Thats true, but it would be nice if there was a way to implement crew that felt so natural almost everyne would want it.
I quite liked the way it was dont in the Frointier games, but there are simpler ways to implement it.
I think stopping you from launching with too few crews is enough, and damage could simply be one member killed. Doesnt have to be complex.
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Crew for big ships?
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DaddyHoggy
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I concur - get it in - get everybody to want it - fun helps with this - and atmospheric - so injecting stuff via snoopers would be good - and then add additional complexity once it becomes the norm...
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Killer Wolf
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just another thought - perhaps the fees could be tied in w/ the pilot's status? if you're Offender, people might be reluctant to fly w/ you. if you become fugitive the fees would go through the roof due to the risk of death from cops or bounty hunters. i was considering that the GoCHAOS might refuse to deal w/ you at all but that would kinda end that game at that point and for a ship sale, unless there's the GoCHAOS running in conjuction w/ other less reputable people to hire.
The downside with Frontier's method was the finite number of crew at a station at a given time. Which meant if you rocked up to a station, decided to upgrade to a big ship and there were only a few crew members wanting work available, you had to keep accelerating time for days until eventually enough turned up.Cmdr James wrote:I quite liked the way it was dont in the Frointier games, but there are simpler ways to implement it.
Yes this was believeable, but hardly great fun.
A better way of doing crew is for there to be a larger, but finite, list and have those individual crew members have different attributes. No idea how this would work though.
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pagroove
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Ok who takes the challenge to start implementing this into an oxp 
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Been pondering this one for a bit as crew interactions are a big part of the fun in sf. Having multiple crew-beings gives you a name to shout at when things go wrong
The problem as I see it with a simplified version of crews is that it just turns into a big ship tax. It won't really add much depth to the gameplay, and the crew just act as an arbitratry list of names (where the system fell short in Frontier IMO).
As a starting point (so it wouldn't just be a handicapping OXP) every ship can be flown solo - automated systems "man" the crew positions. Adding crew gives bonuses to a ship to offset the fact you have to pay for them. This way you don't need hundreds of potential crewmembers littering up spaceports - you can gradually build up a crew with the automated systems filling in the blanks. Also, as the auto systems take up the slack you can always launch regardless of the numbers of crew hired.
A ship has a maximum number of crew equal to 10% of its (unexpanded - cargo bays are just a rejig) cargo capacity - rounding up. I'd suggest that adding an organic crewmember takes up 1 ton of cargo space - they have enough room to perform their duties in the default ship but need somewhere to bunk down. When accessing the crew screen, they can be allocated to various roles within the ship to confer differing bonuses (a few ideas of roles & effects are below). It would be more flexible to have crewmembers with skill points across the various roles - this would determine the salary. So an uber crewmember would be skilled in all aspects of ship operation - so could navigate, repair, shoot effectively - but would cost lots to hire whereas a specialist would cost significantly less (depending on skills within speciality).
Suggested roles are:
Co-pilot - max 3/ship: Allocated to pitch, roll or yaw, these folk increase the speed of their respective motions. Unnecessary on light, maneuverable craft, on large ships they can operate the attitude thrusters more intelligently than the default systems so making them less wallowy.
Navigator - max 2/ship(?): Monitor the currents within witchspace for more efficient travel. They can't get a ship to exceed the 7LY jump, but instead reduce the effective jump distance. So a jump would use less fuel & time with them plotting the course. The greater their skills, the greater the reducing effect.
Tactician - max 2/ship(?): Have 2 duties during in-system travel. Firstly they can identify the bounty on ships within scanner range - the least skilled can only identify those with the largest bounties, the most skilled identify every ship with a price on its head (borrowing Screet's scanner recolouring idea there - but also feeds into gunner operation). Secondly they can identify vessels in system by their role - pirates, traders, hunters, police etc - and add markers to the advanced space compass for these. Greater skill increases the range applicable (numpties only within scanner range - the best system wide).
Loadmasters - max unlimited: With their cargo lifters they can load up the cargo bay a lot more intelligently than the automated systems. They confer an increase in cargo capacity depending on skill level (note: if one is injured so cargo capacity drops below the amount loaded, excess isn't lost but no more can be added).
Engineers - max unlimited: These can make repairs to damaged equipment - same principle as the Caduceus's Damage Control Node. More skill means more likelyhood of repairs being successful and higher tech level equpment that they can repair. Their presence also extends time between servicing as they perform routine maintenance.
Medic - max 2/ship(?): Same idea as for engineers, but can repair damaged crewmembers. Their presence also reduces any illness problems among crew.
Service beings - max unlimited, min 10% of crew (rounded down): Small crews can look after themselves, when there are more folk onboard then cooks, cleaners etc are needed. Although as a side benefit they also extend the time between servicings (cleaning stuff keeps it working) and reduce crew illness problems. If injury means that the ship has fallen short of the minimum then there is a dramatic increase in crew illness problems (attack of the killer Pot Noodles). Extra crew (other than service beings) cannot be hired if this will lead to the number of service beings becoming less than the minimum (i.e. after hiring 9 regular crew, a service being must be hired).
Armourers - max unlimited: These add extra missile capacity to a ship (the extra per armourer varies with skill level) as they can reload the firing tubes from stores in the hold. They can also manufacture missiles - regular missile requiring 1 ton of machinery to make, ECM hardened needing 1 ton of computers as well as a ton of machinery. Rate of manufacture (and ability to make ECM hardened) affected by skill level. Making missiles does take time, so loading up with ingredients to make & resell should be a slowish process.
Gunners - max 1 per gun mount/turret: When allocated to a turret, they use their skill to determine the accuracy of its fire (although their targetting protocol can be adjusted). When assigned to one of the fixed points, these function as turrets unless you are using the corresponding view. In the latter case the weapon reverts to the usual direct fire for as long as you are using that particular view. For targetting their shots, they'd choose the nearest target satisfying the criteria you had set - true/false from the list: Current Target; Hostile; Has Bounty (determined by either previous targetting by self, or by tactician); System Vessel. So it should be possible to set them up for everything from only shooting at your current, criminal target to taking potshots at anything that ambles into range (no point being a pirate if your crew won't shoot the traders ).
Really just a collection of ideas here - whether or not it could even be implemented in this form I have no idea. But with the allocation of crew it could permit even greater customisation of a ship's role. Hopefully it wouldn't need excessive micro-management unless desired by the pilot either.
The problem as I see it with a simplified version of crews is that it just turns into a big ship tax. It won't really add much depth to the gameplay, and the crew just act as an arbitratry list of names (where the system fell short in Frontier IMO).
As a starting point (so it wouldn't just be a handicapping OXP) every ship can be flown solo - automated systems "man" the crew positions. Adding crew gives bonuses to a ship to offset the fact you have to pay for them. This way you don't need hundreds of potential crewmembers littering up spaceports - you can gradually build up a crew with the automated systems filling in the blanks. Also, as the auto systems take up the slack you can always launch regardless of the numbers of crew hired.
A ship has a maximum number of crew equal to 10% of its (unexpanded - cargo bays are just a rejig) cargo capacity - rounding up. I'd suggest that adding an organic crewmember takes up 1 ton of cargo space - they have enough room to perform their duties in the default ship but need somewhere to bunk down. When accessing the crew screen, they can be allocated to various roles within the ship to confer differing bonuses (a few ideas of roles & effects are below). It would be more flexible to have crewmembers with skill points across the various roles - this would determine the salary. So an uber crewmember would be skilled in all aspects of ship operation - so could navigate, repair, shoot effectively - but would cost lots to hire whereas a specialist would cost significantly less (depending on skills within speciality).
Suggested roles are:
Co-pilot - max 3/ship: Allocated to pitch, roll or yaw, these folk increase the speed of their respective motions. Unnecessary on light, maneuverable craft, on large ships they can operate the attitude thrusters more intelligently than the default systems so making them less wallowy.
Navigator - max 2/ship(?): Monitor the currents within witchspace for more efficient travel. They can't get a ship to exceed the 7LY jump, but instead reduce the effective jump distance. So a jump would use less fuel & time with them plotting the course. The greater their skills, the greater the reducing effect.
Tactician - max 2/ship(?): Have 2 duties during in-system travel. Firstly they can identify the bounty on ships within scanner range - the least skilled can only identify those with the largest bounties, the most skilled identify every ship with a price on its head (borrowing Screet's scanner recolouring idea there - but also feeds into gunner operation). Secondly they can identify vessels in system by their role - pirates, traders, hunters, police etc - and add markers to the advanced space compass for these. Greater skill increases the range applicable (numpties only within scanner range - the best system wide).
Loadmasters - max unlimited: With their cargo lifters they can load up the cargo bay a lot more intelligently than the automated systems. They confer an increase in cargo capacity depending on skill level (note: if one is injured so cargo capacity drops below the amount loaded, excess isn't lost but no more can be added).
Engineers - max unlimited: These can make repairs to damaged equipment - same principle as the Caduceus's Damage Control Node. More skill means more likelyhood of repairs being successful and higher tech level equpment that they can repair. Their presence also extends time between servicing as they perform routine maintenance.
Medic - max 2/ship(?): Same idea as for engineers, but can repair damaged crewmembers. Their presence also reduces any illness problems among crew.
Service beings - max unlimited, min 10% of crew (rounded down): Small crews can look after themselves, when there are more folk onboard then cooks, cleaners etc are needed. Although as a side benefit they also extend the time between servicings (cleaning stuff keeps it working) and reduce crew illness problems. If injury means that the ship has fallen short of the minimum then there is a dramatic increase in crew illness problems (attack of the killer Pot Noodles). Extra crew (other than service beings) cannot be hired if this will lead to the number of service beings becoming less than the minimum (i.e. after hiring 9 regular crew, a service being must be hired).
Armourers - max unlimited: These add extra missile capacity to a ship (the extra per armourer varies with skill level) as they can reload the firing tubes from stores in the hold. They can also manufacture missiles - regular missile requiring 1 ton of machinery to make, ECM hardened needing 1 ton of computers as well as a ton of machinery. Rate of manufacture (and ability to make ECM hardened) affected by skill level. Making missiles does take time, so loading up with ingredients to make & resell should be a slowish process.
Gunners - max 1 per gun mount/turret: When allocated to a turret, they use their skill to determine the accuracy of its fire (although their targetting protocol can be adjusted). When assigned to one of the fixed points, these function as turrets unless you are using the corresponding view. In the latter case the weapon reverts to the usual direct fire for as long as you are using that particular view. For targetting their shots, they'd choose the nearest target satisfying the criteria you had set - true/false from the list: Current Target; Hostile; Has Bounty (determined by either previous targetting by self, or by tactician); System Vessel. So it should be possible to set them up for everything from only shooting at your current, criminal target to taking potshots at anything that ambles into range (no point being a pirate if your crew won't shoot the traders
).Really just a collection of ideas here - whether or not it could even be implemented in this form I have no idea. But with the allocation of crew it could permit even greater customisation of a ship's role. Hopefully it wouldn't need excessive micro-management unless desired by the pilot either.
I suggest taking a tour of military ships and civilian cargo ships, or at least their blueprints.
The amount of equipment and space (volume & mass) required by crew may vary according to the conditions the crew will endure. Submariners were in cramped conditions compared to crews aboard battleships.
Elite/Oolite ships vary in size and cargo capacity. But as some people have noted, there are variations and inconsistencies in the size of a ship and its cargo capacity as a ratio of the total ship volume.
Multi-species crews may require additional environmental and life support equipment. Or are the life support systems sufficiently advanced and efficient enough to overcome a wider variety of environment requirements?
The standard passenger berth takes up 5T of cargo space and supports one passenger. Such accomodations are considered luxurious, but perhaps a larger portion of the 5T specification is consumed by the life support equipment than the the living quarters.
What happens to ships that carry combinations of crew & passengers which exceed the ship's normal environmental support capabilities?
Example #1 : A ship rescues the crew(s) of disabled or destroyed ship(s) and takes aboard a number of sentients which is three times the normal capacity of the life support systems.
Example #2 : A ship of water-breathing/inhabiting crew rescues sentients who normally exist in an atmosphere (or vice-versa).
[Note: Currently, such rescues are scooped escape pods and the beings scooped are frozen and become "slaves" on the cargo manifest.]
What, (if any), emergency equipment would a ship be required to carry? Escape capsules? Space suits?
Who pays the cost of such equipment?
Given the costs of crews in terms of ship design specifications (reduced cargo capacity), wages and support expenses, I'm surprised anyone besides miltaries or interstellar trading concerns (using Anaconda or Behemoth sized vessels) are able to afford a crew.
The amount of equipment and space (volume & mass) required by crew may vary according to the conditions the crew will endure. Submariners were in cramped conditions compared to crews aboard battleships.
Elite/Oolite ships vary in size and cargo capacity. But as some people have noted, there are variations and inconsistencies in the size of a ship and its cargo capacity as a ratio of the total ship volume.
Multi-species crews may require additional environmental and life support equipment. Or are the life support systems sufficiently advanced and efficient enough to overcome a wider variety of environment requirements?
The standard passenger berth takes up 5T of cargo space and supports one passenger. Such accomodations are considered luxurious, but perhaps a larger portion of the 5T specification is consumed by the life support equipment than the the living quarters.
What happens to ships that carry combinations of crew & passengers which exceed the ship's normal environmental support capabilities?
Example #1 : A ship rescues the crew(s) of disabled or destroyed ship(s) and takes aboard a number of sentients which is three times the normal capacity of the life support systems.
Example #2 : A ship of water-breathing/inhabiting crew rescues sentients who normally exist in an atmosphere (or vice-versa).
[Note: Currently, such rescues are scooped escape pods and the beings scooped are frozen and become "slaves" on the cargo manifest.]
What, (if any), emergency equipment would a ship be required to carry? Escape capsules? Space suits?
Who pays the cost of such equipment?
Given the costs of crews in terms of ship design specifications (reduced cargo capacity), wages and support expenses, I'm surprised anyone besides miltaries or interstellar trading concerns (using Anaconda or Behemoth sized vessels) are able to afford a crew.
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Killer Wolf
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i think this is slightly veering towards the overcomplication side of things. great for debate and back history but not essential for the game, at least on an initial implementation. picking a crew from a bunch of Pshopped images, or even just selecting a GoCHAOS group, and then implementing waging system based on a per-jump or per-docking basis is about as far as this needs to go. if it was possible to adjust ship stats according to crew experience etc that'd be awesome but i think the above bare essentials are as much as is needed to add a little fun to the game to start w/.
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DaddyHoggy
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Here! Here! KISS followed by complications once it proves itself!Killer Wolf wrote:i think this is slightly veering towards the overcomplication side of things. great for debate and back history but not essential for the game, at least on an initial implementation. picking a crew from a bunch of Pshopped images, or even just selecting a GoCHAOS group, and then implementing waging system based on a per-jump or per-docking basis is about as far as this needs to go. if it was possible to adjust ship stats according to crew experience etc that'd be awesome but i think the above bare essentials are as much as is needed to add a little fun to the game to start w/.
Glad to see the name GoCHAOS has stuck!
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Killer Wolf
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DaddyHoggy
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Killer Wolf wrote:"KISS followed by complications once it proves itself! "
just like it is w/ girlies
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Cmdr James
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GoCHAOS makes me think of the villains of KAOS from television show "Get Smart" combined with an old U.S. Navy motivational phrase "Go Navy".Cmdr James wrote:GoCHAOS doesnt exactly scream "crew" to me. Id think something more like SRMT (the Space, Rail, Maritime and Transport union) would be suitable. Maybe with Bob Croo at its healm
Or maybe "The Oonion".
GoCHAOS sounds too much like either pirates, terrorists, or a Go boardgame club.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Smart
I like SRMT, but would like to change it to SMRT to make it easier to pronounce as "smert".
Perhaps there could be competing (or affiliated?) unions?
Also, could there be organizations or companies that are non-union and provide the same services?
What do you think?
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Cmdr James
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I realised that not everyone would understand SRMT. SRMT is kind of a british joke, which fits the elite humour nicely. The main union on the london underground is the RMT, so its natural extension in to add Space to the front SRMT.
RMT is pronounced as 'are emm, tea', I think SRMT would be 'ess are emm, tea', and SMRT pronounced 'smart'.
RMT is pronounced as 'are emm, tea', I think SRMT would be 'ess are emm, tea', and SMRT pronounced 'smart'.