Oolite Bulletins

Commander McLane wrote:

An what would it do? Just being there, waiting to be visited (like the Tianve Pulsar)? Or indeed sucking everything in? And if so, how would it do that? Oolite is—like Elite—non-newtonian in some areas (or should I rather say, non-keplerian?): orbital movements don't exist; thus also a black hole would only generate a linear movement towards it (which is what the Cargo Shepherd which was mentioned as an example does).

As a suggestion, it could be fixed in space so no need for orbital movements. My lack of coding knowledge will tell now, but could it be possible to add more than one cargo shepherd around the black hole, giving the object a 360 degree arc of attraction?

As for what to do, perhaps it could have an accretion disk comprising of many asteroids rich in minerals or other goodies like derelicts or secret bases.

Commander McLane wrote:

Also, the comparison with Pioneer is of course a little lacking, because there is no such thing as a centre of the galaxy in Oolite (absence of orbital movements again).

True but you don't have to a have super massive black hole (like Agamemnon), but smaller in system ones where there might also be stars along with attendant asteroids.

As I said due to my lack coding knowledge I am only guessing Thats why I asked the question

Geraldine wrote:

perhaps it could have an accretion disk comprising of many asteroids rich in minerals or other goodies like derelicts or secret bases.

But if you go near that disk, how do you avoid becoming another part of it?

My personal copy of the Cargo Shepherd which has gravitational effect, applies to all objects in the system. Well, small stuff anyway. Not ships or stations.

SandJ wrote:

But if you go near that disk, how do you avoid becoming another part of it?

Thats a good question SandJ, perhaps having the asteroids fairly close to one another, meaning piloting abilities will be tested, but crucially the disk lies just beyond the shock front of the black hole. Fly too far from the asteroids toward it and its.................."Press Space Commander". Perhaps there could be more asteroids on the outside of the disk which would have normal resources but be more difficult to navigate with fewer more valuable goodies the further in you go? How close would you dare to go? Sort of like a game of chicken with the black hole Hyperdrives could be disabled once you enter the disk (due to the effects of the black hole) to raise the danger factor.

SandJ wrote:

My personal copy of the Cargo Shepherd which has gravitational effect, applies to all objects in the system. Well, small stuff anyway. Not ships or stations.

Mmmmm well that is a problem for sure. For it to work it must be able to effect ships or there wouldn't be a danger in flying too close to the shock zone, plus it should be concentrated/localised on just one point: the centre of the black hole.

Sorry if I asked a dumb question

Geraldine wrote:

Sorry if I asked a dumb question

There is no such thing as dumb questions.

You said "black holes". What is it you wanted? Is there some specific kind of interaction or game play effect you were seeking? There is probably some way of achieving it.

Black holes themselves are reasonably well understood, and are not pleasant places. Being caught in the gravity well of one = death and that's that. The best you can do is send a message to your loved ones, which they might not receive until some point after the human race has died out.

Gravity is proportional to the square of the distance between the objects effected. In a light space ship (relative to a black hole which is not going to be small) this means the effect will kick in proportional to the distance from the black hole. As soon as you enter the system it will pull you in a little bit. The nearer you get, the stronger the pull. It will make directing the ship very hard; you will not be able to keep target lock on a pirate, for example, unless it is between you and the black hole.

Systems containing space stations, planets and suns will be short-lived: all will get sucked in toward the disk of matter that orbits the black hole, and be torn to bits on the way.

In short - a black hole, as we now understand them - gives very little opportunity for game play fun.

But if you can think of something similar - a dense object that pulls stuff in and destroys it if not careful - then there is the opportunity for a game adventure.

What did you have in mind? (bearing in mind a black hole merely = "Ooh, that's interesting; oh shit.")

(A question shows a desire to learn, therefore no question can be dumb. Except "How can I be more like Jordan?")

One problem with a disk of asteroids is that it would need lots and lots of asteroids. However, there is a hard limit of 2047 entities in a system, and most computers would already come to a crawling halt with a couple of hundred entities (3-500). That's way not enough to create a believable asteroid disk.

Commander McLane wrote:

One problem with a disk of asteroids is that it would need lots and lots of asteroids. However, there is a hard limit of 2047 entities in a system, and most computers would already come to a crawling halt with a couple of hundred entities (3-500). That's way not enough to create a believable asteroid disk.

How about if it used the logic in Asteroids.OXP? That is, asteroids you can't see needn't exist - so they don't exist at all. Only permit asteroids within 30km of the user's ship and destroy any outside that.

But if you are (say) 120,000 to 100,000 metres from the black hole, and the density of asteroids and other detritus increases as you get to 100,000 metres, and the pull toward the black increases too, maybe we could do it. We'd probably need to ignore the need for time to go faster - but it could be done. Maybe you are warned not to get within 100km, and if you do so get a "Press Space, Commander" and let the player find out what their ship is capable of accelerating against?

Geraldine wrote:

I've been playing Oolite for a bit now, but have not come across any black holes. Is there any oxps available to add them?

How about this ...

On docking with 14 LY of the Whatever system:

Commander, great news for traders. A singularity has appeared in the nearby Whatever system. GalCop are bringing in a Neutronium-Schrödinger Missile to destroy it and are scheduling its destruction for 65 hours from now. This is a chance for all traders in decent ships to jump in there, suck up any cargo they can, and jump back out, before GalCop get rid of it. So long as you don't get pulled into the singularity for all time, ha, ha! The boffins reckon there will be all kinds of escape pods and asteroids and splinters and cargo circling its event horizon between 150km and 100km from the black hole. Any nearer than that, and nothing's coming back! Ever! Even then, at that range the black hole's gravity will be pulling you harder and harder - you'll need good engines and steering skill to keep out AND scoop at the same time.

It would need an object at a random position in the system that 'pulls' on ships and stuff in the system toward itself, ie, accelerates stuff toward itself every few seconds in inverse proportion to the square of the distance. The 'orbiting' asteroids etc would need some fiddly coding to remain around the player and nowhere else. Also, what to do about NPCs that get caught in the gravity well? I would suggest anything reaching 100km from the singularity simply blows up.

It is possible for stable orbits around a black hole as long as the object is far enough away, so stars could be there. If the "gravitational effect" could be made proportional depending on how close you were that could be very cool. Fuel Injectors would be needed to escape once inside the shock zone but even those wouldn't help if you got too close, hence the "chicken" idea.

And yes your spot on SandJ, it should have more to offer than just being a navigational hazard. There could be "something" or "somethings" there in the disk that is worth the extreme risk for the most bravest and skilled pilots. Basically going there will test a pilot to the limits of their skills and equipment (for example, shields start to erode, hull plating starts to be ripped off and random systems start to breakdown), even the ship itself, in that only the most manoeuvrable and fastest ships, could even attempt it.

Think of it as an extreme sports challenge!

Geraldine wrote:

Think of it as an extreme sports challenge!

Surfing the event horizon? I'd probably have to give that a go!

El Viejo wrote:

Surfing the event horizon? I'd probably have to give that a go!

As long as you don't end up like this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLQhKLPwUp4

mmm, Aristotelian Black Holes!

A while ago I've experimented with some ideas for space phenomenons, but trashed it, because a game would need a visual effect to make it plausible. Just pushing entities around was not my thing.

Well, black holes are theoretically linked to wormholes....i.e free inter-galactic travel

This would have to be at a serious risk though...I think black holes should be navigable somehow, perhaps approaching using witchfuel injectors at maximum speed and a very small navigable area to avoid being crushed to death

Anyway, it could be a nice idea....perhaps a random exit point in a random galaxy with no guarantee of being within 7 LY of the nearest system and with the possibility of a souped-up Thargoid intercept? If allowed it should be extremely hazardous, perhaps 50% chance of thargoid encounter even if successful? and also perhaps random chance of equipment damage.

It should be something that only Iron Ass ships should attempt.

I'm no coder so i'm not sure how possible all this would be....as far as the event horizon, visually, perhaps just a faint glowing halo around pitch blackness...it would be nice if we could depict the surface of a star being stripped off.....probably bot possible though?

Nice descriptions of what a wormhole might do, Parazaine! However I think the concept doesn't quite work if it gets you to somewhere normal. If you have a bottom of iron then you're probably not going to go through a very dangerous wormhole to save 5k without a very good reason - not that one can't be manufactured of course. That's partly why I thought of the "alternative G8" from the Spectrum (and Amiga?) bug with the wormholes - something completely different. It's a way of getting something in there of value.

With regards to the alternative G8 thing I suddenly remembered Tionisla Reporter . . . something from somewhere unknown . . . maybe that could be a linking point? Put a black hole there?

Rich

Just to be a tad pedantic: From a distance black holes do not pull anything in any more than a star or planet of the same mass would. The event horizon is at one Schwarzchild radius from the centre and is dependent on the mass. Due to the distortion of space, within 3 Schwarzchild radii no orbit is stable. I would therefore suggest you only apply a thrust to a ship that gets within 3 radii of the object. Outside of that distance don't do anything as Oolite doesn't apply any thrusts because of the gravity of the system's sun or planets.

From this you should be able to realise that any accretion disk would have an inner edge at about 3 radii.

Regards,

Phantor