) in the shipyards who can give a small discount or slightly faster service when adding kit to one's ship? (with Lave.oxp increasing the TL from 5 to 8 this adds a little but not too much...)
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by phkb »

Just looking at getting the base OXP in line using primarily Griff ship models. However, that necessitates a departure from the "official" set of ships in the OXP.

What I'm proposing is:
1. Swapping the Coral Liner for a Boa Class Cruiser with a custom skin (similar to what I did in Tianve)
2. Swapping the Add Droids for a Hognose pulling a billboard.
3. Changing the Learner Trinket for a Sidewinder Scout Ship with a custom skin.
4. Changing the Instructor Trinket for an Asp Mark II with a custom skin.
5. Changing the food trucks for Worms with custom skins.

All the other ships have a Griff equivalent, which I'm using with custom skins for each (Anaconda, Morays, Sidewinder).

Would this be going too far, do you think?

Another question: What was the logic in bumping Lave's TL to 8 in this OXP?
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by Wildeblood »

.....
Last edited by Wildeblood on Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by Cholmondely »

phkb wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:44 am
Just looking at getting the base OXP in line using primarily Griff ship models. However, that necessitates a departure from the "official" set of ships in the OXP.

What I'm proposing is:
1. Swapping the Coral Liner for a Boa Class Cruiser with a custom skin (similar to what I did in Tianve)
2. Swapping the Add Droids for a Hognose pulling a billboard.
3. Changing the Learner Trinket for a Sidewinder Scout Ship with a custom skin.
4. Changing the Instructor Trinket for an Asp Mark II with a custom skin.
5. Changing the food trucks for Worms with custom skins.

All the other ships have a Griff equivalent, which I'm using with custom skins for each (Anaconda, Morays, Sidewinder).

Would this be going too far, do you think?

Another question: What was the logic in bumping Lave's TL to 8 in this OXP?
1) Retexture

Anything is better than what we have at the moment. You might prefer faffing with Murgh's 2022 Iron Ass version.

I did end up playing with his Iron Ass suite for half a year just so that Lave came out right, but the incongruities with Anarchies, Commies & Dictatorships eventually created such cognitive/aesthetic dissonance that it did me in.



2) TL bump

Murgh's logic (in bumping the TL from 5 to 8) was to keep it in line with his understanding of the lore (Holdstock's Dark Wheel - and possibly Imprint too). This entire OXP was written to bring the Dark Wheel's version of Lave into Oolite. It does seem rather odd to have one of the two politically leading systems in G1/Santaari as a complete industrial backwater (Zadies being the other, with a TL of 9).



3) Stranger's point about depth

Can we add something to Lave? Create something which makes it a sensible terminus in Oolite, giving a reason to visit it and haunt the surrounds? Something which brings it to life rather than just adding "eye-candy"? I'm happy to help in any way I can.

Thanks in great part to your efforts we now have some superb systems to visit: Tianve, Lerelace and Riredi. Also Tionisla. Only Tianve and Tionisla add in a little depth (you know who flying around Tianve, and Alnivel's work on the TCA at Tionisla). And DGill is doing this with his new Feudal States rejig - but it only works for Feudal States.

Perhaps add a relationship with one of the tutors at Lave Academy?
Such as Barkanioth Sidereas, the Supreme Savant of the Lavean Academy's School of Strategic Studies. He might give some tips on strategy!
Or an old chum from the Academy who now works at Lave Orbital and can help out minimally - 10% discount just on missiles or some such? Or a distant cousin doing the same sort of thing? And maybe needing help to go visit the local Rock Hermit to pick up a parcel? And making comments as the ship is flown (adaptation of Enhanced Passenger Contracts? or Captain Berf's crew members?)!


References:
Cholly's wiki user: page moan: https://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/User: ... ding_depth
Stranger's Roolite Essay #1: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21083
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by phkb »

Sneak peek:
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by Cholmondely »

Just wondering - are there really no other high-poly ships which are available? I'm no great expert on the ship OXPs, but it seems peculiar to me. Are there really no other Griff ships? Or anything by anybody else?

Just looking down the top of the Expansions List:

Snark:
Image

Wyvern Explorer:
Image

Outrider:
Image

Dragonships: Draco, Dragonette, Wyrm
Image
Image
Image

Super Sidewinder
Image

Fruit Bat
Image

Chrysopelea Mk 1
Image

Firefly Class Transport
Image

Griff's Bug
Image
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by phkb »

What if I swap the Moray's for a couple of Bugs, and the Anaconda for an Ophidian?
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by phkb »

Actually, I know why I picked those Griff models - I have all the resources I need to create custom skins quickly. The Ophidian and Bug are going to take a bit of time while I build up equivalent resources for them.
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by Cholmondely »

Cholmondely wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:29 pm
2) TL bump

Murgh's logic ( in bumping the TL from 5 to 8 ) was to keep it in line with his understanding of the lore (Holdstock's Dark Wheel - and possibly Imprint too). This entire OXP was written to bring the Dark Wheel's version of Lave into Oolite. It does seem rather odd to have one of the two politically leading systems in G1/Santaari as a complete industrial backwater (Zadies being the other, with a TL of 9).
Just pondering this a bit more.

The most obvious reason is the existence of Cowell and Mgrath's Cobra Mk.3 production plant at Lave (from the The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Observer's Guide to Ships in Service)




And I wonder: does the political importance of rival Zadies predate Famous Planets?
"The planet houses the main administrative headquarters of GalCop."

The obvious solution to the Lave/Zadies dichotomy (for me) is to argue that Lave was historically the galactic capital but that Zadies is more geographically relevant.
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by phkb »

Updated ships:
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by Cholmondely »

Looking good!

And "thank you" for taking this on. This is probably the most important of our "Lore OXPs".
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by cbr »

phkb wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 6:09 am
Actually, I know why I picked those Griff models - I have all the resources I need to create custom skins quickly. The Ophidian and Bug are going to take a bit of time while I build up equivalent resources for them.
And the way these models are build up they are easier to modify than others, Griff Shipbuilding is very generous with resources in general...
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by phkb »

I think the new Lave planet textures with city lights are starting to look ok now:

Image
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by phkb »

Download Lave_2.0.oxz (note: it's a bit bigger now -- 56mb!)

What's in the box?
- Converted all plist files to OpenStep format.
- Renamed ship data keys to make them more unique and less likely to run into conflicts with other OXPs.
- Switched to Griff's models for all ships
Used a Hognose pulling a billboard to replace the Add Droids
Used a Boa Class Cruiser to replace the Coral Liner.
Used a Sidewinder Scout Ship to replace the Learner Trinket.
Used a Asp Mark II to replace the Instructor Trinket.
Used a Worm to replace the Food trucks.
Used a Ophidian for the passenger transport (instead of an Anaconda).
Used a Bug for the two transporters (instead of Morays).
- Change spawning functions to script.
- Added scriptInfo for Random Ship Names for most ships, so they will get an appropriate name from that OXP.
- Added new moon texture.
- Added new main planet texture with city lights.
- Made the Lave Academy OXP a requirement for this one.
- Make the FPO Lave OXP a conflicting OXP, so the textures from this OXP can be used instead.
- Added three mini-missions that can trigger when you dock at the Academy.

I’ll add it to the manager next week, assuming no one finds a critical issue.
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Re: UPDATED OXPS: Lave 1.70 & transports 2.45(new)

Post by Redspear »

phkb wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:38 am
I think the new Lave planet textures with city lights are starting to look ok now:

Image
Firstly, well done on all your hard work. Although I haven't tried this yet I think that the ophidian and bug are well utilised here and as usual your efforts seem pretty comprehensive but...

(I'm trying to help, really I am). I see the water, I see the vast rainforests, I note the human colonial population but I can't see a single cloud anywhere.

Oolite is pretty minimalist when it comes to clouds but based on its discription, shouldn't Lave be swathed in them? Rainforests with no rain?

I think I've made my point.

Outside of this oxp... wouldn't it be cool if a planet could have an alpha layer that could rotate at a different speed to the layer below. I suppose that's how the native clouds work already but if that layer were instead another texture then we could have earth style clouds. For Additional Planets I had to hardbake them to the planet texture.

Not every planet is like earth of course but when most of them are inhabited by human colonials then they're likely to be generally temperate and it would really help if they had liquid water... and preferably lots of it.

...

Perhaps you removed the clouds to highlight the city lights but oolite clouds tend to look more like smog. I actually found this doesn't look too bad when combined with a cloud texture.

Please add lots of clouds as I found the default value to be both unrealistic and, more importantly, not look as good as (considerably) higher values.

P.S. In case you haven't guessed, I'd like lots of clouds please :D
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