Oolite Bulletins

Just trying to see how terms are used.

There are 4 types of "space" in Oolite.

1) Intrastellar Space: The space inside a star system. This is usually experienced while using the first 3 drives in a ship: regular engine drive, witch fuel injectors & torus jump drive.

2) Interstellar Space: The space between star systems. Thanks to the game code, one cannot travel between systems using the regular three drives (and one would probably die of old age if one did!). But if one did (and the Generation ships presumably do), this would be the space one would be in.

3) The space inside the tunnel: Experienced when the 4th drive (Witchspace/Hyperspace Drive) operates normally. The space inside the tunnel has been called hyperspace by some, witchspace by others.

4) The space outside the tunnel: experienced when using the 4th drive and something goes wrong (or one purposefully "misjumps"). This space has called been called witchspace by some, interstellar space by others. One can see the stars, but in a bizarre murky green haze, and one seems unable to reach them (game code again, one presumes).

Again, not trying to tell people how to talk, but wanting to decipher what different people use the same words to mean.

Have I made any mistakes? I am presuming that (2) is different from (4).

Reference:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Hyperspace wrote:

KZ9999 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:14 pm

The confusion about the hyperspace/witchspace terminology comes from the original Acorn version manual and novella. Ian Bell & David Braben used ''hyperspace'' as their term of choice in the The Space Traders Flight Training Manual. Robert Holdstock used ''witchspace'' by habit in his Dark Wheel novella: it's found in many of his other SF novels, if my memory serves me correctly. Subsequent versions of the game's in-game text and documents have mixed both. It's now reached the point that Mr Braben's later versions of the game mix both terms pretty randomly.

Whilst some individuals have rigidly stuck with the use of either one term or the other - and some have used one for the tunnel and the other for the region where one is stranded in a misjump - overall the use of the two terms is utterly confused, which will undoubtedly reflect their use amongst the billions of people in the thousands of systems of the 8 galaxies!

Terminological Exactitude is further challenged by the use of the term "Interstellar Space" for the region where one is stranded in a misjump. Admittedly, one can see stars even if they seem to be unreachable. But the appearance of the space seems unlike what one would expect a Generation ship to encounter as it made its way from one star system to another.

I've always assumed that 2) and 4) are the same thing: that a misjump spills the player out of witchspace into interstellar space. The "green haze" could be explained as an artefact of the onboard imaging system - built to deal with the radiation levels within a stellar system - trying to cope with the much lower light levels of interstellar space.

This is my interpretation, anyway. I can't remember offhand but I *think* that if you misjump, the F6 screen will show you as being midway between the origin system and your destination - which, I think, supports the idea that you've been knocked out of witchspace back into normal space, albeit a very long way away from where you'd like to be.

<chortles>

1 should be Intrasystem Space; 2 and 4 are the same (Interstellar Space); 3 is Witchspace or Hyperspace (the game says Witchspace during countdown, but under the hood, you need a hyperspace motor to jump between systems. Wiki/Ships says Hyperspace capable).

The tunnel should probably be called a wormhole, seeing as we have a Wormhole Scanner.

I *think* that if you misjump, the F6 screen will show you as being midway between the origin system and your destination

Correct! And F5 will show your location as Interstellar Space.

A question for the boffins: I've improved the Wormhole Scanner's wiki page. What determines a wormhole's duration? The ship's mass? In the case of multiple ships (a freighter plus escorts, or a squad of hunters), is it the total mass? Or is it something simpler?

Cody wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:08 pm

A question for the boffins: I've improved the Wormhole Scanner's wiki page. What determines a wormhole's duration? The ship's mass? In the case of multiple ships (a freighter plus escorts, or a squad of hunters), is it the total mass? Or is it something simpler?

Correct on all counts, Cody. It's the cumulative mass of every ship that has been sucked in.

Thankee, Admiral!

The Space Traders Flight Training Manual (Classic Elite game box) calls #3 hyperspace:

On arrival in a new planetary system, after transit from hyperspace (p21)

Ian Bell calls #4 Witch Space:

6. How do I force a mis-jump/entry to "witch space"?
On 6502 versions, this is achieved by engaging maximum "climb" as the hyperspace countdown times out. On the BBC version, you may have to pause the game, press CTRL_X, and then resume to enable this.
7. How do I escape from "witch space"?
Mis-jumps take the ammount of fuel required for the intended jump. If the remaining fuel is adequate you can hyperspace again. This will always be possible if the intended jump was less than 3.5 LY on a full tank. If you don't have enough fuel for another jump, you are doomed unless you have an escape capsule which IIRC does still work (though strictly speaking it shoudn't).

From http://www.elitehomepage.org/faq.htm#A6

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:43 pm

Ian Bell calls #4 Witch Space:

I don't care; he's wrong. And "witchspace" is all one word.

[Paging Commander Bell. Paging Commander Bell]

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:43 pm

The Space Traders Flight Training Manual (Classic Elite game box) calls #3 hyperspace:

On arrival in a new planetary system, after transit from hyperspace (p21)

Ian Bell calls #4 Witch Space:

6. How do I force a mis-jump/entry to "witch space"?
On 6502 versions, this is achieved by engaging maximum "climb" as the hyperspace countdown times out. On the BBC version, you may have to pause the game, press CTRL_X, and then resume to enable this.
7. How do I escape from "witch space"?
Mis-jumps take the ammount of fuel required for the intended jump. If the remaining fuel is adequate you can hyperspace again. This will always be possible if the intended jump was less than 3.5 LY on a full tank. If you don't have enough fuel for another jump, you are doomed unless you have an escape capsule which IIRC does still work (though strictly speaking it shoudn't).

From http://www.elitehomepage.org/faq.htm#A6

I'm not sure that your interpretation of the above is necessarily accurate...

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:26 pm

There are 4 types of "space" in Oolite.

1) Intrastellar Space: The space inside a star system. This is usually experienced while using the first 3 drives in a ship: regular engine drive, witch fuel injectors & torus jump drive.

2) Interstellar Space: The space between star systems. Thanks to the game code, one cannot travel between systems using the regular three drives (and one would probably die of old age if one did!). But if one did (and the Generation ships presumably do), this would be the space one would be in.

3) The space inside the tunnel: Experienced when the 4th drive (Witchspace/Hyperspace Drive) operates normally. The space inside the tunnel has been called hyperspace by some, witchspace by others.

4) The space outside the tunnel: experienced when using the 4th drive and something goes wrong (or one purposefully "misjumps"). This space has called been called witchspace by some, interstellar space by others. One can see the stars, but in a bizarre murky green haze, and one seems unable to reach them (game code again, one presumes).

Again, not trying to tell people how to talk, but wanting to decipher what different people use the same words to mean.

Have I made any mistakes? I am presuming that (2) is different from (4).

You also appear to be presuming that (3) is different from (4) which then begs the question as to what the "tunnel" might be.

Elite Manual wrote:

(N.B. Bounty on Thargoid invasion craft destroyed is very high. Thargoid battle-cruisers believed to be able to "hover" in Witch-Space (hyperspace) and destroy through-coming craft).

Hovering in something to destroy through-coming entities suggests that the boundary between (3) and (4) is either flimsy or entirely illusory. If it were a conventional tunnel then the craft wouldn't be coming through witch space (hyperspace) but rather avoiding it.

So how else could one interpret it?

Some sort of forward 'wake' of a ship's transit perhaps?
The ripple through witchspace rather than the avoidance of witchspace altogether.

So the very 'setting' of the destination by the hyperdrive creates the pull (not push) to get you there.
The quirium fuel? To power/access the pull required rather than to propel you there itself.

That would make the tunnel an effect of the transit interacting with the medium rather than a shield from the medium itself.
I'm aware that it can be possible to avoid contact with a material whilst passing through it (water off a duck's back etc.) but in order to do so one is typically interacting with (and passing through) that very same medium.

Perhaps this 'slipstream' of 'intention' (instantaneous) facilitates faster travel (ordinarily laborious) within this 'other space' by an order of magnitude that we are entirely unfamiliar with... Irony is that I probably should have saved that for the theoretical sci-fi masterpiece that I'll likely never write on account of the described effect being woefully inadequate within the 'space' that I'm actually familiar with ...

Redspear wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:52 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:26 pm

There are 4 types of "space" in Oolite.

1) Intrastellar Space: The space inside a star system. This is usually experienced while using the first 3 drives in a ship: regular engine drive, witch fuel injectors & torus jump drive.

2) Interstellar Space: The space between star systems. Thanks to the game code, one cannot travel between systems using the regular three drives (and one would probably die of old age if one did!). But if one did (and the Generation ships presumably do), this would be the space one would be in.

3) The space inside the tunnel: Experienced when the 4th drive (Witchspace/Hyperspace Drive) operates normally. The space inside the tunnel has been called hyperspace by some, witchspace by others.

4) The space outside the tunnel: experienced when using the 4th drive and something goes wrong (or one purposefully "misjumps"). This space has called been called witchspace by some, interstellar space by others. One can see the stars, but in a bizarre murky green haze, and one seems unable to reach them (game code again, one presumes).

Again, not trying to tell people how to talk, but wanting to decipher what different people use the same words to mean.

Have I made any mistakes? I am presuming that (2) is different from (4).

You also appear to be presuming that (3) is different from (4) which then begs the question as to what the "tunnel" might be.

Elite Manual wrote:

(N.B. Bounty on Thargoid invasion craft destroyed is very high. Thargoid battle-cruisers believed to be able to "hover" in Witch-Space (hyperspace) and destroy through-coming craft).

Hovering in something to destroy through-coming entities suggests that the boundary between (3) and (4) is either flimsy or entirely illusory. If it were a conventional tunnel then the craft wouldn't be coming through witch space (hyperspace) but rather avoiding it.

So how else could one interpret it?

Some sort of forward 'wake' of a ship's transit perhaps?
The ripple through witchspace rather than the avoidance of witchspace altogether.

So the very 'setting' of the destination by the hyperdrive creates the pull (not push) to get you there.
The quirium fuel? To power/access the pull required rather than to propel you there itself.

That would make the tunnel an effect of the transit interacting with the medium rather than a shield from the medium itself.
I'm aware that it can be possible to avoid contact with a material whilst passing through it (water off a duck's back etc.) but in order to do so one is typically interacting with (and passing through) that very same medium.

Perhaps this 'slipstream' of 'intention' (instantaneous) facilitates faster travel (ordinarily laborious) within this 'other space' by an order of magnitude that we are entirely unfamiliar with... Irony is that I probably should have saved that for the theoretical sci-fi masterpiece that I'll likely never write on account of the described effect being woefully inadequate within the 'space' that I'm actually familiar with ...

All I'm really trying to do is nail down how the various terms are used. I can see 4 possible varieties of "space" which the various terms might refer to.

Personally speaking - I see 2 and 4 as different for the reasons given above and elsewhere on this board (and the argument that the green haze is due to low light levels seems bizarre given the nature of what I am looking at when it happens: the quality of the green haze changes considerably depending on where I'm facing. I also read elsewhere that "interstellar planets glow". All this does not seem to tally with the argument that I'm merely half way between two stellar systems). I am well aware that it is not just the big D & Cody who disagree - UKEliter & Commander McLane clearly agree with them (as evidenced by the appellations of their respective oxp's). I wonder if this might be due to something in previous versions of Elite? Some literature, or a different experience: What I don't know is what happens in all the other versions of Elite when one misjumps. Did Aegidian get the "misjump space" from elsewhere or is it peculiar to Oolite?

It seems that there are a number of arguments either way. Fine. Again, what I really wish to do is nail down the usage of terminology.

But, your thinking is provocative!

Looking at the arguments, so far we have:

Arguments that Space #2 = Space #4
Ockham's Razor: why invent a different type of space when you don't need it?
F6 Map: shows one is half-way between the two star systems.

Counterarguments:
Space #4 is physically different (green haze/glowing planets)
What else would the F6 map show?

Related quibbles
Hyper/WitchSpace jumps: The lack of change in laser/cabin temperature; lack of recharge of shields/energy banks

So.... if Spaces #2, #3 & #4 are all the same (as argued very nicely above: I do like the argument, although remain unconvinced), this lack of change can be due only to instantaneous travel (as argued by Disembodied elsewhere).

If not, then there may well be an ontological distinction between #3 & #4 preventing recharge/normalization "in" the tunnel, but allowing this in misjump situations "outside" the tunnel. But, if the travel is truly instantaneous, why does my clock reset... and why does the travel take time?

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:02 pm

But, if the travel is truly instantaneous, why does my clock reset... and why does the travel take time?

Coming soon, hopefully - see here.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:02 pm

All I'm really trying to do is nail down how the various terms are used.

Understood but it's tricky...

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:02 pm

It seems that there are a number of arguments either way. Fine. Again, what I really wish to do is nail down the usage of terminology.

I'm just here for the theorising and trying to spot [pun_mode_off]holes[pun_mode_off] in arguments (including/especially my own).

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:02 pm

But, your thinking is provocative!

You've read some of my posts before, right?

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:02 pm

Arguments that Space #2 = Space #4
Ockham's Razor: why invent a different type of space when you don't need it?
F6 Map: shows one is half-way between the two star systems.

Counterarguments:
Space #4 is physically different (green haze/glowing planets)
What else would the F6 map show?

This is a perecptual/categorical distinction: it need not be truly different in order to appear so.
I've changed my hair!
Have you? It still looks like yours...

Re the map, how else can your map display it without being a map of witchspace itself (whatever that is).

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:02 pm

Related quibbles
Hyper/WitchSpace jumps: The lack of change in laser/cabin temperature; lack of recharge of shields/energy banks

So.... if Spaces #2, #3 & #4 are all the same (as argued very nicely above: I do like the argument, although remain unconvinced), this lack of change can be due only to instantaneous travel (as argued by Disembodied elsewhere).

If not, then there may well be an ontological distinction between #3 & #4 preventing recharge/normalization "in" the tunnel, but allowing this in misjump situations "outside" the tunnel. But, if the travel is truly instantaneous, why does my clock reset... and why does the travel take time?

Does the clock speed up to represent that the player has experienced the passing of time (in game) or rather that the player hasn't experienced it at the same speed whilst travelling through this strange land (like in various folk stories from around the world). This could be used to explain your first quibble (which seems to me to also overlap with your others). If it's meant to be the former then there's an argument that it should have been used for masslocks too...

I'm not entirely convinced by my own argument above either but I do believe that it (currently at least) remains functionally useful in illustrating that there are other ways to look at the essential issue (i.e. standardisation of language).

If we're not only talking about space but also about travel through it then that suggests more than one word e.g. air/flight, water/swim, witchspace/hyperspace? Further, it suggests ways of thinking around the interpretations of whether or not your distinctions are truly distict or merely peceptual (e.g. inside/outside tunnel).

FWIW, I think I was only arguing that #3 and #4 could be the same and not necessarily also the same as #2. As you put it:

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:02 pm

What else would the F6 map show?

Your map has simply plotted you between your known point of departure and your desired destination. As the map equates distance with fuel consumption then where true distance might be unknown (but heading and remaining fuel are) then calculating that distance by default doesn't seem entirely unreasonable.

It could be argued that interstellar space and witchspace are not the same and that the player is never in the former. Perhaps the easiest way to argue such is to postulate that the player travels quickly through the latter to avoid travelling slowly through the former.

Thus:

#1 Upon arrival at a system
#2 No means of getting there besides theoretical painful use of torus drive (doesn't exist within the game as a playable space)
#3 Travelling quickly through witchspace
#4 Travelling conventionally through witchspace (pulled out by Thargoids/mis-jump)

So if that were true then #3 and #4 are essentuially the same space/medium (conventional witchspace) as are #1 and #2 (witchspace conventional space).
The #1/#2 distinction would be due to distance from a star and the #3/#4 distiction due to speed of travel.

Not entirely sure but I think that's close to how I imagined it even as a kid (which doesn't necessarily add weight to my argument ).

Cody wrote:

Coming soon, hopefully - see here.

I nearly surprised you with a source code conversion to a more conventional clock (displaying the year) but I must have missed one of the file refernces to the clock after determining how many seconds would be required for each.


Additional...

The above would also add a nice qualifier for torus-drives and hyperdrives.

Conventional speed: can be used anywhere
Torus speed: can be used when free from masslocks (injectors can override but inefficiently so)
Hyper speed: can be used when free from conventional space (requiring a fuel source to power that separation)

EDIT: conventional/witchspace confusion corrected with strikethrough

Redspear wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:14 pm

I nearly surprised you with a source code conversion to a more conventional clock (displaying the year)

I don't need no conventional clock!

Redspear wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:14 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:02 pm

Arguments that Space #2 = Space #4
Ockham's Razor: why invent a different type of space when you don't need it?
F6 Map: shows one is half-way between the two star systems.

Counterarguments:
Space #4 is physically different (green haze/glowing planets)
What else would the F6 map show?

This is a perecptual/categorical distinction: it need not be truly different in order to appear so.
I've changed my hair!
Have you? It still looks like yours...

Re the map, how else can your map display it without being a map of witchspace itself (whatever that is).

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:02 pm

Related quibbles
Hyper/WitchSpace jumps: The lack of change in laser/cabin temperature; lack of recharge of shields/energy banks

So.... if Spaces #2, #3 & #4 are all the same (as argued very nicely above: I do like the argument, although remain unconvinced), this lack of change can be due only to instantaneous travel (as argued by Disembodied elsewhere).

If not, then there may well be an ontological distinction between #3 & #4 preventing recharge/normalization "in" the tunnel, but allowing this in misjump situations "outside" the tunnel. But, if the travel is truly instantaneous, why does my clock reset... and why does the travel take time?

Does the clock speed up to represent that the player has experienced the passing of time (in game) or rather that the player hasn't experienced it at the same speed whilst travelling through this strange land (like in various folk stories from around the world). This could be used to explain your first quibble (which seems to me to also overlap with your others). If it's meant to be the former then there's an argument that it should have been used for masslocks too...

I'm not entirely convinced by my own argument above either but I do believe that it (currently at least) remains functionally useful in illustrating that there are other ways to look at the essential issue (i.e. standardisation of language).

If we're not only talking about space but also about travel through it then that suggests more than one word e.g. air/flight, water/swim, witchspace/hyperspace? Further, it suggests ways of thinking around the interpretations of whether or not your distinctions are truly distict or merely peceptual (e.g. inside/outside tunnel).

FWIW, I think I was only arguing that #3 and #4 could be the same and not necessarily also the same as #2. As you put it:

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:02 pm

What else would the F6 map show?

Your map has simply plotted you between your known point of departure and your desired destination. As the map equates distance with fuel consumption then where true distance might be unknown (but heading and remaining fuel are) then calculating that distance by default doesn't seem entirely unreasonable.

It could be argued that interstellar space and witchspace are not the same and that the player is never in the former. Perhaps the easiest way to argue such is to postulate that the player travels quickly through the latter to avoid travelling slowly through the former.

Thus:

#1 Upon arrival at a system
#2 No means of getting there besides theoretical painful use of torus drive (doesn't exist within the game as a playable space)
#3 Travelling quickly through witchspace
#4 Travelling conventionally through witchspace (pulled out by Thargoids/mis-jump)

So if that were true then #3 and #4 are essentuially the same space/medium (conventional space) as are #1 and #2 (witchspace).
The #1/#2 distinction would be due to distance from a star and the #3/#4 distiction due to speed of travel.

Not entirely sure but I think that's close to how I imagined it even as a kid (which doesn't necessarily add weight to my argument ).

Cody wrote:

Coming soon, hopefully - see here.

I nearly surprised you with a source code conversion to a more conventional clock (displaying the year) but I must have missed one of the file refernces to the clock after determining how many seconds would be required for each.


Additional...

The above would also add a nice qualifier for torus-drives and hyperdrives.

Conventional speed: can be used anywhere
Torus speed: can be used when free from masslocks (injectors can override but inefficiently so)
Hyper speed: can be used when free from conventional space (requiring a fuel source to power that separation)

A couple of quick points - I hope to return to this at more length...

•A tweakable clock conversion is available via Useful MFDs.oxz (default is set to Selezen's timeline).

•I was inhibited from jumping when I was close to a witchpoint buoy (this could be a function of one of my 200-odd oxp's ... I'd be tempted to blame the Redspear ones if it were, just on general principle) - The distinctions between Torus inhibition and Hyperjump inhibition do seem delightfully quirky.

Speeds: I wonder if hyper-speed is a mischaracterization of what is going on? And thus, maybe hyperdrive is too? Do I move through the tunnel - or does the tunnel move around me? I have noticed that my speed can be 0, I wallop the witchdrive button, and bingo! It all happens as if I were moving at velocity. Now, this may be an oversight on behalf of the dreaded developers ... perhaps a combination of the original BBC Elite code mixed with removal of the original "drift" at speed 0. But it remains suggestive.

There are other minor issues (all handwaveable or ignorable):
It does not square with Disembodied's theory of instantaneous travel. It also does not square with the game code - the clock working out current time on arrival. Or with the inability to change speed or alter the travel in the tunnel.