Mr B

Post by **Cmdr James** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:18 pm

Of course, not showing the guy due respect is hardly the best to endear ourselves to him.

LittleBear · Post by **LittleBear** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:20 pm

Hmm yes. Thats a point.

Cmd. Cheyd · Post by **Cmd. Cheyd** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:35 pm

One thing that I think would benefit the project, and ensure no one is ever able to start charging for it (yes, I know the license it's under) is to take the lesson from UFO:AI. Someone who wasn't a community member WAS selling that game on Ebay despite the license. UFO:AI just simply added a "Load Screen" message that stated the game was freely available for download and gave a link to their primary site.

I could see a similar scenario playing out with Oolite, especially if the project gains more in popularity. If we adopted the load screen approach now, it would preemptively handle the issue of someone attempting to sell the game and thereby removing DB's current reason for his goodwill.

ClymAngus · Post by **ClymAngus** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:47 pm

Cmdr James wrote:
Of course, calling the guy (deleted) is hardly the best to endear ourselves to him.

Fair comment. Adjusted.

drew · Post by **drew** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:49 am

Aye... keep stumm.

I *very* purposefully made my stories CC licensing, as they are a derivative work of a derivative work. Likewise it wouldn't be hard to adjust - and fortunately the Q-Bomb didn't exist in Elite...

Cheers,

Drew.

ClymAngus · Post by **ClymAngus** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:51 am

Is it just me or does it seem a little unfortunate, that some one can make something really cool (with a technical sell by date) but the people that still appreciate it, are scared to share their continuing love of it with it's makers?

Humans are weird.

Diziet Sma · Post by **Diziet Sma** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:57 am

ClymAngus wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem a little unfortunate, that some one can make something really cool (with a technical sell by date) but the people that still appreciate it, are scared to share their continuing love of it with it's makers?

No, it's not just you. There's a lot in the software (and I.P.) world that seriously needs revamping.. mostly to deal with greed, both corporate and otherwise...

ClymAngus wrote:
Humans are weird.

Seconded...

Selezen · Post by **Selezen** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:33 am

All fair comment - at the end of the day is Braben wanted to shut us down he could. We've copied his game concept, and it all depends on whether he has registered it as his IP or not. Which he probbly has, let's face it.

However, two things do come to mind.

1: most of the names and universe of Elite were not actually created by B&B. Most of the terminology (witchspace, quirium, GalCop itself, Thargoids etc) were taken from the manual or the novella, both written by Rob Holdstock. If you look carefully, there's no mention of GalCop or Thargoids or any ship names actually in the game, at least until other people came along and started adding stuff to the game. Elite-A was a BBC micro expansion to the Elite concept that added bits to the game, most notably the concept of starting in an Adder and buying other ships. I know B&B designed the ships themselves, but is it written anywhere exactly how many of the names came from B&B and how many from the imagination of Holdstock?

2: Elite's persistent community is one of the things that keeps the game alive. Braben wants to bring out Elite 4, but if he slams down every attempt to keep the game alive he'll kill off his target audience. He's after sales primarily, and he's building on the Elite name to build those sales, or he wouldn't list it as Elite 4! Thus it's in his best interests to allow things like Oolite.

As I said before, he's let most (if not nearly all) clones and "homages" to Elite pass by without comment. It's ridiculous to think that he hasn't heard of OOlite by now, especially with all the media coverage it has had! If he hasn't stumbled across it himself then someone in Frontier is bound to have noticed it and brought it to his attention. For all we know he could be lurking around these very forums! The only thing I think will make him lay the smack down is if anyone started charging hard cash for distributing Oolite. He smacked Ian Bell in the past for allowing the download of specifically copyrighted material (including the source code for Elite, IIRC). The Oolite project doesn't do that.!

Post by **Cmdr James** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:47 am

I dont think adding Holdstick to the mix makes the situation any better. It just means there is yet another "rights owner" who might have a case against us.

These questions can only be answered in a court, so lets get off the subject.

Selezen · Post by **Selezen** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:36 am

You want to stop discussing the actual subject of the topic?

Thing is this is a valid topic in an era where everyone is protecting their IP like a fox protects its kids. We've been blessed with the fact that Oolite has, let's face it, been ALLOWED to carry on. If the Breadbin really wanted to, he probably would shut us down. The fact that he hasn't is a good indication that he likes what we are doing.

Being the Friendliest Forum also helps, no doubt!

Post by **Cmdr James** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:50 am

But none of us actually know what we are talking about, this is all just so much hot air. Apologies to anyone who actually is an IP lawyer.

I dont think we know who holds the many various rights, perhaps some are holdstock, some B&B, some are Giles and contributors, but there may also be others.

We dont actually know what the views of most of the rightsholders are, we can guess that Bell and Braben dont mind oolite, but I dont think thats proven.

All I really see in this thread are insults aimed at one of the people we believe to be a key rightsholder, and unfounded speculation on the legal landscape. If we want to talk about identifying potentially infringing content and proactively mitigating risk, either by contacting rightsholders, or by replacing, then fine. But honestly, what are we achieving here, other than kicking a sleeping dog.

ClymAngus · Post by **ClymAngus** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:37 pm

Cmdr James wrote:
All I really see in this thread are insults aimed at one of the people we believe to be a key rightsholder,

Now I thought we'd fixed that for the specific purpose of neutralizing any unnecessary and childish ire. Which I fully admit that I instigated and therefore have the responsibility to correct. Which has (as far as I can tell,) been done. I thank you for pointing this out in the first place, but the art comes from building a new fire on the old, not raking the ashes.

Anyway moving on. What I'm interested in is if the C.A.D. letter popped up say tomorrow, would we *really* abandon all the work that's been done here? Sure to continue would be illegal, but yeah this is the internet. Censorship is seen as damage and it is routed around.

Consider it a hypothetical problem if the though of illegality has you shaking in your 30 something shoes. How can any community endeavor safeguard the bulk content of it's users in a hostile environment?

Or is everyone doomed by becoming good little consumers by shrugging, giving each other "oh it was good while it lasted" looks, strolling to the mart and buying EVE?

Post by **Cmdr James** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:07 pm

My point is:

1) none of us know the first thing about law
2) there is no clear threat to which we are reacting
3) the current situation appears to be stable
4) lets drop it, and get on with something constructive

I dont think its helpful to analyse the response to a theoretical C&D, not least because the possibility of any discussion we have here (which is in public) might impact negatively on our legal position.

I also dont think its likely to happen, but even if it were, why pre-empt it?

If there is a threat, then the best thing to do (as I said in my previous post) would be to either contact the people and cut a deal, or to start removing anything debatable now.

A minor aside, you and I may be agreed on the good Mr. B, but did you read Selezen's post to which I was replying :p

Selezen · Post by **Selezen** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:06 pm

OK. Brass tacks.

Fact: Nothing in the hard code has been taken directly from the Elite codebase. The codebase was developed by Giles. The Elite-like elements are derived from editable plists - change those plists and the game changes. The"goat soup" routines are the only grey area, but again these routines are standard string mixing routines and not subject to intellectual property.

Fact: You can't copyright a concept. The "sandbox space trading and combat game" concept cannot be copyrighted. If it could be, then FOFT, Privateer, Freelancer, XBTF etc would not exist. Oolite is another iteration of the same concept that Elite grew from.

Fact: if any writ comes in from Mssrs Braben or Bell then all that has to be done to make Oolite an original work is to:

change the ship models
change the shipdata plists to change the ship names
change the fibonacci sequence to create different planet names
change the goat soup strings
Maybe change the name of the game...

I maybe missed something, but I think that's a fair guess as to the totality of what makes Oolite a clone of Elite.

At the end of the day, why worry about it? It's been proven by past experience that as long as someone isn't charging money and making profit from derivative works, then the powers that be aren't that fussed. TNK was pulled because the actual game, including its branding, were release as a payware PPC download. If some numpty does that with Oolite then Oolite will suffer the same fate. Based on precedent, I believe that as long as Oolite remains free, it will be accepted.

There are copious other freeware games out there that are based on licensed media - Star Trek games aplenty, Babylon 5 IFH, blah blah blah. Most IP law is based on financial gain from the property without appropriate permission.

I can cite example on this. I recently helped a mate with investigation into the possibility of publishing hardcopy books of his webcomic. Unfortunately, his comic is based on the IP of Games Workshop, and they have been tolerant and supportive of his work, even including some of his strips in their White Dwarf magazine. They have denied him permission to publish any material for profit but still offer continued support for the webcomic as long as it remains free.

That situation is no different to Oolite's position. A derivative work is freely available to the public with no profit or adverse publicity being generated.

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:50 pm

Selezen wrote:
Fact: You can't copyright a concept.

This, however, is not the least bit useful if things actually get serious. Witness the numerous Tetris clones that have been shut down by The Tetris Company.

But yes, the ship models, galaxy layouts and names are the only reasonable-ish targets.