Big player ships

[Svengali]

Not a good idea, L. This will break/bend/change every mission that uses a station. At least if the player has to do something nearby (e.g. Localhero's raid missions, Carrier missions, etc.).

Good point. But, will it? I mean, "alternate docking" will only be the case for very big ships, not every player ship. And the docking and launching will be the same technically "as usual".
Could you give me an example? Just so that I know what exactly could happen that I haven't (yet) thought of.

Sure.
1. One of the raid missions is a escort mission. You have to protect a shuttle until it has docked at system main, but you can't if automagically docked :-). And if you stay close to the shuttle the calculation of your bonus will change - but if you are docked when the shuttle docks...
2. There is another mission where you have to stay very close to a special station to receive some data from it's automatic system. It's not possible then.
3. The carrier missions are the next example. While protecting the carrier the player often gets close to it.

We (oxpers) only have a few fixed points and changing any of these can cause a whole bunch of trouble. And in most cases players don't know exactly what the reason is - finding it out is sometimes ..errr.. difficult with all these interactions/clashes between oxps.

[Lestradae]

Hey Svengali,

your examples actually blow any straight planetfall option out of the water

I might have to go down the escape pod upgraded to docking shuttle route then, or find a way around against unwanted docking inside a mission.

Perhaps some way the "autodock" feature can be switched on and off in flight? Only way that quickly comes to mind is use a missile shaft for that ... do you have any ideas about switching such a feature on and off?



L

[Svengali]

your examples actually blow any straight planetfall option out of the water :(
...
Perhaps some way the "autodock" feature can be switched on and off in flight? Only way that quickly comes to mind is use a missile shaft for that ... do you have any ideas about switching such a feature on and off?

Sorry L - wasn't my intention. But I also don't have an idea how to do it without clashing with other things. Maybe players with these ships have to live without special missions. Nothing is really prepared for such big ships.

[Lestradae]

No problem Svengali, it is in no way your fault that I overlooked something relevant - but as I said, there are different options for solving the problem, and creating very big player ships that have no problem with docking/launching is, as you say, something entirely new, so it needs entirely new ways of doing it.

I do want to reach a stage where players with very big ships can trade, fight and do any mission, use any station like the rest of them. And your objection has actually helped me move along in that direction!

I think the basic planetfall-like auto-dock idea is good. There need to be two things: A way to switch the function off - doable similar to the hyperradio.oxp that activates when you open the F7 screen in-flight. I could do something similar with the say F8 screen that switches the docking shuttle procedure on and off.

Second thing could be to allow other oxps than OSE to switch the shuttle auto-dock function off during certain stages of a mission.

I think it's doable, and the moment my notebook (which died the day before yesterday) has been repaired I'll try it out, and if it works for me submit it for extensive testing in the T&B forum over there ...

If you come upon anything else that could be a problem, by all means tell me so!

Cheers

L

[Thargoid]

The simplest way would be, as thrown into the ideas ring before, to use a separate terminal-like station away from the main one. If that's suitably positioned, it would do away with the problems mentioned (and players in any ship could use it).

The only issue is then transferring them to the main station for use of game-saving and things like that. Here we're less in the realm of Planetfall but more for Frame's Save Anywhere. I'm not sure whether that OXP is still active, or if it works, or indeed if there is any trick there needed to make it work with a big ship or whether you're just automatically going to crash into the main station at position-shift rather than doing it manually...

[Lestradae]

The simplest way would be, as thrown into the ideas ring before, to use a separate terminal-like station away from the main one. If that's suitably positioned, it would do away with the problems mentioned (and players in any ship could use it).

The really big problem with that is that I want players in carriers to be able to dock at all stations - any station - not just the main one.

Otherwise, a carrier commander will not be able to take missions from Random Hits, Galactic Navy, Assassins etc. ... you name it.

The main station is the smallest problem anyways, as shift-D makes you auto-dock. I tried to lobby a bit for giving the autodock function to all other stations too, but no one wanted that apparently

Atm I have to see that I have a working system to script on again, then I can see what I can do. I guess using a auto-dock that can be switched on/off via the F8 screen inflight and that mission oxp'ers can access from outside (switch it off via oxp for some mission stretches) - with a missionvariable presumably - is the best bet. Or am I still overlooking some issue?



L

[Cmdr James]

Otherwise, a carrier commander will not be able to take missions from Random Hits, Galactic Navy, Assassins etc. ... you name it.

Is that so bad? It provides balance, forcing players to choose what they want, either a monster ship, or access to all areas. Would you hire someone with a battleship to perform an assasination? I wouldnt, I would want someone with a little subtlty, who might make it look like an accident, or a robery gone wrong.

In fact some stations (an orb one if I remember right) have deliberately small docking slots for in-game reasons, it isnt *certain* that all docking slots should be useable by all ships.

In the case of carriers, do you really want behemoths to be able to dock with each other? What does it mean to have one inside another? I understand the shuttle point (you dont dock with the main ship, but with a smaller shuttle) but then you have to take into account things that no longer make any sense, such as docking a heavily damaged ship should leave it exposed to damage or destruction while you sit in the shuttle.

And if you are only docking a shuttle rather than the whole ship, does that raise questions about the shipyard, can they still do repairs and so on if you are not physically in the station. What happens if you sell the ship? Where does it go, it should stil be lurking outside.

There are a lot of things to consider if you want all these things to make sense.

[Lestradae]

Hi Cmdr James!

Is that so bad? It provides balance, forcing players to choose what they want, either a monster ship, or access to all areas.

I do think so. I see no point, ingame nor game-balance-wise, in somehow punishing players for their choice of ship. Sure, some ships are (and should be!) more fitting for some endeavors than others. But even in nearly-strict Oolite with one oxp in you might happen to get the Constrictor mission when shipping cargo in your Anaconda - also not extremely logical, is it?

Would you hire someone with a battleship to perform an assasination? I wouldnt, I would want someone with a little subtlty, who might make it look like an accident, or a robery gone wrong.

Narrativium options do go both ways here, don't they? You might want to have it look like an accident or you might want to send a message via Behemoth which smeares the "soft target" over so much stretch of station outer hull.

In fact some stations (an orb one if I remember right) have deliberately small docking slots for in-game reasons, it isnt *certain* that all docking slots should be useable by all ships.

That would not be very consistent in and of itself, too - what hinders any carrier (or even Boa) pilot to send out a little craft that can dock? In Aquatics, the Hammerhead hauler does exactly that, for example: Being too big to dock, it sends out cargo sleds that detach from the main ship which can.

In the case of carriers, do you really want behemoths to be able to dock with each other? What does it mean to have one inside another? I understand the shuttle point (you dont dock with the main ship, but with a smaller shuttle)

My answer would be the one you provided yourself: We can assume (and underlie that assumption with appropriate screen messages) that the Behemoths wouldn't dock with each other, but that one was "parked" (or tugging along on autopilot, escorting the other one) near the other Behemoth, whilst the pilot was onboard the "docked" ship with his shuttle.

but then you have to take into account things that no longer make any sense, such as docking a heavily damaged ship should leave it exposed to damage or destruction while you sit in the shuttle.

Perhaps the pilot flees the ship that has become dangerous to survive? Situations like this are also already in strict Oolite - every time you use the escape pod!

And if you are only docking a shuttle rather than the whole ship, does that raise questions about the shipyard, can they still do repairs and so on if you are not physically in the station. What happens if you sell the ship? Where does it go, it should stil be lurking outside.

Repairs on player carriers might be done in space, at the "parked" big vessel, while the Commander is having a Deep Fried Poets Coffee at the station/carrier that provides the repairs.

If you buy a big ship, it is tugged to the carrier/station where you bought it - from whereever it was stored before - and you are flown to it via the docking shuttle you are going to use in the future too. In other words, "really" re-appear the 3 or so kms from the shipyard in your new big carrier.

It actually would be a very nice twist if, after selling a very big carrier, it would still be lurking outside! That's a cool idea. I don't know if it is possible for an oxp to "remember" which ship was just sold at a station/carrier - if it is, perhaps that could be scripted in.

There are a lot of things to consider if you want all these things to make sense.

I have thought about this making sense and being as playable and flexible as possible at the same time. I hope it shows a bit

Atm I am going to do other things anyways with the OSE test version, but when I try the idea slowly forming now how to solve this, I will see if and how it feels believeable when played, also when interacting with other oxps.

Keep the ideas & comments coming, I think this is going to get somewhere

Cheers

L

[Cmdr James]

Is that so bad? It provides balance, forcing players to choose what they want, either a monster ship, or access to all areas.

I do think so. I see no point, ingame nor game-balance-wise, in somehow punishing players for their choice of ship.
L

But its not punishing them, it is giving variety, downs as well as ups. Players already compromise when they buy a new ship, and this is how it should be. If you chose something huge with thousands of t storage, then it will probably be slower than a small dedicated scout ship. If you choose a dredger, then it isnt as manouverable. If you choose something too big for a docking slot, then you have to make do with limited docking options. The pay off for that is huge cargo capacity, and probably energy and firepower too.

I do not agree that every ship should be able to do everything. I think it is right that some ships can only mount some equipment, I think it is good that there is a range of ships each with strengths and weaknesses, and I think that if people are allowed to fly ships that are clearly excessive in some respects (in this case size) they should have compensating features. You have here a perfect self balancing, where the size of the ship limits where you can park it.

[Nemoricus]

It is possible to have the ship lurking around outside the station if you sell it.

On station entry record player.ship.name. When they exit the station, check the current ship name against the recorded one. If it's different, they've changed ship. A script can then be run which takes the recorded name, checks it against a list of big ships (switch statement with various ship names being the cases), and adds the appropriate ship not far from the station. The player ships would likely need a special role to facilitate this, but that's trivial.

[Lestradae]

@Cmdr James:

I do basically agree with nearly everything you're saying about game balance, but balance is a question of relation and not absolutes.

There are NPC ships that are much more capable in the OSE version of the Ooniverse - so while you can have more of the cake and eat it, you are up against significantly upped ante's.

No one will stop you i.e. to go into a GN battle with a Dredger; but, if you want to be in a really big sitting duck that moves with the agility of a hill in the midst of a thargoid fleet, well, it's your funeral ...

Some things will be different in OSE for that. For example, leaving the space lanes will teach you why there are space lanes. Out there are the missing links between pirates & dictators ... etc.

Some ships will still be more or less suited for certain tasks. A player frigate will be a battle ship; a Dredger a trader. They are so good that they can fulfill other roles, too - but the NPCs will have the same additional options. And so on.

@Nemoricus:

Interesting suggestion. I might come back to you about how exactly to do this, perhaps you'd even help me with it? That would be very nice, as I have written my first two or three .js that were not complete hacks only during the last month ...

Cheers everyone

L

[zevans]

The really big problem with that is that I want players in carriers to be able to dock at all stations - any station - not just the main one.

Otherwise, a carrier commander will not be able to take missions from Random Hits, Galactic Navy, Assassins etc. ... you name it.

It doesn't matter how big the docking bay is, there will probably be a ship that won't fit in it. The problem you describe would also come up if you're flying one of the ships that you need to dock with in order to get the mission or equipment you're after. e.g.: How does a Dredger pilot dock with a Dredger to trade, and sell all the goodies they salvaged from the derelict Anaconda they stumbled across?

So in terms of consistent backstory, how about the way real seagoing ships do it if they are too big: dinghies/skiffs/ferries and other child ships of the station/dockable entity. I would think anything big enough to dock with would have those. In fact we already have Transporters and Worms and probably some other ferry type ships I haven't come across yet.

So in a "big" ship you don't necessarily have to dock - you just have to get within a certain minimum range and open hailing frequencies. What do you think?

In MNSR+1 you could maybe have tugs - not sure you could write that purely in an OXP at the moment, you'd need more code features?

Whilst I'm here, related issue I came across last night - as the Wiki says:

Docking problems are similar to the ones encountered with the Behemoth: you are trying to dock with a non-stationary object. Don't forget that the Dredger will occasionally execute a 180 degrees somersault to avoid collisions, during which docking seems quite impossible.

Er, yeah. And I don't have a DC yet, so can't follow the suggestion:

For docking force it to a halt with the docking computer. After this you can cancel the automatic docking and do it manually.

What I do have is the trunk build, which has the Landing Clearance stuff. Could we add something to the Behemoths so that when you ask for Landing Clearance it overrides the anti-collision stuff for your ship for the two minutes?

I tried to lobby a bit for giving the autodock function to all other stations too, but no one wanted that apparently

I still think learning to dock is part of the fun!

Or am I still overlooking some issue?

Depends really, if Landing Clearance is in the MNSR it changes the picture somewhat...

[Nemoricus]

@Nemoricus:

Interesting suggestion. I might come back to you about how exactly to do this, perhaps you'd even help me with it? That would be very nice, as I have written my first two or three .js that were not complete hacks only during the last month ...

Cheers everyone

L

I'd be glad to help. I don't think that it would be too complicated to do, either.

[Cmdr James]

So in terms of consistent backstory, how about the way real seagoing ships do it if they are too big: dinghies/skiffs/ferries and other child ships of the station/dockable entity. I would think anything big enough to dock with would have those. In fact we already have Transporters and Worms and probably some other ferry type ships I haven't come across yet.

So in a "big" ship you don't necessarily have to dock - you just have to get within a certain minimum range and open hailing frequencies. What do you think?

Right, thats what L has been talking about, perhaps using the scape pod as some kind of way of implementing one of those landing craft.

The problem is, that this isnt supported in the core game, and it is far from clear that it will be. This is possibly related to the suggestions for support/escort ships being carried. One of the real underlying problems is that oolite isnt really player oriented, its player-ship oriented, with some less than elegant work arounds for buying/selling ships. So that there isnt really a way to launch a shuttle with the player in, or to dock the player in anything other than the player ship. What would be nice (but a non-trivial amount of work) would be to properly decouple the player and the ship, potentially allowing things like this. But that isnt going to happen any time soon.

[Thargoid]

So, out of pure curiosity, why did we have all the player. --> player.ship. changes in the scripting when we went to v1.72?