Who "invented" hyperspace?

[zevans]

A tangent from the "ruining the classics" thread...

There seem to be some common assumptions about hyperspace/witchspace/subspace that "everybody knows", and I got to thinking about where these came from. The biggest "rule" is that hyperdrive is risky or doesn't work at all in large gravitational fields. But who sez so?

The earliest sci-fi on that grand scale that I could think of was Doc Smith, but he went around the concept entirely with the inertialess drive. So was anyone writing between him and Asimov, say in the 40s?

I have had a poke around a few Wikis and tvtropes.org and they all seem imply that Asimov more-or-less invented the consistent backstory we all know and love, in the Foundation series. But that's in the 50s - surely someone else got there first in the inter-war period?

Normally speculative fiction is ahead of the actual science, but in this case I suppose it might be the other way around, given that only three people understood relativity in 1919.[1] (Einstein wasn't that well known until much later, and quite a lot of sci-fi hyperspace seems to be based more on Poincare's work on n dimensions.)

Any thoughts?

[1] I've just looked up the quote I was referring to and realised how widely misreported this anecdote is - I thought it was a conversation between a journalist and Eddington, whereupon Eddington replies he was trying to think of a third person, but that's not how Wikipedia has it. Wikipedia has a genuine citation for a change, so that'll teach me to believe everything I read in printed form

[zevans]

Hm, inspired myself to look a bit harder

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics ... fiction%29
... says there was a lot of it about in Amazing Stories and blames John W Campbell in 1931. I'm ashamed to say I have hardly read any Campbell...

I also thought Grey Lensman was a bit later than it is - 1939. That has the hyperspace tubes, but that's not quite the same thing. However I do recall the character Sir Austin Cardynge discovers that you can't put one end of the tube near a planetary mass, to everyone's relief, so maybe that's where it started, if Campbell doesn't mention the mass thing.

Edit: Gutenberg version of Islands of Space!
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/20988

[Cody]

Yeah, I was thinking Asimov.

Good links, thanks. Islands of Space rings a very distant bell.

[zevans]

Yeah, I was thinking Asimov.

Good links, thanks. Islands of Space rings a very distant bell.

It's now on my phone for bedtime reading

Another interesting page on history of these tropes, which also says Islands of Space:

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/ctnlistPu ... ate2=1949
- the first example of sci-fi it has is Kepler's "Somnium" in 1634! (In that case does the Book of Revelations count?)

[Commander McLane]

- the first example of sci-fi it has is Kepler's "Somnium" in 1634! (In that case does the Book of Revelations count?)

Nah, derivative work, wouldn't count. You would have to look back to its sources (Book of Daniel et al.). Which has the added value of taking you back another roughly 300 years.

[Disembodied]

I don't know who first came up with the idea, to be honest ... it seems to be quite common, though. Probably for plot reasons more than anything else: it forces your heroes to deal with their immediate locality rather than just teleporting from the surface of one planet to the surface of another, or from vanishing away whenever they want to. ("Oh no, the baddies are approaching! What shall we do? ... Oh, yeah, that's right." *click* >FOOP<)

Generally speaking, there needs to be some form of problem or issue for characters to overcome: having to get far enough away from a planet before making their escape (or whatever) is as good as any. Plus, space is largely devoid of any sort of interesting geography, so when you've got some nearby, i.e. a planet or any kind of large mass, you may as well concoct some reason for your characters to have to interact with it.

[Cmdr Wyvern]

There is apparently some complex number crunching to do prior to flipping the switch. You know, to avoid bouncing too close to supernovas or ending up in the middle of a black hole.

[zevans]

There is apparently some complex number crunching to do prior to flipping the switch. You know, to avoid bouncing too close to supernovas or ending up in the middle of a black hole.

That's what Asimov says. Niven says it just plain won't work (and then does a bit of ret-conning in a later Ringworld novel... but that's another story, if you'll pardon the expression.)

Generally speaking, there needs to be some form of problem or issue for characters to overcome: having to get far enough away from a planet before making their escape (or whatever) is as good as any.

Yes, but that also means any of the other possibilities would be as good, so why always pick this one? I am not sure that's the reason... I think people just naturally assume Space is an Ocean.

Plus, space is largely devoid of any sort of interesting geography, so when you've got some nearby, i.e. a planet or any kind of large mass, you may as well concoct some reason for your characters to have to interact with it.

If you want to see what can be done without this assumption, try some Greg Egan, or Heinlein's Number of the Beast. This is an interesting example since the plot is built around the different limitations of travel imposed by Gay Deceiver's unique approach to navigation.

In fact I'll just sit here and keep thinking of counter-examples to what I originally said...

[Disembodied]

Generally speaking, there needs to be some form of problem or issue for characters to overcome: having to get far enough away from a planet before making their escape (or whatever) is as good as any.

Yes, but that also means any of the other possibilities would be as good, so why always pick this one? I am not sure that's the reason... I think people just naturally assume Space is an Ocean.

I suppose this one is used a lot because it makes sense (for a given value of "sense") while still retaining sufficient wiggle room to allow for dramatic possibilities like "emergency manoeuvres". It's relatively easy to explain in a few short lines of not-too-technobabble, too. Because it works well, a lot of writers will adopt it as a plot device if nothing else, helping it become more or less accepted as a SF staple and ensuring that it gets used even more. Which of course is not to say that writers can't or won't discard it totally and explore the plot-possibilities of other FTL systems.

[Cody]

Worm-holes are the most elegant solution for fiction, especially fixed ones. (Also the most likely in RL).
As with Hyperspace, they need to be beyond a gravity well. This is in effect how Elite/Oolite operate – routes between systems are fixed.

Question: does a Lagrange point qualify as a jump point due to equalled-out gravity?
I’m thinking of a character known as “Lagrange” Calvert, who pulled such a trick in the “Nights Dawn” trilogy.

[Commander McLane]

Hm, inspired myself to look a bit harder

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics ... fiction%29
... says there was a lot of it about in Amazing Stories and blames John W Campbell in 1931. I'm ashamed to say I have hardly read any Campbell...

I've taken the opportunity to follow the link and read Islands of Space, I am about halfway through now. And I have to say, if you haven't read it, you haven't really missed anything. The story is wooden, a characterization (or--heavens beware--character development) of the protagonists non-existent, have I mentioned that all characters are male (the only female I've come across until now is dead), all scientific/technological problems are discussed (and solved!) by pure technobabble in less than two paragraphs each time, so the "fiction" part is less than adorable. And don't get me started on the "science" part. It simply falls flat on its face. Wherever Campbell gives concrete information for his future word of the 22nd century, it is hopelessly outdated even at the beginning of the 21st (or pure technobabble, see above). Photography with plates? Calculations by pen and paper, slide rule, or some primitive calculator only? There is super-conducting, however with lead only, and at approximately 0ºK. The astronomical knowledge hasn't advanced since even before 1930. And have I mentioned that the world of science and exploration is 100% male only? Okay, there are these aircars, but even they are outdated in being just a simple car in the air, not much of an advanced and different transportation system. And they take you out of the Moloch which is New York into a completely untouched, un-polluted and idyllic countryside in less than an hour. Oh yeah.

So, apart from the concept of hyperspace, not much to gain here.

I think personally I prefer science fiction which doesn't deal too much with the technical aspects of things, because that produces descriptions which may get ridiculous quite quickly; but rather deals with the characters and their conflicts. Therefore my deep respect for Stanisław Łem. But that's just my personal taste...

[DaddyHoggy]

Lem rocks!

[zevans]

I've taken the opportunity to follow the link and read Islands of Space, I am about halfway through now. And I have to say, if you haven't read it, you haven't really missed anything. The story is wooden, a characterization (or--heavens beware--character development) of the protagonists non-existent, have I mentioned that all characters are male (the only female I've come across until now is dead), all scientific/technological problems are discussed (and solved!) by pure technobabble in less than two paragraphs each time, so the "fiction" part is less than adorable.

Ah, this must be your first space opera. I'd suggest you give the Lensman books a miss. Probably fair criticisms of the writing (you sound like me talking about EE Doc), but the science part is a bit harder to call. Remember Science Marches On, and things that seem an obvious leap to us probably weren't obvious in 1931.

Photography with plates?

Hey, even the industry didn't see that one coming.

Calculations by pen and paper, slide rule, or some primitive calculator only?

Turing's proof that something other than a slide rule was even possible was still about 5 years away when Campbell wrote the story. In 1942, never mind '31, Feynman himself used large teams of real people with mechanical calculators to model the physics of the bomb, rather than think "aha, I could do this with valves..."

So, apart from the concept of hyperspace, not much to gain here.

Probably quite true!

I have been told many times I should read some Lem, but I haven't got to him yet... have you read any Iain M Banks? Quite a good balance of "soft" versus "hard" sci-fi.

[/b]

[zevans]

Question: does a Lagrange point qualify as a jump point due to equalled-out gravity?

They're only metastable, so space isn't particularly flat AROUND there - just at the point itself - that might put the kibosh on it.

Alderson drives (in the Mote books) talk about lines of some technobabble or other* - NOT gravity - being equal dependent on the size and type of the stars concerned, which has the interesting side effect of the jump point between a red giant and a dwarf being IN the red giant.

* (hang your head in shame, Pournelle)

I’m thinking of a character known as “Lagrange” Calvert, who pulled such a trick in the “Nights Dawn” trilogy.

Is that the one with voidhawks and so on?

[Cody]

Yes, Voidhawks.
If you've read Banks, you should recognise my ship's name.
As DH says, Lem rocks.

For "hard sci-fi" (no hyperspace) try the "Mars" trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.
Stuff we could actually do.