Wargame discussion

[Matti]

Let's talk about wargames. But before we start, see this YouTube video

I have collection of books, miniatures and stuff for BattleTech and Warhammer 40,000. I'll post my inventory later time. In the meantime what wargames do you play? We can include boardgames like Axis & Allies and Risk for discussion. Warhammer derivatives HeroQuest, Space Crusade, Space Hulk and the likes too.

[edit]
Warhammer Fantasy Battles is your typical fantasy setting with elves, orcs, undead and the likes. Game boards or maps aren't used, but miniature models are placed and moved on the table or some other surface (like stryfoam). Hills, trees and buildings can be used where models interact way of WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). Line troops are grouped and moved in tight & rigid formations. Some other units, like heroes, mages, monstrous creatures, cannons, and some others, can be moved individually separate from formations.

Warhammer 40,000 is scifi version where Orks have gunz. Warfare covers ordinary human soldiers up to gigantic mechas (with gigantic prices, up to £1000 per model!). Troops aren't forced as rigid formations as in Fantasy Battles: models in group can have up to 2" (inch) intervals. My chosen faction with largest amount of models is Imperial Guard, but I have models and Codexes for Space Marines and Orks too. My Guard army is sizable (over 1700 points), but most of my Marine and Ork models are still waiting in boxes for assembly. Battlefleet Gothic takes WH40k to space, but I don't have any intention of buying any of that.

BattleTech is my favourite wargame. Rich and detailed universe (more so than Warhammers) where time don't stand still (unlike in Warhammers) with THOUSANDS of different metal miniatures to choose from. Though miniature rules exist, I prefer my BattleTech with cardboard or paper maps filled with hexagons (hex for short). Gameplay can be very detailed and time consuming, depending how much of the available rules are used. Even with less than 100 page thick Introductory Rulebook (PDF here), even small sized battle can take considerably longer than Warhammer game with more models on the table. I blame it for record sheets which are used to track features of given unit, its damage and ammunition consumption. But those who dare face hundreds, even thousands pages of rules, are rewarded with universe, possibilities and experience from underwater up to deep space and everything between, war and RPG alike. Ever wanted toss nukes down from planet's orbit? BattleTech has rules for that.

[DaddyHoggy]

***Duplicate Post***

[DaddyHoggy]

I use to play WH Fantasy Battle and 40K and 40K Epic, but like you Battletech was my favourite, I used to GM Mechwarrior and play out the story line battles in Battletch - Mech Pilots try much harder when their Mechwarrior character is inside the 'Mech.

I even built myself a couple of Dropships out of Giant Easter Egg Plastic protectors and old ship/aircraft model kits.

There was a really good Battletech game on the Amiga which I can't remember the name of (but I do remember it flickered on a normal TV due to the high res screen being interlaced)

My favourite Mech BTW was a Grasshopper - I won the Sunderland Branch of Games Workshop Battletech Battle Royal with a Grasshopper (and came 3rd the year after) - I loved that Mech (it's now lost - I loaned it and all my other Mechs to my Brother-in-law just before my sister announced they were divorcing and I never saw my stuff again...) [10 years later and I'm still bitter...]

[Oathbreaker]

Owned a lot of GW stuff, but never actually played WH or 40k, books are more accessible and simple and don't require travel or finding people or dealing with them.

Still waiting for the turn-based 3D computer version of WH or WH40K to show up. Vassal engine v40k notwithstanding. Dawn of War - yuck.

Plus the whole hassle and expense and time to build and paint just puts me off.

[DaddyHoggy]

The Warhammer 40K stuff on the DS was OK - two screens and one of them a touch screen worked quite well!

[Disembodied]

Oooh ... I've done a bit of tabletop wargaming in my time: mostly using Tactica and then the (much better, I think) Armati rules sets. Good fun, but it helps if someone else has all the models!

I played quite a few Avalon Hill board wargames, too, of various different types, like Gettysburg, PanzerBlitz, Wooden Ships and Iron Men, Machiavelli, Republic of Rome, Knights of the Air ... then there was other stuff like Britannia, counter-frenzies like Star Fleet Battles ...

BattleTech was in there too, and FASA's Star Trek Combat game, and Star Warriors ... all of which helped me appreciate the value of simplicity in game design, I think! Not that all of these games were overly complex, by any means: but if you play Star Fleet Battles one day and FASA's Star Trek game the next, you rapidly find out that, although Star Fleet Battles offers the player so many more options, ships, races etc., FASA's version was much, much more fun – not least because the rules came on a couple of sheets of A4, and not in several densely typed, thick books.

It's the games with the elegant game mechanics that I enjoyed the most, I think. Supremacy was an absolute belter. A kind of Risk for the nuclear age, it combined economics and warfare into one supremely smooth and easy system. It didn't get bogged down trying to emulate this or simulate that: it just made something that was so simple and straightforward and yet had the potential for all manner of tactical sneakiness, and of balancing immediate gain against future advantage. Plus the game was beautifully physically designed.

[DaddyHoggy]

My work colleague used to run CAST (Command and Staff Trainer) - in many ways the ultimate "real" wargame (20,000 aggregated entities - 200 simultaneous real players...) - but he's an expert on the home run versions and still knocks out the odd game or two when asked to design something from scratch.

Part of this photo stream indicates he still loves desktop maps and figures though: http://www.flickr.com/photos/colonelkil ... s/wargame/

[Matti]

What do you think about following Imperial Guard army?

HQ
Company command squad with lascannon, Carapace armour and Chimera

TROOPS
Platoon command squad with autocannon
2x Infantry squads with missile launcher and grenade launcher
Veteran squad with 3 grenade launchers and carapace armour
4x Chimera with multilaser and heavy bolter

FAST ATTACK
Armoured Sentinel with missile launcher
2x Devil Dog with melta cannon and heavy bolter

Total points: 965

Armoured Fist (mechanized) platoon with light but mobile armour support that can keep up with Chimera APCs. That's not all the models I have assembled and ready to go, but that is what I'm going to use when point limit is 1k. Other models I have: 2 Basilisk, Leman Russ Demolisher, Leman Russ Vanquisher, Tech Priest with some Servitors, some more guardsmen and partially assembled Valkyrie.

My goal is to fill up all the vehicle models up to full squadron each (3x Devil Dog/Hellhound, 3x Sentinel, 3x Valkyrie, 3x Leman Russ, 3x Basilisk, 3x Hydra Flak Tanks) and add sizeable foot infantry company without Chimeras. Valkyries will carry storm troopers (I'll use Space Marine models to save money and becouse storm trooper models aren't available anymore).

For my two other armies I'll make Orks infantry heavy with some vehicle support. I already have tens of boyz and tankbusta models, some nobz, Trukk, Battlewagon, trio of Deffkoptas and Killa Kans waiting for assembly. Space Marines will be fully mechanized with bikers and land speeder squadron for support White Scars style. For heavy support I'll have two Dreadnoughts (waiting for assembly), two Predators and Land Raider carrying Terminator squad.

There was a really good Battletech game on the Amiga which I can't remember the name of

MechForce. There is more recent version which you might be interest about: MegaMek.

Still waiting for the turn-based 3D computer version of WH or WH40K to show up.

Not 3d, but Chaos Gate and Final Liberation. More 3d than those already mentioned: Space Hulk and Space Hulk 2.

[Selezen]

Im my time I have played:

Wargames
----------
Warhammer 40K
Blood Bowl
Risk
Battletech
Space Hulk
Axis & Allies
And the perennial favourite: Star Trek II Starship Combat Simulator

The last one there is still my game of choice simply because it is easy to pick up and play.

RPGs
-----
D&D 1, 2 and 3
Star Trek
Prime Directive
Warhammer FRP
Mech Warrior
Traveller (well, Megatraveller)
Star Wars
Babylon 5
Vampire The Masquerade
Paranoia
UnderGround
Call of Cthulhu
Shadowrun
Earthdawn
Dark Age (based on Cyberpunk)
And Elite Encounters (one I made up myself)

If you're looking for something about as close to WH40K as you can get on a computer, I can highly recommend Incubation. Awesome game, very atmospheric and nicely done.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[Oathbreaker]

Still waiting for the turn-based 3D computer version of WH or WH40K to show up.

Not 3d, but Chaos Gate and Final Liberation. More 3d than those already mentioned: Space Hulk and Space Hulk 2.

I loved Chaos Gate so much I wrote a big FAQ on it. http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/199265-warha ... faqs/15687

I'd kill to see a Chaos Gate or Space Hulk playable on my Mac without too many hoops to jump through like Wine etc. I'm a bit non-techy in that regard.

[Matti]

I'd kill to see a Chaos Gate or Space Hulk playable on my Mac without too many hoops to jump through like Wine etc. I'm a bit non-techy in that regard.

Just buy used but working PC which has appropriate operating system. One can be get under 100 € (or equivalent in $ and £). Just make sure PC comes with right operating system: I tried Chaos Gate demo with Windows XP and I couldn't get it working. Some other games are bitch too... Maybe I should dig out my first Personal Computer from 1997 (last major upgrade in 2000) with Windows 95 and dust it up

[DaddyHoggy]

I'd kill to see a Chaos Gate or Space Hulk playable on my Mac without too many hoops to jump through like Wine etc. I'm a bit non-techy in that regard.

Just buy used but working PC which has appropriate operating system. One can be get under 100 € (or equivalent in $ and £). Just make sure PC comes with right operating system: I tried Chaos Gate demo with Windows XP and I couldn't get it working. Some other games are bitch too... Maybe I should dig out my first Personal Computer from 1997 (last major upgrade in 2000) with Windows 95 and dust it up

I've still got an old P133 laptop with Win 95 for a few games that just don't seem to work on anything else...

[Selezen]

VirtualPC and a copy of Win95 does it for me.

[Makandal]

I am playing People Tactics: http://www.advancedtactics.org/
I don't like too much the ideology under the game, the interface is not that good but the management of logistics lines is excellent. There are tons of scenario available also.
EDIT: I forgot also the battle for Wesnoth. Not bad at all but not as powerful as PT. http://www.wesnoth.org/

[Matti]

All right, let's cut off talk about computer/video games. Analogical wargames only... Ok, let's allow some leeway for those video games that are based on analogical ones, but NOT much.

And back to topic. What makes BattleTech great are flexibility and great variety of optional rules. There are at least two up-to-date campaign systems of different complexities and more are coming. There are tons of books that have statistics for units in the game, and those units can be customized and players can make totally new units from scratch.

Let's say I have mercenary force that have Overlord-class DropShip (heavy end VTOL capable military spacecraft for moving combat equipment and personnel). Default model has capacity only for BattleMechs (mecha) and AeroSpace fighters (equivalents of Sidewinder and Viper with atmosphere operation capability) and nothing else. But my mercenaries have lots of tanks and infantry too but 0 fighters. Solution: replace fighter and excess 'Mech bays with infantry and vehicle bays. And with unit design program (HeavyMetal Aero) end result looks this:

Code: Select all

                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Overlord (Obsolete Version) Renegade Legion
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 2762
Vessel Type:       Spheroid DropShip
Rules:             Level 1, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              9 700 tons
Length:            99 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       3
Maximum Thrust:    5
Armor Type:        Standard
Armament:          
    6 PPC
    2 Autocannon/20
    6 Autocannon/5
   12 Medium Laser
    3 LRM 20
    6 Large Laser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Overlord (Obsolete Version) Renegade Legion
Mass:              9 700 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass  
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                        1 891,50
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 3
      Maximum Thrust: 5
Structural Integrity: 18                                               349,50
Total Heat Sinks:    120 Single                                          7,00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                     313,00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                 73,00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   ,00
Armor Type:  Standard  (790 total armor pts)                            45,00
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                220
   Left/Right Sides:                 210/210
   Aft:                                 150

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Light Vehicle Company (12) with 1 door                      600,00
           Light Vehicle Company (12)                                  600,00
           Heavy Vehicle Company (12) with 1 door                    1 200,00
           BattleMechs (12) with 1 door                              1 800,00
           Infantry (foot) Platoons (23)                               115,00
   Bay 2:  Support Equipment (1)                                     1 611,00
           Infantry (foot) Platoons (10)                                50,00

Life Boats:  3 (7 tons each)                                            21,00
Escape Pods:  3 (7 tons each)                                           21,00

Crew and Passengers:
      8 Officers (7 minimum)                                            80,00
     29 Crew (0 minimum)                                               203,00
      6 Gunners (6 minimum)                                             42,00
    948 Bay Personnel                                                     ,00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 PPC                      Nose     2(20)  2(20)     --     --   20     14,00
2 Autocannon/20(30 rounds) Nose     5(50)  1(10)     --     --   14     34,00
  2 Autocannon/5(40 rounds)                                       2     18,00
2 Medium Laser             Nose     1(10)     --     --     --    6      2,00
1 PPC                      FL/R     1(10)  1(10)     --     --   20     14,00
1 Autocannon/5(40 rounds)  FL/R      1(5)   1(5)     --     --    2     20,00
1 LRM 20(30 rounds)        FL/R     1(12)  1(12)  1(12)     --   12     30,00
1 Large Laser              FL/R     2(18)   1(8)     --     --   16     10,00
  2 Medium Laser                                                 12      4,00
1 PPC                      AL/R     1(10)  1(10)     --     --   20     14,00
1 Large Laser              AL/R     2(18)   1(8)     --     --   16     10,00
  2 Medium Laser                                                 12      4,00
2 Autocannon/5(80 rounds)  Aft      1(10)  1(10)     --     --    2     20,00
1 LRM 20(36 rounds)        Aft      1(12)  1(12)  1(12)     --    6     16,00
2 Large Laser              Aft      3(26)  2(16)     --     --   16     10,00
  2 Medium Laser                                                  6      2,00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                              Heat: 182       9 244,00
Tons Left:                                                             456,00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        441 627 872 C-Bills
Battle Value:      4 164
Cost per BV:       106 058,57
Weapon Value:      6 960 (Ratio = 1,67)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 166;  MRV = 83;  LRV = 7;  ERV = 0
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 100 124
                   (37 525 Structure, 59 008 Life Support, 3 591 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 50 980  (51% of MPV)

I translate the statistics. 'Mech bay weighs 150 tons and can hold 'Mech up to 100 tons. 100 tons of the bay is reserved for 'Mech and remaining 50 tons for work equipment and crew accommodations, namely MechWarrior ('Mech's operator) and technician. 12 'Mech bays weigh 1800 tons. Light vehicle bay weighs 50 tons and can hold vehicle up to 50 tons. 12 light vehicle bays weigh 600 tons. Heavy vehicle bay weighs 100 tons and can hold vehicle up to 100 tons. 12 heavy vehicle bays weigh 1200 tons.

Do you see problem there? 'Mech bays take into account accommodations of their crew and tools needed to maintain and repair the unit. Vehicle bays don't. We can assume that not every vehicle in the 'Ship weigh up to the maximum allotted tonnage and therefore leave sufficient leftover mass for crew accommodations and tools, but... So I decided to lump vehicle crews and techs to infantry bays (5 ton for 28 troops without air/water recycling equipment). And that solves another problem: maximizing capacity of 'Mech/vehicle bays as storages for supplies. Which means lumping all the spare parts and ammo on top and under of the vehicles in their bays along with food, air and water bottles up to bay's allotted tonnage. So light vehicle bay with 30 ton Packrat Long-Range Patrol Vehicle on it will have 20 tons worth of the parts and supplies. Of course such crowded bay is likely to make maintenance and repairs more difficult or impossible, but if it is all just personnel consumables (food, water, air, all spent at 50 kg/day/person), those should have been consumed by the time vehicle is readied for combat deployment. That way all 948 soldiers, officers and techs (not counting DropShip's crew) can live almost 33 days with supplies from vehicle/'Mech bays.

1611 tons of support equipment are lumped together as cargo without any chance for maintenance/repairs. Those include various trucks, jeeps, recovery vehicles, APCs for soldiers and techs alike, and two IndustrialMechs (work mecha) for handling cargo and helping with field repairs (other is equipped with Salvage Arm). Actually this is more fitting for transportation deployment for secured landing zone than for combat drop under fire. For landing to hostile territory it is best to move most of the non-combat personnel to another DropShip along with most of the ammo and logistical assets. But becouse my mercenaries don't have that other DropShip, it needs to be supplied by employer along with much larger JumpShip (DropShips alone can't move between stars). Or leave much of the non-combat stuff behind to staging area when contract is some objective raid with no more than week on the target world (and month or two for there and back).

Tons Left: 456,00 means that amount of tonnage isn't specified for any equipment or bay. By the rules it should be called Cargo Bay, but I left it as is for convenience for any other possible modifications. Note that whole 'Ship weighs 9700 tons (fully loaded) and without equipment of unit bays could have transportation capacity up to 6432 tons! So if you thought that 750 tons of Anaconda is much...

Now I just sit and wait for release of final rulebook, Interstellar Operations, which will include rules for long term operations of military and mercenary forces... Actually I still have half of A Time of War (RPG rulebook) to be read...