Ship Rationalisation / Balancing Project

[Cmdr James]

I think this approach is wrong. We should be looking at what makes for a good, fun, balanced game, not what closely matches the reality of space ship evolution.

For what its worth, I think that in the elite universe it is pretty clear what the "current" technology can produce, and we have some backstory related to for example, development of different cobra models (I, II, III). There is some debate about the ooniverse and its relation to the elite universe, but I think its a useful reference point either way. We also, for those who seek Canon, have frontier to show the next iteration of ship design.

[Disembodied]

I think this approach is wrong. We should be looking at what makes for a good, fun, balanced game, not what closely matches the reality of space ship evolution.

I agree absolutely. We can devise rationales to explain whatever system we like, after we've picked what makes the best game.

Canon-wise, Frontier shows the development of ship design – but it also shows a regression of technology, from the non-Newtonian, fuel-free in-system engines (not to mention the Torus jumpdrive) all the way back down to reaction rockets ...

[overmage]

4) While we're not quite there yet, some of the more potent OXP ships are wandering towards being the best all round ship of all types. I'm not even pointing at the more recent OXPs here (the Kirins and the Caduceus's), but some older OXP ships that are decidedly suspect. These ships are probably, to my mind, the start of the path towards the space dominating uber ships.

Like the Supercobra?

If the shipyard-type OXPs do not modify the stats, I feel that that should be fine. Les has repeatedly mentioned that none of the ships in his OXPs have tweaked stats...

Now well I feel like drawing a parallel between this debate and American politics. Liberals and Conservatives, and those who walk the fine line in between. It's very similar, you are never going to get an absolute answer on who is 'right' or 'better'. Unfortunately. (progression vs balance)

[Sendraks]

I think this approach is wrong. We should be looking at what makes for a good, fun, balanced game, not what closely matches the reality of space ship evolution.

Agree, I was going to put in earlier post that mirroring how things work in "reality TM" don't necessarily make for a fun game. Space combat in Frontier with its newtonian physics is proof enough of that for me.

We also, for those who seek Canon, have frontier to show the next iteration of ship design.

While I think there are some good ideas in Frontier, I'd be cautious of treating is canon, given the fundamentally different workings of the game. In Frontier, the only ships with greater accelration than the Cobra MKIII are smaller vessels by varying degrees.

The Imp Courier is a larger vessel than the Cobby and in Frontier terms that means bigger guns and more shielding. The Oolite Imp Courier is basically the Cobby MKIIIs speed and handling in a vessel that is larger and tougher. Whether this design decision was taken to reflect the lack of larger weapons than the Mil Laser or other Frontier aspects, I don't know, but the design ethos of Frontier isn't there: bigger vessels are slower, but tougher.

That doesn't mean that I agree entirely with the Frontier design model (after all it leaves no scope for smaller tough fighter vessels like the Wolf MKII) and as Disembodied says, some of the technology in those games is regressive. I think the gaming design models are sufficiently different to not really regard Frontier as true historical canon for Elite.

Polyph - very good point in your post, I have a few comments to make, but don't have time know, but I will come back to you.

[zevans]

The cars might be a little faster, more fuel efficient, handle a little better, be a little safer, a little more comfy, but they don't have much more space if any (my dad grumbles that he had to buy a smaller dog box to fit in his new turbo volvo).

Ah, but we are back to cost there. We could have massively better cars, but we don't, we have slightly better cars at a MUCH lower cost in real terms. The consumer has spoken!

The long and the short of it is that today's modern Volvos do not perform like a 1980s sports car and have the carrying capacity of a transit van.

Unless it's a T5 estate of course...

The other limit is on handling. If you build something with the internal space of a Transit it's necessarily quite a long vehicle, quite high, and quite heavy. Therefore, a high polar moment, high centre of gravity, and high inertia, therefore, unspectacular handling.

You can make a car that laps the Ring in 8 minutes something AND fits all the kids and a dog in, for instance, the Audi RS6 Avant. But many people say it's not that much fun to drive and you should have a Caterham instead. So even in the car market, the gameplay element is more important than internal consistency, or uber-factor of car.

(say a 1990s ford mondeo and a mondeo in 2010) are relatively minor in overall performance.

But not minor in price/performance - and as we now learn, a lot of the potential savings from the improvements in technology and engineering have not gone into the car, but rather have gone into hiding massive inefficiencies in the companies that make them. So the cars could have been much better if anyone could have been arsed and did not instead have their eye on their next bonus.

[Wolfwood]

How the heck did this turn into a discussion of present day technology development?

The only thing that matters is that Cobra III is a 60yo craft and it is still described in favourable terms in Elite universe. This tells us a lot about the rate that technology is developing in Eliteverse. In my mind, this should also be the state of affairs in Ooniverse - or at least close to it.

I think we have excellent examples of tech in Oolite if we take a look at the base ships and compare them to some of the early Navy ships (NPC), such as Navy Asp, that some of the early modders made. Those showed that the Navy and Police had access to more powerful ships than civilians. Ever since OXP player ships exceeded the power of these NPC ships, I think we've been going into the wrong direction.

I know that's rather harshly put, but I want to throw some more fuel into this discussion...

[Sendraks]

Good post Zevans - the bit about transit vans had me thinking of the Mercedes Sprint, which is a big ass van that goes very fast. It handles like a big van though, so despite its speed, won't ever be the first choice for technical circuit racing.

In Oolite terms, it is probably the equivalent to something like a Python Class cruiser or Python ET, which have a Cobbys speed but much larger capacity. The comparison ends there though, as these ships also handle like a cobby, which rather spoils the analogy.

I woudln't have a problem with big fast ships in Oolite if, perhaps, more compromises were made over their handling.

The question of cost is just something that doesn't work for a game mechanic as a justification for making something high performing in every respect. If you make the cost believably high in relative terms to whatever the "average" Oolite player income is per hour, then the ships just become frustratingly time consiuming to obtain, which isn't fun. Make them too cheap, and they lose their value as they become the "norm."

Whereas in "reality TM" the most expensive cars tend to be ones that look best, carry little, handle extremely well and/or have prestigious interior design. In Oolite terms for me, that would be the Mussarana.

[zevans]

How the heck did this turn into a discussion of present day technology development?

It's the token car analogy of doom! Are you new to the Internet?

You could have the game engine work out the turn rate based on the shape and mass distribution of the model, given a few starting assumptions which we could have fun arguing over... maybe as well as "strict mode" we should have "strict ship design mode". The problem is we'll then find the canonical ships are also utterly inconsistent...

...for reasons of gameplay!

[Sendraks]

The problem is we'll then find the canonical ships are also utterly inconsistent...

I think with some of the core ships that may actually be out of whack with what I consider to be balanced and without tinkering with those (or at least the Neolite versions, which have already been balanced somewhat by Simon) it will make balancing the OXP ships harder.

Wolfwood - I agree, players having "more" potent versions of Navy ships is a bit game breaking. I'm more comfortable with having access to similar or identical ships *give my Wolf MkII a hug here* but when a player in a single ship becomes the dominant force in a system, something is out of whack.

It is difficult to get away from analogies, but with the 60year old Cobra thing, again I agree. Ooniverse ships clearly are built to have long service lives, not be replaced every year by the latest model and accompanying finanace deal thing. The lifespans of military fighters/aircraft in "reality tm" are very similar, some of the most successful having been around for beyond 50years in their particular roles.

[DaddyHoggy]

Indeed the USS Enterprise had to have its reactor core replaced - this ship wasn't supposed to outlive its reactor so there was no sensible way to get the old one out other than cut down deck-by-deck to the engine room and take the whole thing out - not quite the high-speed jettison of its 24th Century namesake!

[Selezen]

Cobra III is a 60yo craft

No it isn't! The in-service date is 3100, and Oolite is set in 3143!

The way I've always looked at technological advancement in the Elite universe is that the hulls and frames are pretty standard, it's the internal workings that advance. This was a theory I put in place to "rationalise" the featureless exteriors of the ships in the games (until Frontier).

Essentially, the "equipment level" is the area that sees the most change. The inner workings of the ship are modular to allow ease of construction and replacement/upgrading of parts. The Equipment Level designs are tightened and the technology in there gets smaller with the march of time, thus better things can be fitted.

Again using the car analogy, it's like Volkswagen using the same chassis and underbody for the Golf since 19canteen and just shoving a new outer shell and seats and better engine and computer managed macguffins into it.

[Disembodied]

No it isn't! The in-service date is 3100, and Oolite is set in 3143!

Whoops! My bad. Mr Gimlet makes the same error ...

[another_commander]

Whoops! My bad. Mr Gimlet makes the same error ...

At his age, it is perfectly justified

[Disembodied]

At his age, it is perfectly justified

I'll let you tell him that ...

[Neverlast74]

@ Lestradae
As the unofficial spokesman of all non-coder-gamers - I would like to thank you for your work and your persistency you have shown in helping to create a better oolite with the Realistic Shipyards.

After getting Dangerous I was kind of looking into options what the game offers me (trading?) - but all other ships that did not offer anything for me. No surprise as Cobra mk3 was a decent ship, as there is no "buy a ship" option in the original game- which is why there was no use in having any balancing.

So I downloaded some new ships but I realized it was close to modular cheating. So I was looking into the board here - realizing others found that there is balancing is needed badly.

one bug I found - when I want to dock on a navy constitution it says ok we are preparing it - and then it flies away. :/.anyhow..

Echt leiwand!