Oolite Bulletins

New version is in the manager.

The oxp name is now Diplomancy in the manifest used by the manager, thanks to Cholmondely and the good vibe it generated on the thread

I won't change it in the hidden parts (the code), as it would probably be too invasive, but I'll change it where it's visible.

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:43 pm

Logo idea added to the backlog, thank both of you

There are another 3 versions on the second page of the GalCop logo thread, so you now have a choice!! Another by Montana 05, and one each by Nite Owl and cbr.

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:43 pm

Hmm, for those versed in Oolite lore, is it consistent that a galaxies-wide passport system used only by dictator, communist and corporate systems would be implemented by Galcop?

There are the orbital stations - and then there is the planet itself. The systems themselves will decide for the planet itself. For the stations, the accepted view seems to be that they are run by a combination of GalCop and the local system (the local system pays more for more elaborate stations such as a Dodecahedron or a Torus). So I can understand Embassy districts on the Orbitals. And even on dockable liners in the solar system. I don't understand them on Rock Hermits! Or dredgers! Or Strangers World's orbiting lunar laboratories!

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:43 pm

Concerning the Wars and alliances maps, you need the ADVANCED_NAVIGATIONAL_ARRAY equipment to display them. I updated the readme.txt to include this bit of info (in the next version).
The related line in the F4 interface is "Star wars" (yes, I dared).

Thank you for that little morsel of information! And if you want to call it Star wars .... !

Again, thank you for this.

I can feel a wish for minor tweaking:
*(visas for every single corporate in The Eight? And for no feudals or democracies at all? Really?
IF it is part of the definition: "feudals are just dictatorships which don't need a visa", "dictatorships are just feudals which do" ... then maybe!)

*(is there really no ability to see visas while in flight?)


But it very definitely adds to my game.

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:54 pm

The oxp name is now Diplomancy in the manifest used by the manager...

<applauds>

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:07 pm

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:43 pm

Logo idea added to the backlog, thank both of you

There are another 3 versions on the second page of the GalCop logo thread, so you now have a choice!! Another by Montana 05, and one each by Nite Owl and cbr.

Ok, I'll look when I'll work on it

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:07 pm

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:43 pm

Hmm, for those versed in Oolite lore, is it consistent that a galaxies-wide passport system used only by dictator, communist and corporate systems would be implemented by Galcop?

There are the orbital stations - and then there is the planet itself. The systems themselves will decide for the planet itself. For the stations, the accepted view seems to be that they are run by a combination of GalCop and the local system (the local system pays more for more elaborate stations such as a Dodecahedron or a Torus). So I can understand Embassy districts on the Orbitals. And even on dockable liners in the solar system. I don't understand them on Rock Hermits! Or dredgers! Or Strangers World's orbiting lunar laboratories!

Ah. Yes. Currently embassies are on every station not in anarchy system.
I'm considering putting them only on main stations of galcop allegiance.
a) would it break the way you play, Cholmondely?
b) what do you all think, gameplay-wise and lore-wise?

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:07 pm

I can feel a wish for minor tweaking:
*(visas for every single corporate in The Eight? And for no feudals or democracies at all? Really?
IF it is part of the definition: "feudals are just dictatorships which don't need a visa", "dictatorships are just feudals which do" ... then maybe!)

So, it has come to this. (Best multi purpose ominous statement ever.)
You're right. Originally, I just wanted something credible which could be coded quickly, and could be improved depending on the wish of players.
Players' wish is explicited.

Hmmm, Corporate is explainable easily enough: they're built around value, which needs security, and captains are security threats. Cataloguing and securizing their moves in the system is a no-brainer requisite.
Dictatorships and communist system have exactly the same need.

All of them? Well yes, the means are easy to implement and deploy; even the smallest systems would be interested in deploying a visa system, especially if it allows them to get free credits.

Now who wouldn't implement a paying visa system? Free-trade zones.
So most multi-government systems, all anarchies.
Feodals could do as they wish.

I could do a procedurally-defined attribution for let's say multi-government systems and feodal systems, something like 20% of them have embassies.
What do you all think?

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:07 pm

*(is there really no ability to see visas while in flight?)

I didn't see the need, but really you should be able to see them in-flight.
I could implement this easily enough.

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm

Ah. Yes. Currently embassies are on every station not in anarchy system.
I'm considering putting them only on main stations of galcop allegiance.
a) would it break the way you play, Cholmondely?
b) what do you all think, gameplay-wise and lore-wise?

Your suggestion makes much more sense to me. It's kind of you to consider the way I play - but don't forget that I'm very much a neophyte in these matters (Having said that, thank you, it would not break the way I play).

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:07 pm

*(visas for every single corporate in The Eight? And for no feudals or democracies at all? Really?
IF it is part of the definition: "feudals are just dictatorships which don't need a visa", "dictatorships are just feudals which do" ... then maybe!)

So, it has come to this. (Best multi purpose ominous statement ever.)
You're right. Originally, I just wanted something credible which could be coded quickly, and could be improved depending on the wish of players.
Players' wish is explicited.

Hmmm, Corporate is explainable easily enough: they're built around value, which needs security, and captains are security threats. Cataloguing and securizing their moves in the system is a no-brainer requisite.
Dictatorships and communist system have exactly the same need.

Is this really so? Surely any visiting pilot is logged into the system, visa or no visa, passport or no passport. It's all electronic and presumably a bit like the Peoples' Republic of Utopian China will be in a few more years. Spy cameras, facial recognition etc.

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm

All of them? Well yes, the means are easy to implement and deploy; even the smallest systems would be interested in deploying a visa system, especially if it allows them to get free credits.

Now who wouldn't implement a paying visa system? Free-trade zones.
So most multi-government systems, all anarchies.
Feudals could do as they wish.

I could do a procedurally-defined attribution for let's say multi-government systems and feudal systems, something like 20% of them have embassies.
What do you all think?

I think that all would have an embassy sector in their GalCop managed main orbital station - maybe even a proportion of the anarchies (the term is of course quite a loose definition covering a multitude of anarchic possibilities)

•see
(1) the old Elite Flight Manual pp48-9 http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/The_Sp ... ing_Manual
(2) then Carver's Anarchy by Ganelon https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8641 (the middle sections parts 4-5 & 7 describing the country of Rahooran on the anarchic planet of Lasoce in the 2nd Galaxy.
(3) this excerpt from Cim's Ship's Manual (in his Ship's Library.oxp):
Anarchies
An Anarchy system is defined as “a system where no diplomatic relations may be established”, generally due to a complete lack of recognisable government. Again, therefore, formal agreement to the Cooperative treaties is generally missing, though in practice there is often at least a vague acceptance of them by individuals.

Laxeti in Chart 6 is one typical example, where all larger governments have broken down, there is no planetary authority larger than a city, and all attempts to establish diplomatic communications with the Cooperative have failed, even on a multi-government model. Visitors to the planet must arrange their visits separately to each region, and similarly traders wishing to ship goods to the surface must barter carefully in the absence of any currency with worth outside the few hundred square kilometres it originates in.

Maesin in Chart 1 is very different, but the result in space is the same. The original colonists were refugees from a harsh dictatorial system, and came to Maesin with the aim of having no hierarchies, no formal power structures, and no leaders, so that no-one could seize power in the same way. With persistent effort, they have succeeded in doing this, and the planet remains a peaceful voluntary collective of subsistence farmers to this day. Unfortunately, as a consequence, there is absolutely no authority which the Cooperative can deal with, and so the space above the planet is a haven for pirates and other criminals.

Isquinza in Chart 4 is a highly unusual Anarchy. The planetary government is a well-organised corporate dictatorship, well known for the manufacture of Zero-G Hockey sticks and other sporting goods. However, they are also extremely isolationist. Trade is carried out by a few trusted intermediaries, and direct communication between the surface and space is completely outlawed. Most of the facts about the government are only known through extremely careful anthropological research, as it refuses outright to talk to the Cooperative or visitors at all, and only allows the trusted intermediaries to land.

In many of these cases it is presumably GalCop which pays for the orbital station and the insufficient police force (probably only enough to protect the station itself). This all must be paid for through the levies on the trade going through the station. A little income from an embassy sector would be of use to GalCop - the embassies have to pay GalCop for upkeep of the visa-issuing computers, rental of space etc. No?

But whether the anarchies would themselves have embassies elsewhere? Apart from a very, very small proportion ... No!

Having said all this, it would be useful to have the considered opinion of some more people!

Other issues:

The System History screen:
On day 2084025 Anarlaqu declared war on Sotiqu, Vetitice & Inonri. Four days later they made peace with Sotiqu.
Over the next 22 days they made peace with Sotiqu another 15 times! Nothing else happened!

Anarlaqu are feudal humans and Sotiqu are fierce anarchic batrachians. I suppose that it is possible that various of the Grand Dukes of Anarlaqu are making individual peace treaties with each individual anarchic batrachian on Sotiqu ... but is this what you expected?

And, again: there should be a possibility of extending ones' visa inside at least some of the visa-requiring systems - even if it does involve taking the shuttle down to the planet surface!

Sorry to be a pain!

I'm seeing this error in the log when after I open a saved game that has no Diplomacy data inside. Starting a new game doesn't generate the error.

phkb wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:23 am

I'm seeing this error in the log when after I open a saved game that has no Diplomacy data inside.

Code: Select all

04:16:21.382 [script.javaScript.exception.unexpectedType]: ***** JavaScript exception (DayDiplomacy_000_Engine 0.18): TypeError: observersId is undefined
04:16:21.382 [script.javaScript.exception.unexpectedType]:       ../AddOns/Testing.oxp/oolite.oxp.Day.Diplomacy.oxp/Scripts/DayDiplomacy_War.js, line 33.

Starting a new game doesn't generate the error.

Thank you phkb, this is indeed a bug. I'll chase it.

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm

So, it has come to this. (Best multi purpose ominous statement ever.)

Two points:
1) reminder is it possible to display days of unexpired visas in an MFD (or on F5/F5F5 page or on relevant F7 page) for easy reference in flight
2) It's taken me a week to realise that the F4 Star Wars screen toggles between 3 different maps (not 2): Wars, Diplomacy & Warring Systems.

If it was spelled out on the first line on the screen it might be much more obvious: Instead of just "Display Wars Map" or just "Display Diplomacy Map" or just "Display Warring Systems Map" one could have "Toggle Warring Systems/Wars/Diplomacy Maps" then "Toggle Wars/Diplomacy/Warring Systems Maps" and finally "Toggle Diplomacy/Warring Systems/Wars Maps". Or some such!

I do not understand the lines and colours on the screens. What they actually refer to (war with each other? war with the system I am currently in? War with the system I am going to? etc). Would there be any chance of your writing a short commentary on the 3 screens now up on your OXP page explaining exactly what is going on between say 3 of the systems on each screen?



Still an excellent OXP! Thank you.

Just been reading the old 2007 thread on the Galactic Navy - and the debates between Cdr McLane, Disembodied, Captain Hesperus et. al. about how dominant GalCop and the Galactic Navy are. It's interesting how the understanding of the Ooniverse has changed over the years (partially due to the loss of the Frontiersmen to E:D).

Oh! And the screen shots are finally up on your wiki page.

Edited for improved clarity

Question: what are the advantages of citizenship?

If all it means is that I have to pay income tax once a year (and get clobbered by the Inonrians when they declare war on poor old Digebiti) ...

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm

So, it has come to this. (Best multi-purpose ominous statement ever.)

Spoiler for LongWay mission below: avert eyeballs NOW!

I hope that you and yours are surviving the plague.

I'd rather like to try tweaking the LongWay Round (LongWay OXP) mission to take advantage of some of your Diplomancy capability.

The mission is about bringing back the anonymous deposed king to a system in civil war.

1) How do I start off with say the commies vs the feudals & corporates: both groups fighting over Qubeen and supporting different sides in the civil war?

ie: (Soorbi & Onlema) vs (Araesso & Raleen) - and then both alliances at war with Qubeen (so to speak!). This would be from loading LongWay into the system.

2) And then, say 5 planet hops after depositing the deposed back to Qubeen, how do I have Araesso & Raleen make peace with Qubeen? And then, say, another 5 turns later, have Araesso & Raleen also make peace with Qubeen?

I presume it is a matter of including code in the LongWay.oxp - I did read through your OXP files, but I do not understand enough code to decipher it all!

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm

So, it has come to this. (Best multi-purpose ominous statement ever.)

More musings...

Extending my visa...

*I don't think Rock Hermits should have embassies. It does not make much sense to me. Liners should. Some anarchies might - the orbital station is run by GalCop and they probably need every penny that they can get since the anarchies don't contribute. Visas bought there might be rather more expensive as a result...

*I do think that I should be able to extend my visa in-system without having to leave it.
- I can see an argument that the Corporate States would make it considerably more expensive to renew in-system than out (captive market...).
- I can also see an argument that the Communists and the Dictatorships may well refuse to extend the visa unless I am a citizen of another communist regime or an equivalent dictatorship (agricultural junta or Imperial industrial or whatever theological version Montana05 ends up creating). Or I can bribe the official. As a dodgy outsider (a trader... gasp!) who is not spending a lot of money, the regime might well want me out!

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:43 pm

Day wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm

So, it has come to this. (Best multi-purpose ominous statement ever.)

More musings...

Extending my visa...

*I don't think Rock Hermits should have embassies. It does not make much sense to me. Liners should. Some anarchies might - the orbital station is run by GalCop and they probably need every penny that they can get since the anarchies don't contribute. Visas bought there might be rather more expensive as a result...

*I do think that I should be able to extend my visa in-system without having to leave it.
- I can see an argument that the Corporate States would make it considerably more expensive to renew in-system than out (captive market...).
- I can also see an argument that the Communists and the Dictatorships may well refuse to extend the visa unless I am a citizen of another communist regime or an equivalent dictatorship (agricultural junta or Imperial industrial or whatever theological version Montana05 ends up creating). Or I can bribe the official. As a dodgy outsider (a trader... gasp!) who is not spending a lot of money, the regime might well want me out!

Yet more musings!

Why do systems offer visas?
*Corporate States: primarily to make money - and possibly control who comes in (for financial reasons, presumably - keeping competition down)
*Communists & Dictatorships: to control who gets into the country politically.

If one arrives at any of the three without a visa and wishes to enter, one can well see that they would each require a visit down to the planet to organise such - (especially the communists/dictatorships who have political control on the ground which they lack on the orbital stations shared with GalCop in space, and can imprison such visitors if desired) and would charge through the nose for the privilege.

Why do anarchies not have embassies?
Presumably because they have no governments which other systems can represent themselves to. But these embassies are on orbital stations, not on the planet itself.
Excursus: Why have embassies on orbital stations? The ostensive reason would be to provide visa services to travellers who do not land on the planet. But there could well be other reasons. The involvement of GalCop with the funding of the orbitals provides a guarantee of security, neutrality and possibly of privacy which may well be lacking on the planet surface. After all the Galactic Police maintain fleets of vipers there, which would help guarantee the neutrality.
Return to theme of anarchic embassies So vestigial embassies may possibly provide support services to their citizens, but would need to be able to guarantee the safety of their staff. But the visa services on the orbitals would help provide much needed funds for GalCop helping defray the running expenses. I could easily see a fee of say 50₢ for using the orbital's visa services which goes straight into GalCop's coffers (assuming that the corporate/dictatorship/communist state) was on the fastest route or the only route from the anarchic orbital to the next region of the galaxy: In Galaxy 1: Zaleriza, Sotiqu, Maises, Xeesenri, Isveve & Eszaraxe are anarchies situated at such toll-gates.
But why would these orbitals charge for embassies/visas? Why not just charge massively for docking? Well, one can always seek another berth in an anarchy - a rock hermit for example. Admittedly, there is no aegis zone around these rock hermits (but there could be ... !). So it depends on the traveller. Assuming that such will be well armed or travelling in a convoy, the need for an aegis zone need not be essential. So a high toll at the orbital might well deflect most travel to the hermits or to the planet itself. The visa services are of course another matter. Here, GalCop has a monopoly. And who knows, maybe there would be sizeable docking fees too!

Now, one can well image that some enterprising individuals might start up a counterfeit visa business (at the seedier RH's & on the planet itself) - and that GalCop would then try to weed out the RHs and possibly even the planet-based enterprises ... these are in anarchies, remember!

Yet another idea!

Stumbled across this:

aegidian wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:31 pm

With starting conditions one approach might be to go back to Elite's origins in the Traveller TTRPG.

There one generated a character (through a series of die rolls) determining the character's immediate past and origins - Oolite's scripting system could do a similar job generating a random backstory for each new player character (could be pseudo-random based on the character's name and species, etc.) (oh yes, I for one would like to start as something other than human!)

That would allow for a variety of starting points, amounts of cash, equipment or cargo.

Where one character might start by inheriting a bare-bone Cobra 3 and 100 credits, another might be the recipient of a pile of gold, or have bid on an ex-pirate's craft (complete with 'some' equipment) at a Gal-Cop auction. It wouldn't take much to produce a screen full of backstory and a nice variety of random (but balanced and openly extendable) starting scenarios.

One could also choose. With Diplomancy.oxp allowing one to be a subject/citizen of a solar system, and also providing a background in terms of wars/alliances, this oxp would start allowing such a back-story to be built up.

phkb wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:23 am

Diplomacy data

I notice that you uploaded a new version of Diplomancy to the wiki on Saturday 2nd of March.



Any chance of explaining how it differs from the previous? I had a look at Hiran's OoliteProject but could see no indicators on a cursory glance.



I'm afraid that I never told you that I eventually reverted to Day's buggy original. I prefer the dynamism of wars and peace continually breaking out, even if the history screen ends up being nonsensical!