These compatible? Globe, PAGroove, TradeOutpost, Gritty?

JeffBTX · Post by **JeffBTX** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:11 pm

I'm a little worried...

I added Globe Station 2 to my addons folder... flown all over galaxy 1... I have yet to see a globe station.

I have these OXPs:
FighterHud.oxp
Fuel Station 1.24.oxp
Galcop_trade_outpost.oxp (Griffs Trade Station without neon)
GrittyCoriolis.oxp,
PAGroove_Stations_v1.2.1.oxp
RandomHits1.3.6.oxp
System_Redux.oxp
Target Reticle 1.2.oxp
... and then I added Globe Station 2.0 with my concurrent savegame.

Would I have to start a NEW game to see ALL the stations including the globe? I AM perfectly willing to do that, and in fact I intend to soon. I added / uninstalled a LOT of OXPs... and I want a "clean, new savegame"... so after I decide SPECIFICALLY what OXPs I want (and after I do a few wacky experiments in the game) I intend to start over again fresh. I assume from reading in many various posts that if one starts a NEW game, these station OXPs would be re-randomized? New game = new Oooverse = new scenery (different distribution)?

In the meantime... Is globe perhaps incompatible with the OXPs I listed? Maybe I need to jump to a new galaxy to see a globe station / "test drive" the OXP to decide if I want to keep it?

- Thanks

JeffBTX · Post by **JeffBTX** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:50 pm

Possibly one of two things MIGHT have interferred...

The globestation2.0.oxp has a requires.plist in it, and it specifically indicated oolite version 1.73. I am running 1.73.4. I don't know if that matters. I tried just deleting the requires.plist file, then I jumped to a new galaxy, flew to many hi-tech systems, never saw a globe. (and I flushed my cache with these experiments).

Also, I have been installing and uninstalling quite a few OXPs to try them out. I don't FULLY understand how OXPs might have permanent effects on a savegame... but I installed and uninstalled the Torus Station OXP about 3 or 4 times. I finally got rid of it because (on my system at least) there is a strange visual artifact when looking at a torus station from certain angles.

ANYWAY the Torus OXP apparantly replaces SPECIFIC stations in specific systems (I looked at the code)... and MAYBE this somehow left references in my savegame that the Globe Station 2.0 couldn't overcome... Oolite simply defaulted to whatever standard station was supposed to be there (in a high tech system).

In any case, I have now started a new game with my 9 favored OXPs (I just recently added sungs_detailed_textures), but left the Globe Station out. I can only assume that between Gritty Coriolis, the PAGroove stations, and the GalcopTrade Outpost, that something interferred with Globe Station; unless it was that Torus thing.

Has anyone run these OXPs: Galcop Trade Outpost, PAGroove Stations, Gritty Coriolis, AND Globe Station 2.0 (Oolite 1.73.4) without problems... that is actually seen a Globe Station somewhere? If so, I will install Globe 2.0 again and start a new game (just to be safe).

Wiki pages · Post by **Thargoid** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:16 am

The only things that gets left in save games by OXPs are mission variables and equipment/weapons you have purchased if they are OXP-provided.

If you run an OXP that uses the MV, they will then be in your save game. You then delete that OXP, they will still be there, and if you put it back then they will be available to the OXP to carry on using as if you'd never removed it (presuming the OXP itself hasn't changed and you've not done hackery pokery on the save). With the weapons it can be somewhat different, as if they are no longer available to the game the relevant pylons are treated as empty.

Only downside is that if you try a lot of OXPs and discard most of them, your save game can end up bloated with junk and mission variable debris. But that's about the only thing it screws up iirc.

Normally OXPs add ships by role (trader, police etc) and those are then added to the "pool" of ships that are picked up by the populator. They may also specifically add ships via scripting, but that is a slightly different and more specialised case. In the case of stations it can work along similar lines, either adding to the pool (in the case of PAGroove's, and perhaps some of the others), or by specific replacement (in the case of my own Aquatics, and Torus).

What I would do first is check your log files and confirm that globe station OXP is actually loading correctly and also is not giving any errors. Then if all looks OK have a look in the shipdata.plist file for the station (or the readme file possibly) and see if there are restrictions on tech level, system govt etc that are limiting where it can appear. Also check the roles to see if it has been weighed to be incredibly rare or something. And if there is no reason why it cannot appear, then maybe just be patient and eventually it will

Editted to add - grabbed the OXP and had a look - it should replace Icosahedron stations with a weighting of 0.5 (ie it's half as likely to appear as a regular one) with the X1 variant at 0.3. So look for systems where you would normally see an ico. Can't check the OXP is bug-free or not as I don't have oolite installed on this PC - will leave that as an exercise to the Jameson

.

JeffBTX · Post by **JeffBTX** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:49 am

Thargoid...

Thanks... and if PAGroove is ALSO adding to the pool of ICOs... (if I understand correctly) then Globes would become rarer and rarer still.

So I have decided to just trim OXPs. It's a kind of cosmic "tension" between the simplicity and perfection of Just Oolite, and its modability. I love Griffs New Shiny Ships, but not all are done, and I imagine it's a more complicated OXP, with... scripts... and... shaders... and... speculars... and... things. Therefore: sungs_detailed_textures fits the bill.

I've also decided to trim out RandomHits for a couple of minor reasons (MINOR... because otherwise it's an excellent piece of work).

I am about to delete the samegame that I started over with this afternoon (before it turned into nightime) with my "final list" (not a BIT of bloat):
FighterHud.oxp
Fuel Station 1.24.oxp
Galcop_trade_outpost.oxp
GrittyCoriolis.oxp
PAGroove_Stations_v1.2.1.oxp
sungs_detailed_textures.oxp
System_Redux.oxp
Target Reticle 1.2.oxp

JeffBTX · Post by **JeffBTX** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:43 am

I just noticed something for the first time... this might answer the (original) question, and it is a good thing to know anyway, for debugging somewhat.

If you load Oolite, specify 'N' (no) to "Load New Comander", but DO NOT press a SPACE key right away ("Press SPACE, Commander"), then Oolite plays out the theme music over and over again, AND it sequentially displays all the objects in the game! Including OXP items. It was showing the Griff Coriolis' and Trade Outpost and PAGroove stations... BY VARIANT NAME! So I will retry Globe Stations 2.0

One thing... I ran across a thread that showed a massively huge Globe Station (bigger than a planet). I HOPE that was just a JOKE!(!?) I guess I'll find out....

EDIT:
... and pressing right-arrow (PC) allows you to quickly step through all of the objects. And Globe Stations DID NOT appear. Pressing left-arrow allows you to go backwards thru the list of objects.

Log DOES show:
(Resources, ../AddOns, ../AddOns/FighterHud.oxp, "../AddOns/Fuel Station 1.24.oxp", ../AddOns/Galcop_trade_outpost.oxp, ../AddOns/globestation2.0.oxp, ../AddOns/GrittyCoriolis.oxp, ../AddOns/PAGroove_Stations_v1.2.1.oxp, ../AddOns/sungs_detailed_textures.oxp, ../AddOns/System_Redux.oxp, "../AddOns/Target Reticle 1.2.oxp")

... so there must be a conflict of some kind. Back to removing Globe Stations from AddOns...

Commander McLane · Post by **Commander McLane** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:16 am

For showing a ship (or station) model on the startup screen, the OXP has to contain a demoships.plist, containing the entity name. If this isn't in globestations.oxp, you won't see a spinning globe station among the other models. (Quick check: Globestation2.oxp doesn't. So nothing to be worried about.)

The answer to your question is probably that Icosahedrons are pretty rare in the first place (they are only chosen for very high tech worlds (perhaps TL 13+ only, although I'm not sure about the exact limit)). Which of the different Icosahedron models is chosen for a given system, is determined pseudo-randomly. But as a general rule: the more choice Oolite has (by having many stations with the role "icosahedron"), the smaller the chance gets for each individual station in the mix. Therefore you may hugely increase the likelyhood of a globe station by removing the PAGroove stations, as they contain a couple of competing contenders.

JeffBTX · Post by **JeffBTX** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:22 am

Commander McLane;

Thank you - that adds to the personal knowledgebase (re: demoships).

I like the PAGroove stations so much that I will either keep things as they are, OR try Globe Station 2.0 again and alter it for a demoships.plist. I will probably do that, if nothing else just for the experience. This will mean starting over again for like the 4th or 5th time today. I'm kind of obsessive-compulsive about having a "clean" savegame with no references to OXPs that I have removed, no traces of "experiments or test drives". I don't mind starting over.

I also did the same with the supercobra... it didn't show up, but apparantly (probably) that didn't have a demoships.plist either, so I scrapped it, thinking (erroneously) that it wasn't loading. BUT I research the supercobra here in the board, and apparantly there are some problems (and depending on one's views, perhaps it's unbalancing). The main reason I would (eventually) want one is for the "Constrictor Hunt", but I am sure people have done that successfully with a standard Cobra Mk III (maybe after a few tries - I remember from Elite C-64, that mission wiped me all over the floor several times).

Given my playing style, "what I want to get out of Oolite", I probably will not be using any Ship OXPs or Mission OXPs (unless RandomHits gets fully updated); and I will probably always stick with a Cobra Mk III.

Commander McLane · Post by **Commander McLane** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:59 am

There is the alternative of increasing the likelihood of having a globe station selected by increasing its role-probability. And this is indeed your complete answer. Let me explain:

Whenever spawning a ship by its role, Oolite collects all ships having the specified role and puts them into a bag, so to speak, which then gets shaken, and one of the ships is taken out and placed into the Ooniverse. The trick is, however, that there is not just one specimen of every possible variant put into the bag. That's what the role probability is for, which is expressed as a number in brackets behind the role.

Now, in PAGrooveStations.oxp each of the stations has the following roles:

Code: Select all

roles = "icosahedron(10.0) station";

Each of them has a role probability of 10. Which means that for every original Icosahedron ten specimen of each variant of the PAGroove icosahedron are found in the bag. There are four different variants. Which means that finally the bag contains 41 stations: 1 vanilla, and 40 PAGroove variants. This is to make sure that in the vast majority of cases we don't get the vanilla station, and is exactly the same for the other station types.

And here's the problem for the Globe station. The OXP was written before PAGroove stations came out, and therefore couldn't take into account the radically different mix "in the bag". It defines:

Code: Select all

roles = "icosahedron(0.5) station(0.001) globestation";

The Globe station was intended to replace only part of the vanilla icosahedrons. But with the PAGroove stations in the mix, the new bag content now looks like this: 1 vanilla, 40 PAGroove stations, and only half a Globe. Or, in whole numbers: 2 vanilla, 80 PAGroove stations, and 1 Globe. In other words: By adding four more stations with a big role probability the probability for the Globe station shrunk from 1/3 to 1/83. (And this is only if there are no more entities with role "icosahedron".)

Fortunately the remedy is easy: Simple change the Globe's role probability from 0.5 to 10, in order to give it equal chances with any of the PAGroove stations. Or to 5 in order to make it appear half as much as any of the individual PAGroove stations. Or to 40 in order to make every second Icosahedron a Globe. You get the maths behind.

Glad to be of help.

JeffBTX · Post by **JeffBTX** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:27 am

Commander McLane - Thanks very much for that explanation! It's appreciated.

Svengali · Post by **Svengali** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:39 pm

Maybe we should give all station-oxps that are meant to replace mainstations a planetinfo.plist to specify a few systems (maybe 3 per galaxy) that always have this stationtype. Together with the probabilities in it's roles it would avoid another 'race' and it would also keep the chance for the native ones.

JeffBTX · Post by **JeffBTX** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:00 pm

Svengali wrote:
Maybe we should give all station-oxps that are meant to replace mainstations a planetinfo.plist to specify a few systems (maybe 3 per galaxy) that always have this stationtype. Together with the probabilities in it's roles it would avoid another 'race' and it would also keep the chance for the native ones.

Is that being considered for inclusion into 1.74?

For the time being...
I've started over, and started a new series of savegame archives.
I'm currently playing with NO OXPs. At least until after certain goals are complete.
(1) Upon fully upgrading a Cobra Mk III with ALL equipment, less mission-specific equipment; plus a few credits (just enough for a cargohold full of computers... with 1x passenger berth).
(2) "Jumping Off" point before the "Constrictor Hunt" mission.
(3) "Jumping Off" point before "Thargoid Plans".
(4) Points before GL 4 and 5, "Nova" and "Cloaking device". I am not sure of EXACTLY when these will occur; I will just back up my savegame often (maybe a sequential series of saves) whenever the ship is in good shape and repair, and when a mission occurs (triggered) I will restore the previous save and archive it as a "goal point".

But in the meantime, I HAVE considered a personal OXP that makes specific assignments... or they are re-worked or something. Maybe integrating PAGroove, Globe2, and GriffTradeOutpost, GrittyCoriolis into one OXP (again for PERSONAL use).

Maybe *ALL* (specifically defined) TL 14/15 or just 15 = Globe stations... and so forth.

A question (I've asked before)... this almost sounds silly... the actual Globe Stations 2.0 thread has screenshots of an extremely LARGE globe station, bigger than a planet. I ASSUME this is a joke, that it was hacked. BUT Globe Stations 2.0 (while I was examining it) DID have two versions, the lower-probability one being "XL" or something. So is this true - that Globe2 has a planet-sized station? I don't want that. I guess I could alter the file.

----

I also tried the Torus Stations OXP... I basically liked it, except that on my system there was a strange visual artifact along certain edges/joints from certain angles. This is the only place (situation) where I have seen this, so I can assume it is the OXP and that others have seen it too.

-----

Svengali · Post by **Svengali** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:53 pm

JeffBTX wrote:
Is that being considered for inclusion into 1.74?

No, it has nothing to do with Oolite itself, it's a oxp thingie. We (oxpers) could avoid some conflicts this way.

JeffBTX wrote:
... the actual Globe Stations 2.0 thread has screenshots of an extremely LARGE globe station, bigger than a planet. I ASSUME this is a joke, that it was hacked. BUT Globe Stations 2.0 (while I was examining it) DID have two versions, the lower-probability one being "XL" or something. So is this true - that Globe2 has a planet-sized station? I don't want that. I guess I could alter the file.

I think Eric has made it as a testcase - it's not in Globestations.

JeffBTX wrote:
I also tried the Torus Stations OXP... I basically liked it, except that on my system there was a strange visual artifact along certain edges/joints from certain angles. This is the only place (situation) where I have seen this, so I can assume it is the OXP and that others have seen it too.

Oh, I'm currently reworking this one, so stay tuned...

JazHaz · Post by **JazHaz** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:23 pm

JeffBTX wrote:
I also tried the Torus Stations OXP... I basically liked it, except that on my system there was a strange visual artifact along certain edges/joints from certain angles. This is the only place (situation) where I have seen this, so I can assume it is the OXP and that others have seen it too.

Hmmm, thats sounds familiar...!

Only yesterday I installed PAGroove's stations oxp, as previously I thought that as my PC won't do shaders, that there was no point. Then I realised that shaders and textures were two different things...!

The new stations do display very well, however with some of the stations as they rotate, you can sometimes see through the stations to see the other side and see the edges rotating in the opposite direction (should be hidden).

I'm now wondering if this is the same visual problem that you are describing in the Torus stations...?

Website · Post by **DaddyHoggy** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:48 pm

JeffBTX wrote:
I just noticed something for the first time... this might answer the (original) question, and it is a good thing to know anyway, for debugging somewhat.

If you load Oolite, specify 'N' (no) to "Load New Comander", but DO NOT press a SPACE key right away ("Press SPACE, Commander"), then Oolite plays out the theme music over and over again, AND it sequentially displays all the objects in the game! Including OXP items. It was showing the Griff Coriolis' and Trade Outpost and PAGroove stations... BY VARIANT NAME! So I will retry Globe Stations 2.0

One thing... I ran across a thread that showed a massively huge Globe Station (bigger than a planet). I HOPE that was just a JOKE!(!?) I guess I'll find out....

EDIT:
... and pressing right-arrow (PC) allows you to quickly step through all of the objects. And Globe Stations DID NOT appear. Pressing left-arrow allows you to go backwards thru the list of objects.

Log DOES show:
(Resources, ../AddOns, ../AddOns/FighterHud.oxp, "../AddOns/Fuel Station 1.24.oxp", ../AddOns/Galcop_trade_outpost.oxp, ../AddOns/globestation2.0.oxp, ../AddOns/GrittyCoriolis.oxp, ../AddOns/PAGroove_Stations_v1.2.1.oxp, ../AddOns/sungs_detailed_textures.oxp, ../AddOns/System_Redux.oxp, "../AddOns/Target Reticle 1.2.oxp")

... so there must be a conflict of some kind. Back to removing Globe Stations from AddOns...

And if you see a ship you like, you tap the left arrow once it's gone and you can see it again!

JeffBTX · Post by **JeffBTX** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:33 pm

JazHaz wrote:
JeffBTX wrote:
I also tried the Torus Stations OXP... I basically liked it, except that on my system there was a strange visual artifact along certain edges/joints from certain angles. This is the only place (situation) where I have seen this, so I can assume it is the OXP and that others have seen it too.
Hmmm, thats sounds familiar...!

Only yesterday I installed PAGroove's stations oxp, as previously I thought that as my PC won't do shaders, that there was no point. Then I realised that shaders and textures were two different things...!

The new stations do display very well, however with some of the stations as they rotate, you can sometimes see through the stations to see the other side and see the edges rotating in the opposite direction (should be hidden).

I'm now wondering if this is the same visual problem that you are describing in the Torus stations...?

JazHaz... NO you shouldn't be seeing that with PAGroove... I didn't see ANYTHING wrong with PAGroove, or GrittyCoriolis or Griffs Trade Outpost. It sounds like MAYBE its a driver problem, at a guess. Hopefully you can fixit, or live with it, or maybe your card ISNT fully shader ready.

Anyway ... Torus... when I approach the Tori from certain angles the "trench" along the outer edge of the "wheel" is full of the artifact. It looks like many triangles that appear and disappear rapidly between frames (30 - 60 FPS or whatever... I don't know my frame rate... but I know its high). Kind of hard to describe. I think it is probably a problem with the model(s) in the OXP.

Also, the torus needs a much longer distance from it before you can go into WitchSpace (which space? THAT space! Hehehe). But I think that is by design, and it's logical... not complaining about it.