Vector Map

[Nemoricus]

From my perspective, the most important parts of these maps are the locations of the systems, their economic, political, and technological status, and the links between them. Along with their names, of course. Population and racial composition is a nice bonus. However, the former allows me to search for safe and profitable routes. PhantorGorth's code comes up with that aspect very quickly and I find that very useful.

ClymAngus's maps do look nicer when finished, but it takes much longer to finish each one. While we wait for ClymAngus to do so, PhantorGorth could make the maps for the last two galaxies, if only as a temporary measure.

However, I do have to say that PhantorGorth has been working on the Galaxy 6 map for more than a month now and this is first time I've heard people actively complain about it and the method he used to make it. There has been plenty of time for people to step up and say what they like or dislike about it before now. However, only minor things like naming conventions came up. So, why is there now a problem?

[ClymAngus]

As the pariah of the piece, I reserve the right to defend or crave forgiveness on a point by point basis, as Shylock did before me:

If I may begin the defense with an opening statement, the division of power always ends badly.

Well it looks like people don't want what I have done.

Only 2 people have replied, and they have not said that your work is worthless only that there might be another way of putting it. No attack has been made against you or your work, only my late declaration of intent, and two voices lightly supporting my endeavor.

Given that we seem to be mostly arguing over the my artistic parts which was never really encompassed by my scripts in the first place.

Your scripting has never been in doubt. You by far surpass me in that endeavor. Artistically and socio politically, I will admit that you are doing my head in. But that has always been expressed as a merely personal stand point. Your input has been invaluable as an early way of getting the feel of a map. And fundamentally understanding it as a living system. I get this by making a map from scratch. It takes me a little longer because I am an old thing and set in my ways.

Unfortunately people are dissing whole thing because of these regions and such

NOT THE CASE. Don't do yourself the injustice of throwing the baby out with the bath water. This is a case of skills applied at the point where that skill is most useful. I've already listened to many ideas of yours from the maps and implemented them. Remember the Cat & Lizard issue, we resolved that and came round to your way of thinking BECAUSE IT WAS A GOOD IDEA. Because ALL are not applied does not mean that a good number are not useful, and better than most people can come up with.

The underlying coded generated bit just does the systems, routes, key, title and credits and most of these are editable in the map file and not hard coded. The aim of doing something more interactive was a secondary goal for later

With this you have surpassed all of us. But maybe this could be seen to be too much too soon. If we can debate and evolve things (which you are very much still a part of) then we will come out at the end of the day with a good bedrock that makes sense. You have to admit that you have a habit of trying to provoke a reaction. That may not be the best way of making the basic aspects of this project progress.

Ok, people don't like the regions stuff I did. If you read back I originally did a version of the map with them in only to point out the things I noticed. I was hoping for everyone else's input and got no response

Yeah, your possibly one of the only other people who understands the deafening roar of silence. And although my efforts may be flawed, I would be doing the wider board a disservice if I did not at least proffer an alternative. In starting a discussion it would appear my action has been perceived as starting a fight. Not my intention.

so I put my artistic bits in the main G6 map and also said I would happily remove them. No one has asked me to do so. Maybe I overstepped my mark by putting them in the first place but there you go

The more of this I'm reading the more I feel that this is my fault (hell I thought it was my fault already but there are degrees of faultiness). It can be said that maybe when you came to me with a “quick” solution to the map issue, I should have said “F*** off”. I didn't, and here is where we have ended up as a result. Maybe when map 6 all got a bit colour match, I again, should have been the one to say “Phantor, stop goading a reaction. This is the way we should go about this”. AND Admittedly I have been sending out mixed signals about chairing this production and not being the kind of C**t necessary to demand the respect of being project leader. But then..... I didn't want to, I tried to include as many people as possible. Yeah with hind sight, that didn't seem to have worked too well either.

I was also hoping that Clym would take control again from me as soon as his head round my method but that never happened.

This is the issue, in the absence of comment the mind goes mad. Case in point I thought most people liked your map hence the oblique statement of intent. Is it possible that both our positions are build on assumption after assumption in a vaccum of silence? Eather way I'm perfectly willing to defend my alterations to your chart 6, I hope you would find them logical and well reasoned.

My original aim was to be helpful by doing the parts that were tedious so Clym could get to the interesting part quickly and accurately. Clym if you find my methods an anathama and "sucks every ounce of joy out of map making" and don't want to use it I'm not forcing you

Yes I do. BUT for you this enables active comment on systems and to pick up on the things I have missed, you get the broad brush strokes. Case in point: Map 6 divided down (a touch by popular opinion) on colour. This is the first thing the eye reacts to when presented with the map. By making every small part, I get to see political systems and route connections and from there make informed guesses on what I've seen. Both perspectives have merit. I hope we can combine them, with the way your talking it sounds like you have no wish to. Which would be a pity and a loss to the maps in general.

Well, tonight I will remove my regions stuff and publish my code as is. If Clym or someone else wants to use my code feel free because it looks like I won't be.

DON'T YOU BLOODY DARE! I need your work to give me an over view. If you don't want to be a part of 7 and 8 then that's your choice, but your a big part of this map weather you like it or not. To delete your work would be the act of a coward, and your not one.

Its all your's Clym good luck with it.

Not said without an ounce of flounce, but acceptably so! I would do no less put in your position, and feeling the way you do. It was never all mine, you of all people should know that.

Basically I don't want you to piss off with the hump, you have good ideas. But I will have these 8 charts done to a basic level of sense and logic before I hand it off. Where we go from here is up to you. If it's any consolation I am deeply sorry if I have at any time caused you offense or berated your considerable body of work. This is now your decision.

[Cmdr Wyvern]

I admit, I've not been following this thread too closely. I can make sense of the F6 charts, enough to suit my purposes, so that's what I go by.

Not everyone agrees with every little thing, nor can total agreement be expected. It's just one of things you have to accept. I know that, and I'm a right stubborn bastard at times.
And mistakes, yeah, accept that mistakes can and do happen. Murphy's Law. But even failure can be turned to success; learn from the fail and do better next try.
Bickering like kids don't resolve anything. Cooller heads prevail.

That said, your efforts look pretty keen. Keep it up, dear gents.

[PhantorGorth]

Only 2 people have replied, and they have not said that your work is worthless only that there might be another way of putting it. No attack has been made against you or your work, only my late declaration of intent, and two voices lightly supporting my endeavor.

It true that only 2 people have replied but I would say it was more than lightly supporting. As to the idea of if there is an attack on my work, given that the only region on that map that comes from someone else is the Wild Colonies the rest is all my work so when you say that its dog ugly and needs lots of work after saying to me privately (sorry to do this. I don't like to repeat PMs) that the regions are: "they're good, oh yes but they need a little artistic perzaz!" And then you say you are going back to your old method and not using my code. Followed by two posts saying they agree about the look when I had nothing about that before. It does feel rather like a slap in the face. But then, maybe, I am too sensitive.

You have to admit that you have a habit of trying to provoke a reaction. That may not be the best way of making the basic aspects of this project progress.

I am not a troll but I can be a bit of drama queen I'll admit.

The more of this I'm reading the more I feel that this is my fault (hell I thought it was my fault already but there are degrees of faultiness). It can be said that maybe when you came to me with a “quick” solution to the map issue, I should have said “F*** off”. I didn't, and here is where we have ended up as a result. Maybe when map 6 all got a bit colour match, I again, should have been the one to say “Phantor, stop goading a reaction. This is the way we should go about this”. AND Admittedly I have been sending out mixed signals about chairing this production and not being the kind of C**t necessary to demand the respect of being project leader. But then..... I didn't want to, I tried to include as many people as possible. Yeah with hind sight, that didn't seem to have worked too well either.

I didn't want to take the lead at all. I did that whilst you were catching up on my code. I put my region stuff in as I got nothing from others. I said that was why at the time so people couldn't accuse me of riding roughshod.

I was actually hoping for was for you to use my code to create the base maps and add the artistic bits and get them out with a reduced work load. I was hoping not to lead at all and just work on improvements to the code to get better features and as support. It didn't work out like that.

Map 6 divided down (a touch by popular opinion) on colour. This is the first thing the eye reacts to when presented with the map.

I did think myself that the regions I saw were a visual trick like you describe so I had a look at all the other 7 maps and no it's not. Galaxy 6 is the only one with such a colour clumping. Yes I do agree though that you do need to look at the whole galaxy in detail to see it clearly. This is why I know I would and have found it hard to find stuff for other galaxies. Hence I was hoping for more input from others but with none coming I went with the broadbrush stuff I could see. My mistake.

To delete your work would be the act of a coward, and your not one.

I am not so churlish to delete my work. I was going to create a new version of the map with just the "offending" regions removed and then publish everything including the map data file with all of the regions still included. Nothing would have been lost.

Basically I don't want you to piss off with the hump, you have good ideas. But I will have these 8 charts done to a basic level of sense and logic before I hand it off. Where we go from here is up to you. If it's any consolation I am deeply sorry if I have at any time caused you offense or berated your considerable body of work. This is now your decision.

I accept you didn't want to offend me. I didn't and still don't particularly want to give up on this stuff but I am now hoping for a more combined approach where I do the basic map you lead on the getting the ideas and putting them artistically on the map hand it back to me to put those extra bits in to the data file and output the final map. My input on the method would be minimal, the way it should have always been. But, if you want to do it your previous way I won't complain.

Phantor Gorth

P.S.
I am curious to know why we always end up rubbing each up the wrong way. This isn't the first time.

[zevans]

P.S. I am curious to know why we always end up rubbing each up the wrong way. This isn't the first time.

Because you've never met, you've never even spoken on the phone/Skype, you're from different countries (ie cultural background), and you're both passionate about what you do. (Plus I am guessing English is a second language for at least one of you.) Trust me, this combination always leads to trouble and I don't think it's either of you or anything about the combination in particular, it's just... well... Riedquat is a busy place and things can get lost when shouting over the THUD THUD THUD of the jukebox.

[PhantorGorth]

@zevans: From what I can gather we are both native born English. I am from the East Midlands of typical Anglo-Saxon stock, even though I have been living in Scotland for the last 5 years. As for Clym he's in London and I assume is English from his picture though he will have to speak for himself for us to be sure. This is more of a personality/style clash.

[Lestradae]

It's none of my business, but from what I gather here I would assume that you two would/could get along fine if you agree on who does what first and do it then.

Otherwise, as happened, you will do the same work twice, plus your styles to do something like that are very different, and it will not be clear who is in charge of what.

Question is, if it is important enough for you two to try the tedious task to agree to a framework for this project ...

You two sound completely capable and willing to sort this out with each other

L

[ClymAngus]

still very much a work in progress.

GALAXY6

There are sonme more of Phantor's sectors to add, done a bit of trimming (sectors that didn't link up or had a slew if anarchy systems effectively cutting them in two.

I expanded on the wild coloneys, turning it into the jaws of cerberus. (which in effect cuts off all but one route down to THE ISAANUS SYNDICATE. The central bread basket serves very nicely as our galcentre.

Routes still have to be placed then we'll get that naming thing sorted.

Proper reply on it's way.

[PhantorGorth]

I think I see where you are going. But I have to say I never can get the GalCentre as a concept or a name.

[ClymAngus]

I think I see where you are going. But I have to say I never can get the GalCentre as a concept or a name.

Then we shall think of something better and we shall jolly well change it. It's a legacy title from map 1. I'm all for ditching it if there's a better or more apt one. Why was it called this in the first place? Out of interest?

Galcorp Protectorate sector (whatever) ?
GALCORE

Thoughts?

[Nemoricus]

The incredible segregation between industrial and agricultural worlds in this galaxy is quite remarkable and I think that PhantorGorth's basing regions off of this fact is a good idea. This is the only galaxy so far which has such a split. The others are much more mixed.

[PhantorGorth]

Galcorp Protectorate sector (whatever) ?
GALCORE

Neither are any better. Though the orginal Galcentre is better than that first suggestion. I put Central Agricultural Co-operative only to give it a non-alias style name like "The Bread Basket". I wasn't too happy about that either because of the "Central" bit. I suggest you pick the highest tech world's name and use that or use something random.

BTW your version of the Rimward Industial Sector has four agricultural worlds. Also there is no reason to keep TIINVE, LEDIUS or ARENTE out of the Centreward Industial Sector.

I need to alter my script as from more recent info I am missing more normal routes between worlds. Remember the LEERA systems 17 hub count converstaion earlier in this thread? I think the wiki is right now because I am mising another level of rounding. You have the two missing ones for LEERA on my map but you only have 16. The one you are missing is LEERA to AINLETE.

[PhantorGorth]

The incredible segregation between industrial and agricultural worlds in this galaxy is quite remarkable and I think that PhantorGorth's basing regions off of this fact is a good idea. This is the only galaxy so far which has such a split. The others are much more mixed.

I obviously agree but I seem to have been shot down in flames over that one.

[pmw57]

I think I see where you are going. But I have to say I never can get the GalCentre as a concept or a name.

Then we shall think of something better and we shall jolly well change it. It's a legacy title from map 1. I'm all for ditching it if there's a better or more apt one. Why was it called this in the first place? Out of interest?

Galcorp Protectorate sector (whatever) ?
GALCORE

Thoughts?

I was thinking of a name based on the 8 Corporate States within the region.

The Great Eight
G8 Sector

But what other aspects are involved there?

Which reminds me, do we have anywhere yet - Sector 7G ?

[ClymAngus]

The incredible segregation between industrial and agricultural worlds in this galaxy is quite remarkable and I think that PhantorGorth's basing regions off of this fact is a good idea. This is the only galaxy so far which has such a split. The others are much more mixed.

True, but then social groupings don't tend to devide themselves along produce lines do they? Usually for a self subsisting group to exist, different skills and a balance needs to be brought to the table. Local markets breed local groups.

I also find it a little odd how a group could exist that has no direct link to itself. Then there is the matter of Dead Diplomats. Some of the regions shrank a little due to the unfortunate number of A systems and F systems that would have made communication "difficult".

Of course if there is any point at which I have fallen down here I would delight in debating the matter. Give me an example and we shall discuss it at considerable length.

I've tried to look a little closer than the randomly fruitful nature of the soil in these worlds. They do provide a striking basis for a power base but there are several other influencing factors that would alter the RAW nature of this map.

But please assail me, challenge me. Through discussion we find truth.