LittleBear wrote:Hi all,
The reason I got into writing for Oolite in the first place was that it was fun.
I’m afraid it ceases to be fun if I cannot update my own work, because Lestrade has decided unilaterally that he can simply Copy and Paste anything I have written into OSE and release it.
The legal rights or wrongs of it are really not the point. The point is that it changes the nature of the project from being one of, when I have time and the mood takes me I can write some code for an OXP to one of: when I feel like writing some code for an OXP I must first write it and test it and the submit it to Lestrade to include in OSE.
Frankly, it changes the nature of the task from one that is a bit of a laugh that I can do when I feel like it, to submitting work to a boss.
Whilst I can see the advantages of a “One OXP to Rule them all”, as a writer I don’t particularly like being ruled by OSE, so I’m giving up writing any new code.
Anybody, including Lestrade, should feel free to use anything I’ve submitted to the project for the good of the project, but I do not intend to write anything more or update any of my OXPs.
I do think it is a shame that the project has effectively been divided into OSE v everything else. But I haven’t got either the time or inclination to write for Oolite, when anything I do write I immediately lose control over and cannot expand or bugfix without it going through the OSE clearing house.
I’ll drop by from time to time, but basically I’m retiring from the project.
And I mean it.I've been on this board for quite a while now so some of you won't remember the Sung incident, but I do, LB was on the end of that too, but this is hundreds of time worse and for that I am very sad.
I have read every single post of the Licensing discussion, it was been very painful to do so - while I don't create OXPs you can't write almost 3.5K posts, create over 10% of the ads for YAH, hundreds of news items of Snoopers/LH2 and come up with the odd suggestion that has gone on to inspire the creation of some wonderful OXPs from those infinitely more creative and clever than I (puts down trumpet) without feeling that Oolite and (oddly?) more importantly this forum has become a huge percentage of what little free time I have.
Oolite is not multi-player, but this forum makes it more multi-player than any multi-player game I have ever played.
This has been coming for a long time hasn't it - I can't be the only one who saw it coming, but just hoped somehow it would go away...
Well it didn't.
Lots of us did (do) stuff for Oolite without giving a second thought to licensing because that not what Oolite is about and it's not the kind of people who are doing stuff for Oolite are about either.
However, Ahruman has rightly pointed out that we do not live in a bubble and that rules and laws (horribly and nonsensical though some of them are) do apply even here in the Ooniverse and they can't be ignored or by-passed.
I will not do Ahruman the disservice of trying to second guess his intent other than to assume he wanted this sorted, for good or ill, once and for all.
LB - reading what Ahruman wrote about licensing as far as I can see you can continue to work on modifying/adding/creating OXPs and release them under a ND license - L can cry "not fair" all he wants but a line needs to be drawn under O(S)E now I feel - we cannot uncreate the atom bomb - but those who feel they (rightly) wish to share their work with the community but wish to remain in control over what happens to it have the legal/moral right to do so - this will not destroy the community as some have hinted at/insinuated - I think long term it will strengthen bonds - not break them - it will remind us to ask the genius oxp creators if we can use their stuff in our own efforts - they see where their work is going and how somebody has thought of something else to do with it and us lesser mortals get to stand on the shoulders of giants - Oolite will continue to get better.
L irrespective of how much work you've put into RS/O(S)E please don't play the defenceless, injured, hard-done-by party in this, you laid your cards on the table when you started the "deliberately breaking OXPs" poll over Catalysm - that raised a few eyebrows, there were a few heated words but this is a good community and in the end we let it slide. Perhaps things won't be so friendly this time round...
I do feel somewhat distanced from this because I don't want to and I don't think I could run O(S)E and therefore I have always watched its consumption of other oxps with the odd raised eyebrow but nothing more, but more and more threads have started out with "This doesn't work", followed by "are you running OSE? Coz that's been fixed in the latest, native version of the OXP". Surely that must tell you something - it tell me that OE is too big to be managed properly and that of all the OXPs you've sucked in either the original OXP creators have gone or current ones have no interest in supporting your efforts specifically (i.e. they're relying on you - to check (everyday? hour? minute?) that an OXP has been fixed, updated and re-uploaded and to also fix your version too. Finally, from what Ahruman wrote in another thread, the way Oolite does some of its implementation was changed so you could specifically re-engineer RS (and therefore I presume OE) to avoid many of these points of contention and avoidance of terms such a licensing and derivative work and you have NOT done this.
Can I suggest the following - OE exists - so be it - for those whose who have had oxps sucked into it without thinking you needed a license (and therefore could maintain control) - c'est la vie - unfortunate, sad, annoying - yes, but it has happened. L - you fix what you have and release OE as is, if it grows from here then it must be of your own work and/or with the express permission of the creators of (improved/bug-fixed/new) oxps many of whom I imagine will now start to add licenses (ND) to whatever they do from this moment on (after all from this moment on any oxp creator can modify their oxp to say, dump a variable to the log file, issue this as new new oxp with a new ND license and that's the end of that for future inclusion in OE). The problem is, as far as I can see, you have assumed (incorrectly) that the free (and easy) spirit of the Oolite community meant you could take what you wanted and make it yours (and leaving the readme or acknowledgement of the original source OXP is not the point). Nor is this a question of scale, the difference between me creating a new ship and using the shaders from Griff, who in-turn, got them from Ahruman (with suitable acknowledgement) is not the same as pulling in loads of OXPs and then manipulating them to fit your ideals of Oolite (and stating - if you don't like the idea of RS/OE then don't download it/use it is not sufficient!).
The reason so many people are up in arms about this is that you have revealed the flaws in our happy little commune - that our "hippy ideals" can be used against us to create a monster (not you - your meta-oxp) - there is anger because there is sadness and embarrassment that we thought we could continue on sharing the odd file or lines of code or texture or ship design and that everybody would play "fair" but, for me (and I don't think I'm alone), your idea of "fair and reasonable" and a huge portion (I'm not saying majority because I don't know this to be the case) of this Coommunity are widely are irrevocably out of step.
Ho hum. Very sad now, that I should write so many words on such a subject, Who'd have thought it.
I will refrain, for the time being, welcoming people to the friendliest board this side of Riedquat, because this will get worse before it gets better, though I shall not abandon the forum or the friends I have made here nor the game/community I love so much. However, I do need to go wander off, suck my thumb and skulk for a while...
Later,
DH
but have been watching this debate with mounting horror - not least because a comment of mine seemed to be the final straw. So I'm going to throw in my 2 credits worth as a relative newcomer to both Oolite and this board.
)
