Oolite Bulletins

Cheers DaddyHoggy, i knew the whole Sung thing got hopelessy convoluted. I coulda sworn there was one thing where someone did a whole bunch of textures and the implication was he was expecting to make some kinda income from them, but i may be thinking about a completely different threa altogether.

as i said, if we're all going to put licences in etc then i'll do that in order not to rock boats or create future probs. i just find it a little sad that it's come to this, that we've ended up w/ a 60-page discussion on legalities rather than the game and how to improve it

Killer Wolf wrote:

"It is amoral to not properly license These unlicensed oxp's need to properly highlighted with a toxic label on the wiki. "

well that's your opinion. i have refused to put licences in any of my OXPs. i come here and make stuff for the fun of it, and to share it around. the licences are a (to me) obnoxious element that only seemed to raise its head when lestradae started trying to justify his OXP. as has been stated multiple times, this always seems to have been a respect issue, not a legal one. i put my ships and station up there for peope to use, play w/ and (i hope) appreciate. if they want to incorporate them into their own work, they can. i would assume if anyone wanted to, they would have the courtesy to ask first, as Drew did. if someone wants to incorporate them and go changing their specs and/or stats w/out asking, as Real Shipyards did, well that's up to them. I ain't happy about it, but neither am i going to get het up about it because the Oolite i run here has my own OXPs on so i'm unnaffected.

i wouldn't dream of going an messing w/ another OXP especially when it's been made abundantly clear the creator was against it. i think this whole debacle could've been avoided w/ some simple courtesy and respect rather than 50 page dabates, strops and legal BS.

i mean, jesus - we all share and learn from each other don't we? there's absolutely nothing more simple to this whole thing that ASKING to borrow/incorrporate/adapt someone else's work. that's all, just ASK. if they say no, for whatever reason, just suck it up and deal w/ it.

Its not an opinion; Its fact. Its a little sick to refer to terms like respect when, you haven't clearly licensed your content.

Do not give me nonsense that not having a license is about sharing if what replaces a real license is terms you pull from your arse will and impose through vilification under the banner of respect.

Killer Wolf wrote:

i just find it a little sad that it's come to this, that we've ended up w/ a 60-page discussion on legalities rather than the game and how to improve it

I would like to point you and others to the simple fact that the first 50 pages of this thread have been the "OSE/OE development thread" where actual, creative work and discussion on the meta-oxp took place. Convince yourself by having a look.

Debates about how-to deal with copyright, licenses and social implications of them started around page 51. And I also want to point you to the fact that the problem is not me and also not someone else but that this is an issue that has to be resolved in/for a public non-commercial game development community, if you or I or someone else likes that or not.

And the award for most constructive posts goes to.. TUPE666!



FWIW I agree with everyone except tupe666. Giles' post has cleared up pretty much the whole business regarding licensing and has made it clear that it is expected that the wishes of OXP owners be respected if no clear licensing terms have been specified.

And tupe, a community has to have some degree of respect in order to operate. If we don't respect each other then every topic would just degenerate into the type of troll-based slanging match that you seem to be trying to initiate. You would seem to be in the minority. Sorry.

I think that there are a few subjective opinions that are trying to overrule the majority on the boards who are trying to end this and let us move on from this debate. OSE is a fantastic concept. So was RS. That's not under dispute. Lestradae should be proud of what he has achieved with them but should move on from the meta-OXP concept and just implement the concepts outlined without rolling in everyone else's OXPs UNLESS THEY SAY IT'S OK. Then there will be no problem. I personally look forward to commanding a fleet or a station. That would be cool.

I don't wanna start (or continue) a fight. I just want to play the game and download some cool OXPs. I no longer have the motivation to design OXPs due to all this carry on, to be honest. If some members of this community feel that anything written for Oolite is their own personal property and that they have the right to take it and muck about with it, then they really need to wake up, smell the roses, read what the opinions of others are for a change and (most importantly) read Giles' post carefully.

tupe666 wrote:

Killer Wolf wrote:

"It is amoral to not properly license These unlicensed oxp's need to properly highlighted with a toxic label on the wiki. "

well that's your opinion. i have refused to put licences in any of my OXPs. i come here and make stuff for the fun of it, and to share it around. the licences are a (to me) obnoxious element that only seemed to raise its head when lestradae started trying to justify his OXP. as has been stated multiple times, this always seems to have been a respect issue, not a legal one. i put my ships and station up there for peope to use, play w/ and (i hope) appreciate. if they want to incorporate them into their own work, they can. i would assume if anyone wanted to, they would have the courtesy to ask first, as Drew did. if someone wants to incorporate them and go changing their specs and/or stats w/out asking, as Real Shipyards did, well that's up to them. I ain't happy about it, but neither am i going to get het up about it because the Oolite i run here has my own OXPs on so i'm unnaffected.

i wouldn't dream of going an messing w/ another OXP especially when it's been made abundantly clear the creator was against it. i think this whole debacle could've been avoided w/ some simple courtesy and respect rather than 50 page dabates, strops and legal BS.

i mean, jesus - we all share and learn from each other don't we? there's absolutely nothing more simple to this whole thing that ASKING to borrow/incorrporate/adapt someone else's work. that's all, just ASK. if they say no, for whatever reason, just suck it up and deal w/ it.

Its not an opinion; Its fact. Its a little sick to refer to terms like respect when, you haven't clearly licensed your content.

Do not give me nonsense that not having a license is about sharing if what replaces a real license is terms you pull from your arse will and impose through vilification under the banner of respect.

wow, you really do help a forum don't you?
i'd ask you to explain how giving stuff freely, not bound by a licence, is sick, but i'm not even remotely intereted in your answer.

tupe666 wrote:

Its not an opinion; Its fact. Its a little sick to refer to terms like respect when, you haven't clearly licensed your content.

No, it is not sick.

Do not give me nonsense that not having a license is about sharing if what replaces a real license is terms you pull from your arse will and impose through vilification under the banner of respect.

tupe666: May I humbly suggest that you calm down a bit? You are not helping the discussion with these tones. Next time you post something like this, it will be deleted without further warning.

Killer Wolf wrote:

wow, you really do help a forum don't you?
i'd ask you to explain how giving stuff freely, not bound by a licence, is sick, but i'm not even remotely intereted in your answer.

You must be using some definition of free I don't understand. How can something be free if when someone uses the content they are attacked.

What is sick is this is acceptable behaviour. I use the term amoral and that is absolutely what it is.

What really sad about your comment is the lie that not licensing software makes it free. The fact that there is 56 page discussion involving the author of works taking down content smacks of the reverse.

I am also somewhat disgusted at the misuse of terms like respect and free

@another_commander I'm not diplomatic, when terms like respect are used to attack others and free is used to describe highly restrictive. I object strongly. I used the word sick and I meant the word sick. This topic is seriously long and I have only wrote a few comments. That shows there is something seriously wrong. The final comment is *NOTHING CHANGES* this comment will continue to grow and this topic will repeat its indefinably. Delete my comments. I withdraw myself from this thread I'd rather just play a fun game.

BTW the quote you chose having read it back is absolutely on the money

Bretheren, let us pray;

We beseech thee! Oh grand, glorious (and ever so slighty camp) diamonte studded padlock of righousness. Visit the poor souls of this diatribe, deliver us from light trolling, snipes and cowardly jibes. Take this sickly thread and ease it's suffering. We entrust it's soul to your tender care to sink peacefully to your relm of bound topics beneath the curning waves of postings new.

Guard it from the necroposters and all those that might use it's contents to foster trolls, snipes and jibes anew.

We ask this in MOD's name.
Amen.

Please no one lock the thread - that would suppress opinions and thereby people. It would be a deeply disrespectful act in itself.

My stance/side on everything since aegidian's legal advice:

* Aegidian's analysis of the legal and therefore actually also "moral" questions is final for me. He has had to look into these issues deeply for Oolite to become and stay a possibility and that is why I believe that what he wrote is factually the case. Therefore, no further debate on licenses / legalities is needed as far as myself or OE are concerned.

* Killer Wolf's suggestion to now ask the people who did not explicitly put a CC-3 license into their oxps or gave me permission or even asked for inclusion into OSE/OE in the past (there were quite some) is one possible way forwards. Before I do that, I will weigh alternatives to that (more below) and also leave a breather for the people involved in the debate to cool down and perhaps also reflect on what this is about before I ask / continue anything.

* As I was thinking a lot about all these issues, actually the ideas of ClymAngus, Ifnfan and some others concerning an automatically version-upgrading checkboxed oxp-library would be an even better idea than the aall-of-it bundle idea. It would be more flexible, original oxp creators would have full control over their stuff and I would not have to follow updates by hand. OE's unique and meta- attributes could then be re-done / taken out of the bundle as a separate oxp and there could be an "Aaaall-of-it" / "Oolite Extended" option in the library, which means everything gets downloaded/updated at once. So perhaps I would support to do this instead of my original idea if this newer idea should have the potential to make everyone happy.

* While I do not endorse tupe666's tone, it is a mirror into the opposite direction of how quite some people behaved or tried to behave towards me in that debate. And, some of what he said is factually correct or at least logically impeccable (such as claiming that rules "felt" to be morally superior are enforced onto the morally inferiors etc. etc.). It might be uncomfortable, but this community should say goodbye to the status quo (no, not your book, Drew!). It's not going to come back. This debate shows the growth pains of the community. And growth is good.

* Concerning finishing the debate, I have the following suggestion to make to the admins/mods: Perhaps you can cut out the licensing/morals debate and merge it with the "Licensing OXPs" sticky thread, and give me my first 50 pages of OE development thread back as a forum to discuss the future of Oolite Extended? I assume everyone should be able to live with that.

L

Lestradae wrote:

It might be uncomfortable, but this community should say goodbye to the status quo (no, not your book, Drew!).

Forget 'Status Quo', embrace 'Mutabilis'... or think up a new word

Perhaps my next story will be called 'Praelium' ?

Cheers,

Drew.

From 'Status Quo' to 'Mutabilis' - how very fitting.

Oolite - Reborn!

Lestradae,

If you want to have a serious debate about the future of OSE, I for one would find it helpful to have this starting with a clear statement from you about where you are now, and where you would like to be.

What options are there as of today? What would you like to do? What do you see as the main obstacles to those ideas? What questions do you want to ask the comoonity?

I dont care so much which thread its in, but I find this whole mishmash of different issues, some of which are resolved, and some arent really hard to follow. We have had this thread saying its cancelled, uncancelled and so on several times. We have discussed licensing, legalities, moralities, and even thread length is now a page or two.

Let start afresh, and stay on topic. Its not about censoring, or silencing, its about clarity.

I've just put a mega-post in discussion, with one - possibly controversial / hopefully not too controversial - idea about OE's future. Let me know what you guys think.

So as not to have three different threads over which the discussion not about licenses (!) (that one is over) but about the possible future(s) of Oolite Extended is scattered I have "moved" into Kaks' new thread in the Discussions forum.

I suggest to continue this new debate over there for the sake of clarity.

L

PS: @Cmdr James: Over there, first Kaks and then myself go into exactly the questions that you have raised in your last posting - there's a suggestion from Kaks, and an answer from me to that and another suggestion from ClymAngus, concerning the same aim: Keeping the OE project alive under the changed circumstances.

Any people who might be interested in getting involved with the forking Oolite is going to undergo and would like to contribute something - coding skills (oxps and dev - C#, C++ - alike Objective-C), a pet idea that never made it into Oolite, or just wanting to playtest the future Oolite Extended game test build, please write a PM to me so that we can discuss your ideas/contributions/wishes further.

Most wanted:

* Further people experienced with Oolite's internal coding
* People capable of coding in C# and C++ Objective-C
* Cool ideas for storylines
* Oxp'ers who would explicitly like to see their stuff in OE- the game, too, or who want to realise an oxp idea that somehow doesn't fit into Oolite as it is

Greetings,

L

PS: The Oolite Extended Ooniverse might - to not make this simply an "alternate" Oolite and even keep the two versions compatible a bit, and also explain the differences - get positioned about 400 years into Oolite's future.