Ship turrets & energy

An area for discussing new ideas and additions to Oolite.

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Svengali
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Post by Svengali »

ClymAngus wrote:
With the greatest of respect. (Funnily enough I don't particularly like the idea of a tit for tat flame war with smart people).
Yupp. You're right. (And not that we both wouldn't have a bit fun with teasing, even if you've got an advantage .-))
ClymAngus wrote:
I think both are valid and individual players should have the choice of how highly the odds should be stacked for and against them. Player turrets are a very small part of that.
Absolutely right. Players choice. But Clym, you as oxper, can you imagine a situation with all oxps working together without pushing each other to the end of the food chain? Wouldn't it be great?

And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the turreted ships or ships with higher stats are bad. I only said that changing one thing without all other things is a problematic way. So we have to think about it, at least a minute or so (hehehe). I'm pretty sure that you and Wyvern have spent endless hours with testing, changing, tweaking -> successful = nice ships :-)
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Post by Screet »

Kaks wrote:
I don't recall reading about that patch, but I hope it doesn't stop kamikazes completely. I do like them crazy dudes! :)
It does not stop them completely but it does drastically reduce them on my system.

Very fast ships (speed over 500) might still suffer as the enemies now often turn away in the very last second.

I don't understand why I had to use such immensely higher distances with such a little result visually.

In universe.h I now use these updated definitions:

Code: Select all

#define PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE 200.0
#define PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE2 350.0
#define PROXIMITY_AVOID_DISTANCE 175.0
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Post by another_commander »

Screet: PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE and PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE2 are not meant to be arbitrary values. Unless I am reading it incorrectly throughout the code, the PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE2 is supposed to be the square of PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE. Nothing is stopping you from using arbitrary values, of course, but it's not how it is meant to be and using random values might confuse people who read the code and expect the above relationship between the two constants.
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JensAyton
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Post by JensAyton »

Another_commander is quite right. In fact, PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE itself is never used, so what you have there is an effective PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE of √350 ≈ 18.7. (The reason for this is that finding the square of the distance between two points is much cheaper than finding the actual distance, so comparing squares is usually desirable.) A reasonable change might be:

Code: Select all

#define PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE 20
#define PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE2 (PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE * PROXIMITY_WARN_DISTANCE)
Also note that PROXIMITY_AVOID_DISTANCE is not actually a distance, it’s a factor. When attempting to avoid a collision, a ship sets desired_range to PROXIMITY_AVOID_DISTANCE times the collision radius of the proximate ship.
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Post by ClymAngus »

Svengali wrote:
Absolutely right. Players choice. But Clym, you as oxper, can you imagine a situation with all oxps working together without pushing each other to the end of the food chain? Wouldn't it be great?
well it depends how you see the oxps and how they should be used. Sure certain oxp's are going to effect the relative effectiveness of other oxps. This is seen in the ship vs mission areas specifically.

But a player may like that. It may enhance their enjoyment of the game. Sure I'm all for a game balance warning on certain oxps (although only the caddy really deserves one, and then only just). That way if people really want to suffer they don't have to add it to their game.

That said I think ALL OXP's should have this. Not just the ones that make things a little easier or have been balanced but the ones that make life MORE difficult too. The Merlin springs to mind. It's when you CHANGE an oxp then your getting into dodgy ground. Sure let people make an informed choice, but actively restricting the world to YOUR view of a good game. Well, that's a little presumptive in my view.

Technically adding anything alters the game and whilst broad descriptive brush strokes can be applied as to wether they help or hinder the player. Playability will always be in the hands of the individual player.

I can only repeat what I said earlier. Make it if you want to but don't force the change on people if they don't want it.
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Eric Walch
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Post by Eric Walch »

Screet wrote:
Kaks wrote:
I don't recall reading about that patch, but I hope it doesn't stop kamikazes completely. I do like them crazy dudes! :)
It does not stop them completely but it does drastically reduce them on my system.

Very fast ships (speed over 500) might still suffer as the enemies now often turn away in the very last second.
Or to be ore accurately: they turn away when within 3.5% of their weapon range or when within collision avoidance distance. 3.5% of a pulse laser range is about 440 meter. (With a speed of 500 that is within the last second).
I the current trunk version ships slow down a bit faster than before when reducing injector speed. So maybe they have more chance to avoid a collision when in injector approach. (Mainly kraits in my experience)

I must note that according the code we have no kamikaze pilots. We only have pilots that decide to late, that they must turn around. The effect is the same, but the first makes them heroes while the second defines them as losers.
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Post by Diziet Sma »

Eric Walch wrote:
So maybe they have more chance to avoid a collision when in injector approach. (Mainly kraits in my experience)

I must note that according the code we have no kamikaze pilots. We only have pilots that decide to late, that they must turn around. The effect is the same, but the first makes them heroes while the second defines them as losers.
Injector approach? Decide to turn too late?

I don't know if that's how I'd describe it.. what I see is more like high-speed attack-run passes going by at very close range, during dogfight style combat.. usually they miss, occasionally they don't and we both go BOOM instead..
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied
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Post by Screet »

Diziet Sma wrote:
I don't know if that's how I'd describe it.. what I see is more like high-speed attack-run passes going by at very close range, during dogfight style combat.. usually they miss, occasionally they don't and we both go BOOM instead..
Sometimes, after I begin to turn away, they don't try to avoid collision but adjust their course to ensure a collision.

Thargoids also seem to be fond of ramming...

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Post by Thargoid »

Possibly a combination of either inappropriately large speed or inappropriately small pitch/roll/yaw shipdata values causing a Hitchhiker's moment?
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Post by Screet »

Thargoid wrote:
Possibly a combination of either inappropriately large speed or inappropriately small pitch/roll/yaw shipdata values causing a Hitchhiker's moment?
Well, it does fit them to act that way, as their ships usually survive the collision (unless they did target a space bar).

It's a horrible sight to see them simply fly through enemy ships...

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Post by CptnEcho »

I'm a player with Galactic Navy and Thargoid Threat OXP's installed. I've encountered turreted ships.

In my experience....

At close range, a large ship can use its multiple turrets to make short work of any ship that stays within range and within the firing arcs of the large ship. The more turrets available, the more effective the large ship is.

Players may learn to avoid close range encounters with hostile turreted ships.
I've not tested how well A.I.'s behave, but from what I've read in this topic thread, they don't change their tactics (but they do attempt to flee when their energy levels fall below a threshold).

In fleet battles with large ships on both sides, it doesn't take long for small craft to be eliminated. Cobras, Asps, Vipers and similarly sized A.I. ships are soon vaporized. Only capitol ships last a while.
Large Naval vessels weaknesses are the gaps in their firing arcs.
Thargoid ships fire omnidirectionally and don't have turrets.

The Military Laser is nice in a one-on-one dogfight. In fleet battles it quickly overheats and takes precious time to cool. This laser isn't an uber weapon in my opinion. It has limitations (cooling time & energy usage).

Are turrets an uber weapon? No, I don't think so. Their limited effective range has been mentioned. But I do think they should draw energy somehow.

As Oolite is a game with the flexibility to allow players to decicde what their gaming environment should be like, this could be left up to player programming abilities, or programming switches could be made so that a player could set parameters for turret usage via a menu screen.

I suggest writing or modifying an OXP to enable players to control turret characteristics in a menu screen.

I also suggest players be able to set their turret fire modes while flying their ship for the following options:
~ automatic (fires according to a targeting priority previously set in a menu),
~ linked fire (fires when a player fires a selected laser and in the same direction),
~ fires at a player designated target (self explanatory)
~On/Off (turns on/off turret fire at player discretion)
~"Other" (some option I've not thought of yet)

Sincerely,
CptnEcho
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Post by Kaks »

On the flip side, all the extra coding this all requires, makes changes to the turrets seem a very remote possibility, at least for the current decade...
Hey, free OXPs: farsun v1.05 & tty v0.5! :0)
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Post by Cmdr Wyvern »

CptnEcho wrote:
~ linked fire (fires when a player fires a selected laser and in the same direction),
This one simply isn't a doable in many cases.

Examples:
Only the Kirin XM is actually fully capable of this option; it's turrets have a broad coverage.
This option would work only for the side-mounted lasers of the Xarik and Caddy Omega.
And the Dragon? Fugetaboutit. The turreted Dragons can only mount a laser foreward. They replace the aft laser mount with a turret placement, and don't have side mounts.
The Griff Boa also only mounts a laser foreward. Turret placements cover it's sides and aft.

We seem to be forgetting the use of turrets as a missile/torpedo countermeasure. Turrets work fairly well as point-defense, though they don't stop every incoming missile. NPCs seem to use turrets a bit better in that regard.
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Post by CptnEcho »

Cmdr Wyvern wrote:
We seem to be forgetting the use of turrets as a missile/torpedo countermeasure.
Turret fire causes damage to every object/ship/asteroid/etc. in Oolite. It has uses beyond the original intended usages.

Turrets can do whatever a player or an A.I. can do with them.
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Re: ..

Post by Commander McLane »

Lestradae wrote:
The original, vanilla Oolite lets players start in a ship that is completely uber:

A player Cobra Mk III ...
I disagree here. The Cobra Mk III is a decent ship, no question. But it's not uber. And of the four reasons you give for it being uber, three are plain wrong:
* has shields (NPCs have not, so always die first in a comparable situation)
NPCs have energy, which is technically the same. (And by the way: this problem isn't solved at all by adding new player ships with even more energy.)
* the option to use injectors long enough for half the distance witchpoint - main station (NPCs have not, so you can always escape if careful on the fuel)
"NPCs have not"? What? Of course NPCs can use their injectors as well as the player can, and for the same distance. In fact, I have often pursued an NPC for an equivalent of half the distance wp-station. Whoever runs out of fuel first, loses. And in most cases that's me, because I have not started with full tanks (I had to jump into the system first), while the NPC had a full 7LY worth of fuel to begin with.
* torus drive (NPCs don't have it, so pirates, even in much faster ships, will never get you once you left scanner range and hit "j")
That's the only valid point. However, I've always considered the Torus Drive to be a time acceleration feature, nothing else. But of course, you can use it to get out of a danger zone, if the NPC pursuing you with its injectors lets you get far enough away in the first place, that is.
* can witchspace out (NPCs ... you know the drill. They just don't do it.)
While the standard combat AIs indeed don't make NPCs try to hyper out of a battle (however, it would be very easy to modify the AIs to make them do it), I think there is a reason to it: Hyperspacing out needs 15 seconds of countdown, and during that time the ship is basically a sitting duck. Therefore in many (most?) cases the risk of being killed before the jump starts outweighs the chances of escape.

By the way: Many of the technical advantages of having a decent ship are already balanced by the numbers. As player you always fight alone, but your adversaries (pirates) usually come in packs. I remember well from the days of C64 (and later Atari-) Elite, that I used to be frightened by the sight of three or four pirates (one of them in a ship faster than mine) plus a Thargoid chasing after me. The fight was survivable, but barely so.

Anyway, my main argument is: if the Cobbie III were totally uber in the native Oolite environment, all installations of Elite previous to Oolite would have been boring and non-challenging for the player. I guess it is fair to say that they weren't. Which in return means that the Cobra Mk III, while being a decent ship, is not uber in comparison to the rest of the original shipset.
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