Iron Asses: Caduceus Vs Vortex

[ilNibbio]

Hi guys.
I'd just like to comment about those wonderful crafts.
Got not much experience (I'm deadly with about 4.5K kills), and it's just my opinion.
I flied a powerful Caduceus Omega, but not satisfied, reading on the wiki about iron ass ships, I gained enough crs, and I moved into a fully equipped Vortex, believing it is the best, the top a bounty hunter would ever have.
I was wrooooong.

Sure, Vortex is faster than Caduceus. It has a larger cargo bay (quite annoying to switch it every time though), more pylons (5x5, same), and its front turrets are devastating against close-range targets...moreover it consumes less injected fuel...but
1- first thing, the pitch rate is too high. It's a really good thing to turn your vessel quickly, but with Caduceus I was able to snipe targets from a very long distance, now I can't anymore. Alignment is hard. Targets approach me before I can shoot them. Taking too long to destroy one, the others gets closer and fire..too often I have to run.
2- shields. My Vortex's shields get to zero in a while, don't know why, maybe it's just my feeling.
3- missile machine. Vortex doesn't support it. I use missiles quite rarely (my most used pylon-mounted weapon is the cargo magnet), but I find MM a very handy piece of hardware.
4- turrets. The Caddy triple side-turrets is as devastating at least as the double front turrets of the Vortex. It's a matter of how to use it, with Caduceus you have to fly around the target, instead of in its front.
5- for its low position, the cargo scooping of the Vortex sucks.
6- price. 2M credits for the Vortex is insane.

Perhaps it's just a matter of practice/experience, but I am disappointed by Vortex.
With my glorious Caddy I made those renegade pirates meat sauce....this morning my Vortex got killed by a renegade boa.

So, considering the pros and cons, and all written above, I am now looking for a ship.
I get back to Caduceus.

Or...
can you guys suggest me something?

[Cody]

can you guys suggest me something?

Yeah, an iron-assed Cobra Mk III... heh!

[Commander McLane]

… a powerful Caduceus Omega, but not satisfied, reading on the wiki about iron ass ships … I moved into a fully equipped Vortex …

… I was wrooooong.

Confirmed, you are wrong. An iron ass ship is a Cobra MK III with all the vanilla (no OXP) equipment fitted.

What you're talking about are balance-breaking über ships.

[Smivs]

What they said!
An Iron-Ass Cobra III (all the options available via the core game fitted) is so called because (in terms of the core game) nothing else will come close. If you fly one your ship is going to be better than anything else you will come across by a huge margin, in all respects. Staying with the core ships, an Iron-Ass Boa Class Cruiser is all but indestructable, and with a skillful pilot will hold its own against any OXP ship, or large numbers of standard ships even if toughened-up by an OXP such as Tough Guys.
As Commander McLane points out the ships you are discussing are Uber-ships. Ships which are so out of step with the core game they are not really relevant to most of us or the game we play. Picture the Greek seige of Troy, then throw in a modern-day Battle Tank and you'll get the idea.

[NigelJK]

IIRC in the original Elite the only craft that would out do an Iron-Ass (the term came form the Novella) was the Constrictor.

[ilNibbio]

Ok guys, I agree with you.
Both Caduceus and Vortex, compared to a Cobra III are totally unbalanced uberships. No doubt.
The point is: are you an estimator of classic Elite, so you'll fly cobras, boas, pythons, fer-de-lances, and so on, or are you open-minded to oxps?
If you are in the first group, an ironass MkIII would be your choice. If you are a good pilot, even an ironassed Boa would do.
But what if you like oxps' ships?
Oxps, imho, are a great improvement to the gameplay, at least the most of them.
I didn't cheat, I gained all my credits with hard work on the skylanes (and staying clean), so I didn't see anything wrong in buying a Vortex. My life now would be easier than yours, ok, but I paid 2M Crs for it.

But you all seems to be in the first group.

[Thargoid]

And if you want sniping, the Vortex has a gun-cam (custom view) which is designed for that very purpose. It also has a scoop-cam, to assist with your seeming issues with cargo-grabbing.

The cargo bays and missile bays are both because a) having all that tonnage and pylons in one would make the ship too much even for an uber-ship, and b) the whole thing was basically me playing about and getting a few script ideas off my drawing board and into play without having to write another half-dozen OXPs.

The shields are the same in both craft, so that's just a weird perception.

And the MM blockage (and some other equipment too) is simply because they take up cargo space, or will do in 1.77 and so won't work with the bay switcher.

[Smivs]

Well, it's each to his own isn't it.
Uber-ships are certainly popular with some of our members, and they are there to be bought/used, so...
My 'main' Commander flies a (OXP) Boa Clipper which is tame compared to the Caddys and Vortexes, but some would still consider it a bit uber, and TBH I was getting fed up of cruising around in it, almost invulnerable and blowing-away any 'baddies' that crossed my path with ease. So much so that some time ago I wrote the original ToughGuys OXP to try to make things a bit more challenging, then made TG even tougher. It wasn't the answer. So I went back to basics and started a new Commander who will stay with his Cobra III. It's not even Iron-Assed yet (no Military Shields and certainly no Naval Energy Unit) but I still run ToughGuys and the fun is back
Tooling around in a ship that is almost indestructible, repairs itself and even has turrets to do much of the hard work for you just seems so pointless. It removes the skill, and the fun, and really just defeats the whole point of the game.
Getting those first few hundred kills in an ill-equiped Cobby has far more kudos and earns far more respect than getting to Elite the easy way with an uber ship. That's just like buying a degree from a dodgy University - ultimately worthless.
And finally, just to put things in context, I would never buy/fly an uber-ship for all the reasons stated above, but as an OXP author I couldn't resist the temptation to make one!

[ilNibbio]

Allright. I got it.
You're saying that, you're so experienced players you'll find no fun in flying a Caddy, or another uber.
I understand that point of view.
Maybe in my future career, I'll get to the same point.
For the time being, I'm still enough noob to fly a ubership. Then probably I'll get bored of my superiority and I'll start a new commander flying nothing but Cobras III.

@Smivs: your WonderWorm seems too uber, even for me!!!

@Thargoid: I've found the scoop camera, it helps. About sniping, the point is the high pitch and yaw rate. It makes aiming quite difficult (I use keyboard). For cargo bays and pylons, I consider switching a little trade-off for being so powerful.

[Cody]

About sniping, the point is the high pitch and yaw rate. It makes aiming quite difficult (I use keyboard).

I believe the next release of Oolite will have a Keyboard Precision Toggle (as joystick users already have), which will help with that - it's already available in trunk.

As for flying an über-ship - it's an old, tired discussion, but my opinion is obvious - I fly a Cobra Mk III (always have done, except during some OXP testing). I actually get a good feeling every time the game kills me (whilst cursing mightily, of course) - I have a well-balanced game, and I've earned each and every kill!

[Commander McLane]

Ok guys, I agree with you.
Both Caduceus and Vortex, compared to a Cobra III are totally unbalanced uberships. No doubt.
The point is: are you an estimator of classic Elite, so you'll fly cobras, boas, pythons, fer-de-lances, and so on, or are you open-minded to oxps?
If you are in the first group, an ironass MkIII would be your choice. If you are a good pilot, even an ironassed Boa would do.
But what if you like oxps' ships?
Oxps, imho, are a great improvement to the gameplay, at least the most of them.
I didn't cheat, I gained all my credits with hard work on the skylanes (and staying clean), so I didn't see anything wrong in buying a Vortex. My life now would be easier than yours, ok, but I paid 2M Crs for it.

But you all seems to be in the first group.

Not at all, because that's a totally false dichotomy. I love OXPs, I've personally created a fair share of them, and I'm flying an Imperial Courier (which is arguably verging into über territory, I admit). But I wouldn't consider flying a Caddy or a Vortex, because these ships are tipping the balance IMO. They are in a totally different league from all the rest of the ships, thus for me they don't feel right in the Ooniverse.

The important sentence of yours is "Oxps, imho, are a great improvement to the gameplay, at least the most of them.", especially the second part. In my opinion Caduceus OXP and Vortex OXP are among those OXPs which are not an improvement to the gameplay (although I have Caduceus OXP installed, because it's fun to kill them ). That's the judgement which each player has to make when playing this game.

So, if somebody for a good reason criticizes an OXP you like, please don't assume that they hate OXPs in general. They just have a good reason not to like that specific OXP.

[Thargoid]

As McLane says, the ships aren't for everyone, but they are for some (the Vortex has been downloaded more than 1500 times, and the Caddy more than that I'd estimate from the time I hosted it for ClymAngus).

But there are elements who just want to blow stuff up, although neither ship is invulnerable (at least unless you add my ooCheat too, which itself has over 1400 downloads). It's an age-old discussion and one that won't ever stop, and nor should it.

[Yah-Ta-Hey]

Ilnibbio-
I have flown a vortex for most of my space time... I have over 14000 kills (95% from the vortex). I am Elite for some time now. HOWEVER
something happened that threw that all away.... I got a polymorphous trojan which not only created havoc but actually destroyed my harddrive's partioning along with it, all my saves, records and notations that I had made in regards to everything that I did on my computer.
I replaced the harddrive and started over... I am in the process of building up cash however, I am staying with the Cobra III and stay as free of additional game breakers as possible. currently at 0 kills, 26,000 credits visiting Tionsla to pickup computers. Good luck with your pursuit of excellence in your caudecus.

Yah-ta-Hey pilot of Tatanka II

[Cody]

... I got a polymorphous trojan which not only created havoc but actually destroyed my harddrive's partioning along with it, all my saves, records and notations that I had made in regards to everything that I did on my computer.

That is harsh - my commiserations, sky brother!

... I am staying with the Cobra III and stay as free of additional game breakers as possible.

This is good, however - may your long-lances fly true!

[Smivs]

...experienced players you'll find no fun in flying a Caddy, or another uber.
...I'm still enough noob to fly a ubership....

I don't think it really has anything to do with experience as such, but I do believe that the best way to learn and develop skills is by getting your hands dirty. I started with a Mk 1 Cobra - I sold the Mk III straight away and bought a Mk I and a bit of kit with the cash freed up, and slugged it out in that until I could 'upgrade' to a Python. It wasn't an easy course, but I did quickly learn how to survive out there, and that's a skillset which has served me very well ever since.
And I suppose it has influenced my opinions as well. Simply knowing that it is possible to not just survive, but succeed in these humble ships and have a real blast doing it makes me wonder why others choose what is to me the easy and boring route of Uberness. And the sense of satisfaction, the buzz you get after the successful conclusion of a major battle against far superior (on paper) forces is something an Uber-ship pilot will never know.