Join us at the Oolite Anniversary Party -- London, 7th July 2024, 1pm
More details in this thread.

Flashing OOlite Screen (solved)

For test results, bug reports, announcements of new builds etc.

Moderators: winston, another_commander, Getafix

Chrisfs
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:24 am
Location: California

Flashing OOlite Screen (solved)

Post by Chrisfs »

Hi,

I played Elite about 20 years ago. I am very happy to find oolite but am having troubles. Troubles may stem that I am a linux noob as well.

1.65 seems to work fine on my stem, but when I run 1.73.3 I get the small credit screen and then the initial screen of the game flashes quickly and then that window goes completely black and nothing works. I can't close the window, by clicking on the close window area on the top right on the window, I can't close it by right clicking on the tab at the botton and choosing close. Neither works. I have to go to System Monitor and stop the process from there.

I am on Ubuntu 9.04, I have 1 gig of Ram, a 2.8 ghz Pentium 4 processor. I don;t know what kind of graphics card I have (if necessary how can I find that out ?)

Any Ideas ?
Last edited by Chrisfs on Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
JensAyton
Grand Admiral Emeritus
Grand Admiral Emeritus
Posts: 6657
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by JensAyton »

Please post the log. This may provide information about the context of the crash, and will also tell us about your graphics hardware.
Chrisfs
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:24 am
Location: California

lastest log

Post by Chrisfs »

OOLogging internal - Inited: ***** ERROR: OOLoggingInit() has not been called.
[log.header]: Opening log for Oolite version 1.73.3 (x86-32 test release) under Linux at 2009-09-20 18:21:17 +0000.
1 processor detected.
Oolite Options: [Procedural Planets] [Docking Clearance] [Wormhole Scanner] [Target Incoming Missiles]

Note that the contents of the log file can be adjusted by editing logcontrol.plist.

[joystickHandler.init]: Number of joysticks detected: 0
[display.mode.list.native]: X11 native resolution detected: 1280 x 1024
[rendering.opengl.version]: OpenGL renderer version: 2.1.0 ("2.1 Mesa 7.4")
Vendor: Mesa Project
Renderer: Software Rasterizer
[rendering.opengl.extensions]: OpenGL extensions (117):
GL_ARB_depth_texture GL_ARB_draw_buffers GL_ARB_fragment_program GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow GL_ARB_fragment_shader GL_ARB_half_float_pixel GL_ARB_imaging GL_ARB_multisample GL_ARB_multitexture GL_ARB_occlusion_query GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object GL_ARB_point_parameters GL_ARB_point_sprite GL_ARB_shader_objects GL_ARB_shading_language_100 GL_ARB_shading_language_120 GL_ARB_shadow GL_ARB_shadow_ambient GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp GL_ARB_texture_compression GL_ARB_texture_cube_map GL_ARB_texture_env_add GL_ARB_texture_env_combine GL_ARB_texture_env_crossbar GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3 GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two GL_ARB_texture_rectangle GL_ARB_transpose_matrix GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object GL_ARB_vertex_program GL_ARB_vertex_shader GL_ARB_window_pos GL_EXT_abgr GL_EXT_bgra GL_EXT_blend_color GL_EXT_blend_equation_separate GL_EXT_blend_func_separate GL_EXT_blend_logic_op GL_EXT_blend_minmax GL_EXT_blend_subtract GL_EXT_clip_volume_hint GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array GL_EXT_convolution GL_EXT_copy_texture GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test GL_EXT_draw_range_elements GL_EXT_framebuffer_object GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit GL_EXT_fog_coord GL_EXT_gpu_program_parameters GL_EXT_histogram GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil GL_EXT_packed_pixels GL_EXT_paletted_texture GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object GL_EXT_point_parameters GL_EXT_polygon_offset GL_EXT_rescale_normal GL_EXT_secondary_color GL_EXT_separate_specular_color GL_EXT_shadow_funcs GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette GL_EXT_stencil_two_side GL_EXT_stencil_wrap GL_EXT_subtexture GL_EXT_texture GL_EXT_texture3D GL_EXT_texture_edge_clamp GL_EXT_texture_env_add GL_EXT_texture_env_combine GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3 GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias GL_EXT_texture_mirror_clamp GL_EXT_texture_object GL_EXT_texture_rectangle GL_EXT_texture_sRGB GL_EXT_vertex_array GL_3DFX_texture_compression_FXT1 GL_APPLE_packed_pixels GL_APPLE_vertex_array_object GL_ATI_blend_equation_separate GL_ATI_texture_env_combine3 GL_ATI_texture_mirror_once GL_ATI_fragment_shader GL_ATI_separate_stencil GL_IBM_multimode_draw_arrays GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip GL_IBM_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_INGR_blend_func_separate GL_MESA_pack_invert GL_MESA_program_debug GL_MESA_resize_buffers GL_MESA_texture_array GL_MESA_ycbcr_texture GL_MESA_window_pos GL_NV_blend_square GL_NV_fragment_program GL_NV_light_max_exponent GL_NV_point_sprite GL_NV_texture_rectangle GL_NV_texgen_reflection GL_NV_vertex_program GL_NV_vertex_program1_1 GL_OES_read_format GL_SGI_color_matrix GL_SGI_color_table GL_SGI_texture_color_table GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap GL_SGIS_texture_border_clamp GL_SGIS_texture_edge_clamp GL_SGIS_texture_lod GL_SGIX_depth_texture GL_SGIX_shadow GL_SGIX_shadow_ambient GL_SUN_multi_draw_arrays
[dataCache.notFound]: No data cache found, starting from scratch.
[searchPaths.dumpAll]: ---> OXP search paths:
("/usr/lib/Oolite/oolite.app/Resources", AddOns, "/home/chris/.Oolite/AddOns", "AddOns/Fuel Station 1.23.oxp", AddOns/BlackMonks.oxp, AddOns/interstellar_help.oxp, AddOns/BountyScannerv1.061.oxp, "AddOns/FTZ v0.13.oxp")
[shipData.load.begin]: Loading ship data...
[script.load.world.listAll]: Loaded 10 world scripts: "black_monks", "Bounty Scanner" 1.061, "free-trade-zone", "FuelStation-Setup" 1.21, "interstellar_help" 2.0, "oolite-cloaking-device" 1.73.3, "oolite-constrictor-hunt" 1.73.3, "oolite-nova" 1.73.3, "oolite-thargoid-plans" 1.73.3, "oolite-trumbles" 1.73.3
[gameController.exitApp]: .GNUstepDefaults synchronized.

Closing log at 2009-09-20 18:22:29 +0000.
User avatar
Micha
Commodore
Commodore
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Post by Micha »

Ok, the main problem seems to be that you're running the "Software Rasterizer" - this means that your graphics is not being hardware accelarated.

If you use the "Hardware Manager" in Ubuntu, you may be able to turn on what are called 'restricted drivers' for your graphics card. If so, they will enable 3d accelaration.

Nevertheless, it 'ought' to work, even if slowly.
Did you completely uninstall 1.65 before installing 1.73? Also, how did you install 1.73 - through the 'autopackage' or using the Ubuntu packages?
The glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
User avatar
JensAyton
Grand Admiral Emeritus
Grand Admiral Emeritus
Posts: 6657
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by JensAyton »

Quite possibly the same software rendering problem as we’ve been seeing on Windows. If so, a build from the current maintenance branch should fix it (and we’ll need a 1.73.4 release next week).
Chrisfs
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:24 am
Location: California

halfway there

Post by Chrisfs »

Ok, I used Hardware Drivers in Ubuntu to activate the Nvdia accerlated graphics driver.
I had uninstalled and reinstalled oolite using the autopackage (not the package manager that comes with Ubuntu).

Now I get music (yeah!) , and instead of a consistently black screen, I get a black screen with half second flashes of the opening screen (asking load commander y/n) flickering intermittently 1-5 second pauses in between. And I can close it by clicking on the top right corner of the window.

I have to go for the day, but will happily try fixes tonight.tomorrow a million thanks for your help

New log

OOLogging internal - Inited: ***** ERROR: OOLoggingInit() has not been called.
[log.header]: Opening log for Oolite version 1.73.3 (x86-32 test release) under Linux at 2009-09-20 19:26:28 +0000.
1 processor detected.
Oolite Options: [Procedural Planets] [Docking Clearance] [Wormhole Scanner] [Target Incoming Missiles]

Note that the contents of the log file can be adjusted by editing logcontrol.plist.

[joystickHandler.init]: Number of joysticks detected: 0
[display.mode.list.native]: X11 native resolution detected: 1280 x 1024
[rendering.opengl.version]: OpenGL renderer version: 2.1.2 ("2.1.2 NVIDIA 173.14.16")
Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Renderer: GeForce FX 5600/AGP/SSE2
[rendering.opengl.extensions]: OpenGL extensions (112):
GL_ARB_depth_texture GL_ARB_fragment_program GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow GL_ARB_fragment_shader GL_ARB_half_float_pixel GL_ARB_imaging GL_ARB_multisample GL_ARB_multitexture GL_ARB_occlusion_query GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object GL_ARB_point_parameters GL_ARB_point_sprite GL_ARB_shadow GL_ARB_shader_objects GL_ARB_shading_language_100 GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp GL_ARB_texture_compression GL_ARB_texture_cube_map GL_ARB_texture_env_add GL_ARB_texture_env_combine GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3 GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_ARB_texture_rectangle GL_ARB_transpose_matrix GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object GL_ARB_vertex_program GL_ARB_vertex_shader GL_ARB_window_pos GL_S3_s3tc GL_EXT_texture_env_add GL_EXT_abgr GL_EXT_bgra GL_EXT_blend_color GL_EXT_blend_func_separate GL_EXT_blend_minmax GL_EXT_blend_subtract GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array GL_EXT_Cg_shader GL_EXT_draw_range_elements GL_EXT_fog_coord GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample GL_EXT_framebuffer_object GL_EXT_gpu_program_parameters GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil GL_EXT_packed_pixels GL_EXT_paletted_texture GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object GL_EXT_point_parameters GL_EXT_rescale_normal GL_EXT_secondary_color GL_EXT_separate_specular_color GL_EXT_shadow_funcs GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette GL_EXT_stencil_two_side GL_EXT_stencil_wrap GL_EXT_texture3D GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc GL_EXT_texture_cube_map GL_EXT_texture_edge_clamp GL_EXT_texture_env_combine GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3 GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic GL_EXT_texture_lod GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias GL_EXT_texture_object GL_EXT_texture_sRGB GL_EXT_timer_query GL_EXT_vertex_array GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip GL_IBM_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_KTX_buffer_region GL_NV_blend_square GL_NV_copy_depth_to_color GL_NV_depth_clamp GL_NV_fence GL_NV_float_buffer GL_NV_fog_distance GL_NV_fragment_program GL_NV_fragment_program_option GL_NV_framebuffer_multisample_coverage GL_NV_half_float GL_NV_light_max_exponent GL_NV_multisample_filter_hint GL_NV_occlusion_query GL_NV_packed_depth_stencil GL_NV_pixel_data_range GL_NV_point_sprite GL_NV_primitive_restart GL_NV_register_combiners GL_NV_register_combiners2 GL_NV_texgen_reflection GL_NV_texture_compression_vtc GL_NV_texture_env_combine4 GL_NV_texture_expand_normal GL_NV_texture_rectangle GL_NV_texture_shader GL_NV_texture_shader2 GL_NV_texture_shader3 GL_NV_vertex_array_range GL_NV_vertex_array_range2 GL_NV_vertex_program GL_NV_vertex_program1_1 GL_NV_vertex_program2 GL_NV_vertex_program2_option GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap GL_SGIS_texture_lod GL_SGIX_depth_texture GL_SGIX_shadow GL_SUN_slice_accum
[searchPaths.dumpAll]: ---> OXP search paths:
("/usr/lib/Oolite/oolite.app/Resources", AddOns, "/home/chris/.Oolite/AddOns", "AddOns/Fuel Station 1.23.oxp", AddOns/BlackMonks.oxp, AddOns/interstellar_help.oxp, AddOns/BountyScannerv1.061.oxp, "AddOns/FTZ v0.13.oxp")
[dataCache.upToDate]: Data cache is up to date.
[script.load.world.listAll]: Loaded 10 world scripts: "black_monks", "Bounty Scanner" 1.061, "free-trade-zone", "FuelStation-Setup" 1.21, "interstellar_help" 2.0, "oolite-cloaking-device" 1.73.3, "oolite-constrictor-hunt" 1.73.3, "oolite-nova" 1.73.3, "oolite-thargoid-plans" 1.73.3, "oolite-trumbles" 1.73.3
[dataCache.willWrite]: About to write data cache.
[dataCache.write.success]: Wrote data cache.
[gameController.exitApp]: .GNUstepDefaults synchronized.

Closing log at 2009-09-20 19:27:15 +0000.
User avatar
Svengali
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2370
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: halfway there

Post by Svengali »

Code: Select all

OOLogging internal - Inited: ***** ERROR: OOLoggingInit() has not been called.
What is this. I've seen this now the second time in posted logs... Is it a Linux-specific problem?
User avatar
JensAyton
Grand Admiral Emeritus
Grand Admiral Emeritus
Posts: 6657
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: halfway there

Post by JensAyton »

Svengali wrote:

Code: Select all

OOLogging internal - Inited: ***** ERROR: OOLoggingInit() has not been called.
What is this. I've seen this now the second time in posted logs... Is it a Linux-specific problem?
It’s a minor issue that isn’t affecting any graphics problems. :-)
User avatar
Svengali
Commander
Commander
Posts: 2370
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: halfway there

Post by Svengali »

Ahruman wrote:
It’s a minor issue that isn’t affecting any graphics problems. :-)
:-) I'm not surprised, but does it mean that it is platform independent? You're completely right - it's OT. I'm only trying to understand a bit better to be prepared...
User avatar
Diziet Sma
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 6311
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:20 pm
Location: Aboard the Pitviper S.E. "Blackwidow"

Post by Diziet Sma »

Ahruman wrote:
Quite possibly the same software rendering problem as we’ve been seeing on Windows. If so, a build from the current maintenance branch should fix it (and we’ll need a 1.73.4 release next week).
Just a note to say, don't forget to add the fix for the quantum cargo bay (r2547) to the maintenance branch also :)
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied
another_commander
Quite Grand Sub-Admiral
Quite Grand Sub-Admiral
Posts: 6570
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:54 am

Post by another_commander »

Diziet Sma wrote:
Ahruman wrote:
Quite possibly the same software rendering problem as we’ve been seeing on Windows. If so, a build from the current maintenance branch should fix it (and we’ll need a 1.73.4 release next week).
Just a note to say, don't forget to add the fix for the quantum cargo bay (r2547) to the maintenance branch also :)
It's already done. Every fix by default goes to maintenance.
User avatar
Diziet Sma
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 6311
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:20 pm
Location: Aboard the Pitviper S.E. "Blackwidow"

Post by Diziet Sma »

:oops: :oops:
Chrisfs
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:24 am
Location: California

1.73.4 still has problems

Post by Chrisfs »

1.73.4 still has same problem, installed with autoloader

log
OOLogging internal - Inited: ***** ERROR: OOLoggingInit() has not been called.
[log.header]: Opening log for Oolite version 1.73.4 (x86-32 test release) under Linux at 2009-09-25 08:50:39 +0000.
1 processor detected.
Oolite Options: [Procedural Planets] [Docking Clearance] [Wormhole Scanner] [Target Incoming Missiles]

Note that the contents of the log file can be adjusted by editing logcontrol.plist.

[joystickHandler.init]: Number of joysticks detected: 0
[display.mode.list.native]: X11 native resolution detected: 1280 x 1024
[rendering.opengl.version]: OpenGL renderer version: 2.1.2 ("2.1.2 NVIDIA 173.14.16")
Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Renderer: GeForce FX 5600/AGP/SSE2
[rendering.opengl.extensions]: OpenGL extensions (112):
GL_ARB_depth_texture GL_ARB_fragment_program GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow GL_ARB_fragment_shader GL_ARB_half_float_pixel GL_ARB_imaging GL_ARB_multisample GL_ARB_multitexture GL_ARB_occlusion_query GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object GL_ARB_point_parameters GL_ARB_point_sprite GL_ARB_shadow GL_ARB_shader_objects GL_ARB_shading_language_100 GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp GL_ARB_texture_compression GL_ARB_texture_cube_map GL_ARB_texture_env_add GL_ARB_texture_env_combine GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3 GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_ARB_texture_rectangle GL_ARB_transpose_matrix GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object GL_ARB_vertex_program GL_ARB_vertex_shader GL_ARB_window_pos GL_S3_s3tc GL_EXT_texture_env_add GL_EXT_abgr GL_EXT_bgra GL_EXT_blend_color GL_EXT_blend_func_separate GL_EXT_blend_minmax GL_EXT_blend_subtract GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array GL_EXT_Cg_shader GL_EXT_draw_range_elements GL_EXT_fog_coord GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample GL_EXT_framebuffer_object GL_EXT_gpu_program_parameters GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil GL_EXT_packed_pixels GL_EXT_paletted_texture GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object GL_EXT_point_parameters GL_EXT_rescale_normal GL_EXT_secondary_color GL_EXT_separate_specular_color GL_EXT_shadow_funcs GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette GL_EXT_stencil_two_side GL_EXT_stencil_wrap GL_EXT_texture3D GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc GL_EXT_texture_cube_map GL_EXT_texture_edge_clamp GL_EXT_texture_env_combine GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3 GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic GL_EXT_texture_lod GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias GL_EXT_texture_object GL_EXT_texture_sRGB GL_EXT_timer_query GL_EXT_vertex_array GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip GL_IBM_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_KTX_buffer_region GL_NV_blend_square GL_NV_copy_depth_to_color GL_NV_depth_clamp GL_NV_fence GL_NV_float_buffer GL_NV_fog_distance GL_NV_fragment_program GL_NV_fragment_program_option GL_NV_framebuffer_multisample_coverage GL_NV_half_float GL_NV_light_max_exponent GL_NV_multisample_filter_hint GL_NV_occlusion_query GL_NV_packed_depth_stencil GL_NV_pixel_data_range GL_NV_point_sprite GL_NV_primitive_restart GL_NV_register_combiners GL_NV_register_combiners2 GL_NV_texgen_reflection GL_NV_texture_compression_vtc GL_NV_texture_env_combine4 GL_NV_texture_expand_normal GL_NV_texture_rectangle GL_NV_texture_shader GL_NV_texture_shader2 GL_NV_texture_shader3 GL_NV_vertex_array_range GL_NV_vertex_array_range2 GL_NV_vertex_program GL_NV_vertex_program1_1 GL_NV_vertex_program2 GL_NV_vertex_program2_option GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap GL_SGIS_texture_lod GL_SGIX_depth_texture GL_SGIX_shadow GL_SUN_slice_accum
[dataCache.rebuild]: Data cache version (1.73.3) does not match Oolite version (1.73.4), rebuilding cache.
[searchPaths.dumpAll]: ---> OXP search paths:
("/usr/lib/Oolite/oolite.app/Resources", AddOns, "/home/chris/.Oolite/AddOns", "AddOns/Fuel Station 1.23.oxp", AddOns/BlackMonks.oxp, AddOns/Keychanges.oxp, AddOns/interstellar_help.oxp, AddOns/BountyScannerv1.061.oxp, "AddOns/FTZ v0.13.oxp")
[shipData.load.begin]: Loading ship data...
[script.load.world.listAll]: Loaded 10 world scripts: "black_monks", "Bounty Scanner" 1.061, "free-trade-zone", "FuelStation-Setup" 1.21, "interstellar_help" 2.0, "oolite-cloaking-device" 1.73.4, "oolite-constrictor-hunt" 1.73.4, "oolite-nova" 1.73.4, "oolite-thargoid-plans" 1.73.4, "oolite-trumbles" 1.73.4
[dataCache.willWrite]: About to write data cache.
[dataCache.write.success]: Wrote data cache.
[gameController.exitApp]: .GNUstepDefaults synchronized.

Closing log at 2009-09-25 08:51:29 +0000.
User avatar
JensAyton
Grand Admiral Emeritus
Grand Admiral Emeritus
Posts: 6657
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by JensAyton »

Hmm. A black screen and nothing working is consistent with an exception during rendering (which has been fixed in trunk and maintenance now, but not in 1.73.4), but that should show up in the log.

On a side note, "***** ERROR: OOLoggingInit() has not been called" should now also be fixed.
User avatar
Micha
Commodore
Commodore
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Post by Micha »

Just a suggestion, but could you try the Ubuntu packaged (.deb) version instead of the autopackaged version and see if they work better? The autopackaged version is not compiled on jaunty (I think it's compiled on intrepid) and includes some older versions of libraries which don't always play nice.

http://debs.oolite.org/ for the downloads.

Just remember to completely uninstall the autopackaged version first. There have also been reports that the uninstaller leaves some files in /usr/lib/oolite, so check for that and remove if necessary.

Finally, any testing you do should initially be without any OXPs installed. If plain Oolite works, then slowly add OXPs in one at a time until either everything is running fine, or you get a problem.

[edit]PS. Just on that flickering screen problem, I've seen that in a virtual machine before; resizing the window fixed it in my case.[/edit]
Last edited by Micha on Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
Post Reply