Oolite Bulletins

Today is a good day to update.

In Multiple Lasers v1.5:
-Caduceus Alpha aft view position fixed.
-Caduceus Omega aft spaces are increased to 50m in 3D for separated Eco Artillery.
-DTT Heart of Gold side spaces are increased to 50m in 3D for separated Eco Reactor.
-Central lasers ordered first in weapon_position arrays.

After this request in Multiple Lasers v1.6 [wiki]Star Destroyer[/wiki] got 5 times stronger mounts in all four sides. The 5 lasers fire very near each other so draw a thick beam, moreover all is separated using 100m shift. The forward and aft mounts can hold 5-5 separated  Heavy Sniper Guns which is the most powerful configuration.

Thank you so much my friend!
Vielen Dank!

In v1.7:
[wiki]Cobra Mark III-XT[/wiki] got 3 forward non-separable lasers.
[wiki]Condor[/wiki] has 4 forward and 4 aft separated lasers, all in central position.

I tried this oxp together with separated lasers OXP but I had a problem, in the shipyard there were 'pulse laser', 'triple pulse laser', 'beam laser', 'triple beam laser', etc, that is for each weapon there was a triple version, that costed only a little more. But when I mounted the normal versions, they were triple lasers as well. Isn't it possible to buy only one or two lasers instead of three? If not, which is the difference between normal and triple version? Thanks

Ross154 wrote:

Isn't it possible to buy only one or two lasers instead of three?

The core game restrict to use fix amount of lasers in a view on a ship, so you can not select to buy one or two only where three mounts are defined. Even if you buy a "single" laser, it will fire 3 beams but produce 3 times more heat.

Dual, Triple, Quad and Broadside (at least 5x) laser variants are defined by [wiki]Separated Lasers[/wiki], these fire exactly the same amount of beams as stock lasers but without producing multiple heat! These contain separated coolers so all beam cool down at the same time, without adding the heat together. The name mean the number of built-in coolers, "two separated pulse lasers with dual cooler" would be a more exact name than "dual pulse laser", just the last is shorter.

If the mount points in a view on your ship are enough far from each other to use separated variants (additional coolers need space on the outer hull) then you can only use these. Even if you buy a "single" laser, you will see an instant message about this is not the best and instantly replaced to the variant which fit to the maximal number of the mount points. There are technical hitches why I can not achieve to list only the best item, sorry.

For more details please read through the wiki pages of [wiki]Multiple Lasers[/wiki] and [wiki]Separated Lasers[/wiki].

Thanks for the explanation. Some limitations I see for now are:

- all ships have multiple lasers (more variation would be nice)
- multiple non-wide lasers mean more heat, but since it's possible to miss the target with side lasers, they are less energy efficient
- you can sell the pulse laser for 3x money and have an easy start with trading (pulse laser is rather useless anyway)
- so basically multiple non-wide lasers are almost a downgrade over single lasers, if you have a ship that doesn't support wide mounts, you're probably better off with single lasers. On the other hand, separated multiple lasers are overpowered in comparison.
- also, do NPC's lasers heat up like player's? If not, multiple lasers are a huge advantage for them and another reason to prefer single laser if you can't have separated mounts.

A couple of suggestion would be:

- is it possible to define variants for the same ship with different mount points (single/dual/etc) so that you could have the desired laser setup? For example, you start with a single laser, then you buy a double laser and your ship becomes the double laser variant (retaining all equipment, and without the need to buy another ship). You would also see ships with different number of lasers.

- instead of having different weapon variants, whether they're separated or not, have the heat build-up directly dependent on mount distance, so that there is a benefit in having multiple lasers after all, since you pay for them. If I'm not mistaken, wider mounts also mean less chance to hit with all lasers. So you would have that closer lasers heat up faster, but are more precise. If the heating is directly depending on the mount distance you would have a gradual transition instead of having a big leap in power for separated mounts. Then you wouldn't need different weapon variants, because additional heating rate would be defined by the mount distance and not by the weapon type.

Dual laser would then mean 2 lasers, not "2 separated lasers with dual cooler". If you have ship variants with multiple mounts, you could have for example a Cobra Mk.III with:

a) a single mount, low power/energy usage, low cost, low heat, or

b) 2 mounts, reasonably distant from each other, cost 3x to install, increased power/energy usage, slightly more heat; being mounts rather wide, precision would be a bit reduced, or yet

c) 3 mounts, not distant enough for good cooling, cost 5x to install, more power/energy usage, more heat; you would trade heat for power, and being tighter than b), also more precise than 2 wide mounts (but less than a single mount).

Ross154 wrote:

- all ships have multiple lasers (more variation would be nice)

Not in small ships like escorts. Imho unfair if a 200t ship only capable to hold the same forward weapon than a 15t one, so currently mass and cost are the main factors in the number of mounts.
Moreover many OXP ships which should have still missing multiple lasers due to my laziness, install some then you will have variation.

Ross154 wrote:

- multiple non-wide lasers mean more heat, but since it's possible to miss the target with side lasers, they are less energy efficient

Yes, the goal here is not to make extremely powerful weapons, nor that a triple mount must give exactly 3 times more efficiency. The attached drawbacks help to keep the game balanced so exists wilfully. For those who want better energy efficiency I recommend [wiki]Eco Lasers[/wiki].

Ross154 wrote:

- you can sell the pulse laser for 3x money and have an easy start

We discussed recently that this could be a good thing, for example to get Injectors sooner than a new player give up against pirates.

Ross154 wrote:

- so basically multiple non-wide lasers are almost a downgrade over single lasers

Maybe not much better, but still deliver more damage faster, just need longer time to cool down to zero before the next attack. Surely not a downgrade imho.

Ross154 wrote:

separated multiple lasers are overpowered in comparison.

You just now mentioned the probabolity to miss with the wide mounts and the big energy consumption, these make separated lasers less powerful than sounds first time. Another one is the needed large ship hull which is an easier target than small ships. Still more powerful, but on those ships where it is logical. Maybe I left out some ships or not well balanced so if you have idea which ship should be changed then tell me.

Ross154 wrote:

- also, do NPC's lasers heat up like player's?

Yes. The work here is if a ship oxp contain independent non-playable ship variants then must define multiple lasers for those also, else the player would be in unfair advantage.

Ross154 wrote:

- is it possible to define variants for the same ship with different mount points

Possible, just much more work what I do not want to do due to I think the deep space is a harsh place where all pilots should use the maximal firepower what a ship can offer. The steps in cost are larger between the core lasers but there are packages like [wiki]New lasers[/wiki] and [wiki]Laser Cannons[/wiki] which give more stairs.

Ross154 wrote:

have the heat build-up directly dependent on mount distance

This need changes in the core game in ObjC (heat value of a laser is fixed now) which is out of my scope and even if accepted by the dev team after a probably long disccussion, it will arrive into the stable release after about a year so I prefer only which is possible in addons using javascript functions. Although your idea is good, what I can do is already done: more powerful lasers need wider space to receive separation. I made levels at 30, 50 and 100m which are easy for ship designers imho. More levels is possible but just make more work without much additional benefit imho. Alternatively you can make it anytime if you want.

Ross154 wrote:

ship variants with multiple mounts

I think this need an other addon package, mine just add more lasers to the existing ships. Creating new ship subtypes need more thinking, at least balancing with different cost, but maybe on other parameters also like pitch, speed, etc. A challenge to do this even on the core ships only and almost endless on OXP ships, there are about 500 in my machine. If you like to start it then worth to open a different topic.

Ross154 wrote:

a) a single mount, low power/energy usage, low cost, low heat
b) 2 mounts, reasonably distant from each other...
c) 3 mounts, not distant enough for good cooling

I think a similar effect is achieveable using additional laser packages. A simple example if you use Pulse laser on a triple mount instead of Beam then you save about as much heat as you have a single Beam only.

Another way is to select a ship from the long list and setup for your needs. For example [wiki]Miner Cobra[/wiki] willfully missing multiple lasers for those who want a low-end variation of this classic ship with single laser only, in exchange for more cargo.

Ok thanks for the answers and sorry if my suggestions were over-stretched, I see it's a lot of work for little gain.

Norby wrote:

There are technical hitches why I can not achieve to list only the best item, sorry.

Then it's not possible to hide those "triple lasers" in the shipyard if your ship doesn't support separated mounts? Now I know what they mean but it's really confusing for one who doesn't know.

Ross154 wrote:

Then it's not possible to hide those "triple lasers" in the shipyard if your ship doesn't support separated mounts?

I mean the single one is never hidden. I try to hide the triple if it is not supported but maybe a bug is in your way. Which is your ship?

Norby wrote:

I mean the single one is never hidden. I try to hide the triple if it is not supported but maybe a bug is in your way. Which is your ship?

It's the standard Cobra MK.III. Not really asking for personal favors, do it only if it makes sense to you. To me, it makes more sense if wide mounts aren't shown in the shipyard if your ship doesn't support them, especially because the weapon names or descriptions aren't that obvious.

Norby wrote:

If the mount points in a view on your ship are enough far from each other to use separated variants (additional coolers need space on the outer hull) then you can only use these. Even if you buy a "single" laser, you will see an instant message about this is not the best and instantly replaced to the variant which fit to the maximal number of the mount points.

Maybe a similar message+weapon replacement is enough when you try to buy a separated mount that can't fit in your ship?

Ross154 wrote:

makes more sense if wide mounts aren't shown in the shipyard if your ship doesn't support them

Now I understood your request. This is possible and added in the new Separated Lasers v1.2, please update it. Thank you for the idea!

Norby wrote:

This is possible and added in the new Separated Lasers v1.2, please update it. Thank you for the idea!

Thanks a lot for the update

In v1.8 Imperial Courier got 3 separated and [wiki]Sniper Gun[/wiki] capable forward laser mounts after this request.

I think I've found a bug:
- Normal default start. When I fire my forward weapon, I see 3 pulse laser shots.
- sold the forward pulse laser for injectors (got me 1.2Kcr; I didn't pay attention to this at the time, so I've checked the refund is correct in an other test game - btw it gives a significant boost in the early game, since you have injectors and can fill your cargo bay and make 500+ cr trades right away),
- later bought various basic equipment (ECM, headlights, broadcomm MFD),
- later bought an aft pulse laser (I don't think this is related, this is just for completeness),

Then after a few milk runs I was able to buy a forward weapon again. I go for beam laser. I notice that it costs 3000 Cr. Since I only have 2K something, I fallback to pulse lasers. Price tag= 1200 Cr (3x400Cr).
To my surprise, after the deal I end with 4K credits (the almost exact figures are 2.3K -> 4.1K).
If I disable multiple lasers, it works as expected.