A New Commander's Hurdles

[mandoman]

My brother tried to play Oolite after I told him of it. He is several years older than I, but likes to play simple computer games, like Solitaire, and Hearts. He is also a computer programer, and has designed, or been in on designing business programs for several different companies. When he tried Oolite, he couldn't handle it. I nearly laughed at him, being as he is a computer whiz, while I'm just Joe Shmuck stumbling around with Java script, HTML, etc. I asked him in what way he was having trouble. His response puzzled me for a while, but it got me thinking about the basic starting point for an Oolite player. He said that he couldn't understand how to survive on such a small amount of cash, and practically no way of fighting back with any effectiveness against pirates. He also couldn't figure out how to dock, LOL!!!

Maybe starting EVERYONE out as a lowly Commander with nothing but a few hundred galactic credits to your name is not such a good idea. He is not as truculent as I, so was not able to keep pounding at the game until I made imagined pirates, and other reprobates pay for how they used me when I first started. My answer was to fight back, while others figure out the route to trading. I picked that secret up off of this forum, or I don't believe I would have ever figured it out. Maybe there should be easier levels offered to beginners, that disappear once they have reached a certain savvy in game play. One thing I think would have helped me along at first, would have been at least a chance of out running the pirates. I'm talking about adding Witch drive fuel injectors as standard equipment to the Cobra Mk III. I know there is a document out that helps with trading tips, but it isn't overly obvious to a beginner, and I would think it would be one of the first things a beginner should have access to. I don't know, none of this occurred to me when I first started the game, but I think my brother might have stuck with it more with a little extra push at the beginning. I can't help but think that there are several others out there that are "might have been Oolite players", but gave up in frustration. I have the impression that Oolite was MEANT to be for the game starving masses, and not really for the Elite of the gamer world.

I'm not trying to tell the Oolite team what to do, but am just expressing my thoughts on how hard it is for beginners in this game. Just my humble opinion.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

Yes, Oolite doesn't suffer fools and has a stiff learning curve which is the main reason many give up after their first botched flight. "Yay, I survived my maiden flight and got to the station... Eh? Docking on that tiny spinning slot? You must be joking!"

It does take some practice, and by the time you can afford the docking computer you no longer need it - you may even be able to dock at full injectors by then, but all this is part of the "fun".

Nevertheless, if you think it'll help getting him to give it another try, you can either give him your save game or use the OoCheat OXP.

[Mauiby de Fug]

I do remember that in ArcElite, there was a thing called Rent-a-Dock, which was only available from a certain tech-level upwards (what, I can't remember). If you didn't have your own docking computers, then you would pay a fee (50 Cr rings a bell) and the station's own computers would take control and dock you. You had to pay the fee each time. I wonder if something like that might help some commanders...

I have to say, though, docking is far easier in Oolite. I didn't have Navigation buoys to help me learn!

[Cmdr. Maegil]

Not for beginners, who start with only 100cr...

[Mauiby de Fug]

Oh, yes, it was rather expensive! But some might prefer a hefty fee and a rather reduced profit in place of smashing into the station wall...

Personally, I reckon every Jameson should take his ship out and learn how to fly/dock it with some degree of success before attempting to leave the safety of the aegis. Launch, come to a full stop, about turn, and practice flying through the letter box a few times. Once they can do that, then they just need to realise that all they need to do is park themselves on the line between Nav buoy and the station and then they are back to the first step!

[mandoman]

Oh, yes, it was rather expensive! But some might prefer a hefty fee and a rather reduced profit in place of smashing into the station wall...

Personally, I reckon every Jameson should take his ship out and learn how to fly/dock it with some degree of success before attempting to leave the safety of the aegis. Launch, come to a full stop, about turn, and practice flying through the letter box a few times. Once they can do that, then they just need to realise that all they need to do is park themselves on the line between Nav buoy and the station and then they are back to the first step!

OK, you have solved the dilemma of docking for beginners. What about pirates, and speed, and defense, all of which a beginner has no way to address with the funds available. I know it is part of the game, but if it was seen as a necessary step to create a cheat oxp, maybe it would be better to give a beginner a better push off from the beginning, without having to cheat to do it. I never cheat, of course...ahem, but for those that do the game certainly is easier. The trick is knowing HOW to cheat, and that isn't always crystal clear to anyone just starting the game, with no real knowledge of computers.

[Bugbear]

<withered old grogan voice>In my day, I didn't even have an instruction manual, and had to work out the keys by trial and error, and I was happy</withered old grogan voice>

Seriously, though, the fact is you do start off in one of the best ships in the vanilla shipset, admittedly seriously underpowered. And as others have mentioned, the initial learning curve is very steep.

I remember the interactive training that was available in Tie Fighter. Lesson 1 was targeting and systems control, with the instructor telling you what buttons to press, and when.

Wouldn't it be great to have the Lave dockmaster take you out on a guided first flight to the nav beacon and back, and make this a mandatory exercise before you can get your hyperdrive enabled.

<oops, better get back to work before someone twiggs to the fact that I'm not actually writing code right now...>

[Switeck]

After making your first hyperspace jump, you could wait at the witchpoint beacon for a large trader convoy to start its way to the station...and then follow them from a safe distance. (read: barely on your radar in front of you.)
Or avoid the straight route to the station.
Or just wait an hour after first appearing at the witchpoint beacon and then going to the station -- by then, the numerous traders that tried to run that gauntlet should have killed most/all the pirates.

Manual docking is unavoidable without cheating. By the time you're decent at it, dogfighting single pirates won't seem so hard.

[Disembodied]

To be honest, any attempt to modify the starting conditions runs up against the fact that Elite was designed for 8-bit, 32K computers 25 years ago. You couldn't change ships, and the universe was procedurally generated. This isn't something that can be fixed with a few options: it would require a complete strip-down of the game and a rebuild, IMO, with a set of safe core systems for beginners to practice in, some low-end package run missions so you don't need to carry bulk cargo to make money, a restructuring of the ship and equipment costs – not to mention discarding the masslock and switching to a fully functional TAF system, making it possible to use ships slower than a Cobra III without going crazy.

There already is an option for players wanting to start with a bit more equipment, anyway: sell the Cobra III and buy (say) a Cobra I with some pre-installed kit.

[ClymAngus]

I think it's important to realise one of the main joys of oolite (apart from the sandbox, which is big and full of toys) is the nostalgia value. Oolite is a remake of a game that has to be viewed in the context of it's peers and it's time.

To look at the game if this age purely through modern eyes horrendously devalues it (and to be honest what has been collectively achieved here). If you think oolite is hard try manic miner....... To change the fundamentals of a game like this is to separate it from it's rich history and the shared experiences of those who came to love it.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

Not only the nostalgia, but the difficulty level itself is one of the things it made Elite so memorable.

It reminds me of Rainbow Six - the first one it was so "Nintendo Hard" most people got shot and killed just by opening the first door... repeatedly (I finished the game). In comparison, the second was made much easier, to the point of being boringly unchallenging.

Oolite, due to its OXPs, can be made as easy or hard as one may want as even cheating isn't, well, cheating (please forget boolean logic, i really mean this).

[snork]

He said that he couldn't understand how to survive on such a small amount of cash, and practically no way of fighting back with any effectiveness against pirates.

...figure out the route to trading. I picked that secret up off of this forum, or I don't believe I would have ever figured it out.

It's all in the manual(s), particularly in the Advice for new Commanders, which is named that way for a reason.

I agree it may be not the most easy read for non-native-English readers, with all the accent / idiom and the, errm, in-ooniverse figures of speech and such, so maybe us players should try to translate it into many languages.
Or / and maybe the most important things could be bolded in the text ? (e..g. "Until then you'd best stick to the cop-end worlds : Democracies and Corporates, Confederacies maybe if you're feeling lucky.")
(I am referring to the pdf, I can not open the .doc, my old version of wordpad freaks when I try to)

I know there is a document out that helps with trading tips, but it isn't overly obvious to a beginner, and I would think it would be one of the first things a beginner should have access to.

Huh ? How is it not obvious ? How do you think it could be made more obvious ?

I mean, players will have to find the docs in the first place, if only to find out about the controls.

He also couldn't figure out how to dock, LOL!!!
....
Maybe there should be easier levels offered to beginners, that disappear once they have reached a certain savvy in game play.

Hmhm, I can see how a galactic sector "zero" for beginners could be nice - sth. like a tutorial level.

And I think to remember that at some point in Oolite history, Lave Academy (and maybe also another beginner-friendly oxp, I forget, maybe Traffic Control ?) had been included in the (trunk?) download - which I found to be a good idea per se, but maybe it is against some distribution policy (no oxps in the vanilla download or such ?) ?
<- Those were false memories. I think I really may need to do sth. about my memory.

Maybe starting EVERYONE out as a lowly Commander with nothing but a few hundred galactic credits to your name is not such a good idea.

Oh but yes it is!
It gives me player incentive(s), something(s) to aim for.
The opposite of "Seen everything, flown every ship, killed everyone, done every mission there is, a billion credits in the bank, nothing left to do."

I'm talking about adding Witch drive fuel injectors as standard equipment to the Cobra Mk III.

Hell no!

And btw. the only standard ships you can really not run away from in a Cobra3 should be the Asp 2 and the Sidewinder.

If a player adds lots of uberships (or uberweapons, btw.) then any frustrating results are their own fault. Particularly if they did not read the docs.

I have the impression that Oolite was MEANT to be for the game starving masses, and not really for the Elite of the gamer world.

I am in no way a serious gamer, with hardly any experience in 3D gaming but classic Tomb Raider (and P.O.D. - ) so I feel I am the opposite to "Elite of the gamer world". I only ever played original Elite for few hours on a friend's Amiga 500 - and then in Oolite found docking, and generally surviving, to be WAY easier.
From my horrible docking failing experience with original Elite, I had been aiming to buy a docking computer ASAP in Oolite, but by the time I had the money I no longer felt the necessity for it. Me being this mediocre player, I find it hard to think others could have more trouble with it. (as long as played with joystick or gamepad !)

Of course I got killed lots of times in the beginning, but so what ? It only made me more careful - sticking to "safe" worlds, waiting for convois or police squads to accompany them, not rushing in on groups of unknown ships, .....

[mandoman]

Once again, I was simply stating my opinions. Whether you agree, or not is your business, but I will continue to believe that beginners need a little more than an under powered ship, with wimpy weapons and 100 credits to their name. It wasn't quite as big a deal to me, or others that have played several other types of space battle games, but to someone without that experience it is daunting, to say the least. You guys that view it as a nostalgic thing, well, to put the game out where anyone can access it, and then expect them to view it in the same light is pretty unreasonable. Not trying to take away your memories, or nostalgic feelings for the game, I'm just pointing out that if you want more people to be interested, maybe it would be nice if they at least could first learn to operate the ship before getting ganged up on by pirates. Some very good ideas were put forth by some of you, but a couple of you are the reason why this game will continue to be only for the experts at cheating, or those familiar with the older game on which they learned. I admit to falling in the first group, like it or not.

[DaddyHoggy]

Once again, I was simply stating my opinions. Whether you agree, or not is your business, but I will continue to believe that beginners need a little more than an under powered ship, with wimpy weapons and 100 credits to their name. It wasn't quite as big a deal to me, or others that have played several other types of space battle games, but to someone without that experience it is daunting, to say the least. You guys that view it as a nostalgic thing, well, to put the game out where anyone can access it, and then expect them to view it in the same light is pretty unreasonable. Not trying to take away your memories, or nostalgic feelings for the game, I'm just pointing out that if you want more people to be interested, maybe it would be nice if they at least could first learn to operate the ship before getting ganged up on by pirates. Some very good ideas were put forth by some of you, but a couple of you are the reason why this game will continue to be only for the experts at cheating, or those familiar with the older game on which they learned. I admit to falling in the first group, like it or not.

The player who isn't prepared to make an effort to start the way the game was designed to be played probably wouldn't commit to Oolite long term anyway.

I think of loads of games where the player starts off lowly and builds up towards superiority - the original Command and Commander, where you got access to more new units as the battles you were expected to fight got harder and more complicated. Grand Theft Auto San Andreas - you run around on foot for a while punching people, before you build up to big cars and missile launchers - are two types of other games that come instantly to mind that fit this pattern. I got bored of GTA:SA, not because I had to start small and get bigger, but because it was actually so horribly restrictive - this alleged fully interacting world I couldn't actually go out play in it because I had to do the "missions" - the illusion of free-play. While Oolite is less complicated, it's considerably less restrictive - once armed with even just a beam laser you're more than a match for the basic vanilla pirates in ones or even twos and the reason you start the game where you do is that you should have nice safe milk runs to start with.

I just think Oolite isn't the game for your brother and therefore Oolite should not be altered at all to suit him (or others like him).

[Star Gazer]

This is bound to be a tricky issue. Games have changed so much in the last 30 years, and I doubt that many would want to go back to the sorts of games that were available then, that it is difficult for those of us who have witnessed the changes along the way to fully appreciate the expectations of much more recent computer gamers. Oolite has accumulated a large amount of eye candy over Elite, but still remains the premier trading + combat space sim for those not expecting kill-fest mega weapons and uber space vessels. It does require patience and skill to play it and survive.

Maybe a new YouTube video could be created, and linked on the front page, that would provide a really clear insight into the basics of Oolite, all based on the Cobra III, so no confusion arises as to what is going on, and what it looks like. A recommendation that it was pretty essential to start playing the game without ANY oxps installed would also help to level the game as the new player sees it. Docking and avoiding combat, until you are ready, by going the 'scenic route' to the station are not obvious actions to the new player. Maybe a new start-up screen could provide a quick guide to this?

I don't know, despite the problems, it is nice to see newer, younger bloods trying Oolite; it shouldn't become just some nostalgia fest for ageing gamers!