Mr B

[Cmdr James]

There is the problem that if your sences can capture it, then chances are other things can too. "I'm sorry, you do not have the nessessary clearance to view this media. Please stand still whilst we heat lance your eyes and ears and extract the wetware copy of it from your brain via hatchet labotomy."

Im not sure if you are arguing, or agreeing. Certainly DRM is fundamentally flawed -- either something is playable, and therefore in some sense capturable, or it isnt.

Thats one of the great frustrations of DRM, not only is it intrusive, and painful for the legitimate customer, but it, in I think every case so far, has utterly failed in its apparent mission to stop piracy. Like many people have said of games like Spore -- Ill get a better version from the Pirate Bay than I would from a shop. To be clear here, I dont have Spore, either pirate or legit, but its true -- these days you get a better product from the pirate.

[ClymAngus]

There is the problem that if your sences can capture it, then chances are other things can too. "I'm sorry, you do not have the nessessary clearance to view this media. Please stand still whilst we heat lance your eyes and ears and extract the wetware copy of it from your brain via hatchet labotomy."

Im not sure if you are arguing, or agreeing. Certainly DRM is fundamentally flawed -- either something is playable, and therefore in some sense capturable, or it isnt.

Thats one of the great frustrations of DRM, not only is it intrusive, and painful for the legitimate customer, but it, in I think every case so far, has utterly failed in its apparent mission to stop piracy. Like many people have said of games like Spore -- Ill get a better version from the Pirate Bay than I would from a shop. To be clear here, I dont have Spore, either pirate or legit, but its true -- these days you get a better product from the pirate.

Well, I would like to think that the rip, is just another area of human endeavour. As new tec comes along to lock off media so the socialist finds new and interesting ways of getting it for free.

Getting back to the point. I was thinking of sending a finished version of the 8 gal maps to Ian and David when their done. I wouldn't if, it would result in trouble or spell the downfall of all things oolite. To be honest Ian seems like an old school rave head and a bit of a idealist fruit that generally I feel blessed to spend a mind moment with, whenever I meet one.

David on the other hand seems a bit too smiles and daggers. A difficult man to read in many respects.

So my current plan was finish the maps email them to Giles and Ian (because they'll get it) and leave out (much to my regret) the man who (quite frankly) makes me a bit nervous. Namely the big D.

[aegidian]

To be completely honest I was always VERY nervous about Oolite being shut down by Frontier. E-TNK was effectively a reverse engineered version of the original BBC source code, so with Oolite I started from scratch, only borrowing the random number code to recreate the original galaxies.

And E-TNK was only shut down after the people porting it to pocket-PC tried to issue an EULA which made claims Frontier objected to (whether these were commercial or IP dispute issues I can't say.)

Still, fear of Frontier was the reason I insisted on a non-commercial license for Oolite for such a very long time. Basically, until I could be reasonably certain that Frontier probably knew about it, and were turning a blind eye. Only then could I be persuaded that GPL wasn't going to hurt.

Nevertheless, despite the original code, and the ship replacement possibility, I think only the still-disputed IP of Elite prevents any entity from claiming that Oolite's look-and-feel is trading on that of 'their' Elite.

In that way we are in a unique position, one that should be treated with respect, and care, and due gratitude to Ian Bell and David Braben.

[Thargoid]

In that way we are in a unique position, one that should be treated with respect, and care, and due gratitude to Ian Bell and David Braben.

...and in turn to your good self too.

[Lestradae]

... so with Oolite I started from scratch, only borrowing the random number code to recreate the original galaxies.

That implies, if a worst case scenario happened, then changing the galaxy seed, plus the basic ships and commodities names would lead to there being no connection to Elite left whatsoever, and therefore no possible angle of attack for any copyright lawsuit, yes?

[Nemoricus]

Arguably, the ship models and names are also based off of Elite. However, I don't think that names can be copyrighted, so changing the models would leave no remaining traces of direct Elite connection.

They also can't copyright the game mechanics. They can copyright the code that executes them, but not the mechanics themselves.

[Davidtq]

Arguably, the ship models and names are also based off of Elite. However, I don't think that names can be copyrighted, so changing the models would leave no remaining traces of direct Elite connection.

They also can't copyright the game mechanics. They can copyright the code that executes them, but not the mechanics themselves.

However they have more than enough cash \ legal experts to bury the hobbyist programmer under a case they couldnt afford to fight let alone win. Having a possible legal case isnt the same thing as being able to afford to defend that position!

IF David Braben (or Ian Bell) were to take umberance with this game Im pretty certain they could bury things pretty fast. A legal snotogram to ISP's hosting files or forums etc could probably get things nuked overnight. I dont doubt the project could survive by going further underground, but it would be a shadow existance and less likely to grow.

I really dont think stirring a hornets nest would be a clever idea, I think its far better to show due respect to those who inspired the creation of this game, and hope that they remain passive about its existance.

[Selezen]

Oolite has a few good things in it that would let it live if Braben slams the door though.

Ship/station models and names can all be changed by editing plist files and putting new models in.

Planet names can be changed by changing the fibonacci sequence seeds.

Everything else is Giles' own work and/or is sufficiently generic to be safe from copyrighting!

[Cmdr James]

Has anyone actually taken legal advice, or is qualified to give an opinion here, or is this all just assumption?

I am pretty sure that if Bell/Braben or anyone else tries to kill oolite, that it will be pretty much the end, regardless of the legal status. I doubt any of us fancy a day in court, and I certainly do not fancy footing the bill.

[another_commander]

Selezen has a good point, but I have to agree with Cmdr James here. It's all discussion in the air at the moment without any real legal substance and the best thing is that nobody tries to test the waters. There is no win scenario if courts get involved in any way.

[Selezen]

There is precedent here. Elite was quickly followed by FOFT. Then Privateer and Privateer 2. Then Freelancer. Then the X series (which was a more or less DIRECT ripoff).

Oolite at its core is a space trading game with some combat in. The AI, code and core code are completely different. Braben and Frontier do not have copyright on using a fib sequence to generate words. The scanner (one of the more recognisable elements) has been used in other games before Oolite was written. The code to make the scanner work in Oolite is totally different code.

The code base has no similarity to the codebase for Elite - it's in Objective-C. The fact that it achieves a similar result is neither here nor there. Look at other examples of this - MS Office against WordPerfect (or even OpenOffice) - similar concepts but different approach.

Oolite shares the common ancestry of a space trading game. The execution is more geared towards community involvement too, rather than being a closed system.

Admittedly, this is still speculation, but as I said there are real-world precedents. Giles et al are not going to charge for Oolite so there's no problem about making money from a third-party IP, which is the only reason Braben laid the smack down on NTK.

Besides, Oolite is a mac application ported to PC. Elite never ran on Mac...

[Cmdr James]

When the writ comes, you can be the first in the dock if you want :p

[Lestradae]

I think Selezen is correct.

You need something to get a court into action against, if you want to (and Braben obviously doesn't want to). No court will act "because you have money". And no court will lay down a judgement that can't be explained.

That is why I think that Selezen is spot-on: There would be no case! Irrelevant how good & expensive the lawyers of the "other side" would be.

If a writ came from a legal firm and everyone went into hiding, though, that would fall into the category of no civil courage simply. A writ from a lawyer, if it has no substance case behind it, is a piece of paper with an effect level similar to other paper used in certain domestic applications

Therefore I don't think anyone who wanted to shut down Oolite could. But if someone tried, I'd go for change the names and galaxy seeds, and reopen afterwards. I'd even be one of the people in the dock if need be if it really happened. I have one of the best media lawyers in europe (already used his services once) if nescessary ...

But, also true, no one has ever challenged Oolite and I think no one ever will. Yet if it happened, I for one would hope that there are some people (besides me) who would be ready to fight such an idiocy

My 0.2 Cr,

L

[Davidtq]

I think Selezen is correct.

You need something to get a court into action against, if you want to (and Braben obviously doesn't want to). No court will act "because you have money". And no court will lay down a judgement that can't be explained.

That is why I think that Selezen is spot-on: There would be no case! Irrelevant how good & expensive the lawyers of the "other side" would be.[/quote]

I reckon theres more than enough on the names and fiction side to have the current oolite dangling from a legal rope. It could be changed after the fact, but I think theres more than enough in the game now to get it into a court room. We have jamesons starting from lave with a cobra, we have planets all the same as in the elite darkwheel novel. I think theres more than enough IP there to pursue a case regardless of lack of code base similarity.

I should think George Lucas would be in court quick if someone tried coming out with a commercial film starring "luke skywalker" from "tatooine" in a "x-wing", even if there was no original footage used.

I suspect that the fact that no money is changing hands here is the main reason why a benevolent attitude is being taken. I very strongly suspect that Mr Braben is well aware of oolites existance it has afterall been mention on his companies own message boards.

I suspect if money was to be made then there would be enough to sink the game in court, although it could reemerge with new ships and galaxy, I for one would stick to playing the current elite-a-like version.

If a writ came from a legal firm and everyone went into hiding, though, that would fall into the category of no civil courage simply. A writ from a lawyer, if it has no substance case behind it, is a piece of paper with an effect level similar to other paper used in certain domestic applications

That maybe but ISPs have proven to act very quickly on these pieces of paper, David Braben managed to get Ian Bells site nuked of the net without getting as far as court once. I dont doubt that they could easily enough get us nuked off file hosting and forum servers without having to make it as far as court... Most of these companies havent got the stomach or will for any kind of fight. It wouldnt necesarily have to be the player base \ devs who gave in easy.

Therefore I don't think anyone who wanted to shut down Oolite could. But if someone tried, I'd go for change the names and galaxy seeds, and reopen afterwards. I'd even be one of the people in the dock if need be if it really happened. I have one of the best media lawyers in europe (already used his services once) if nescessary ...

But, also true, no one has ever challenged Oolite and I think no one ever will. Yet if it happened, I for one would hope that there are some people (besides me) who would be ready to fight such an idiocy

My 0.2 Cr,

L

If I had a sizeable disposeable income \ legal close friend then I would most likely be there to support such a fight as I have neither Id take the easy route of playing the current version of the game and probably just nabbing new oxps as they came from the reemerging oolite none elite game.

I suspect as long as no one upsets the apple cart and no money is being made its all just a goodwill project, keeping up anticipation amongst the fans, and introducing newer players to the elite universe - to become elite 4 players when it comes out. At the moment Being as we arent competing with any current games or revenues and we arent trying to profit from a closeness to the original games the original devs can only benefit from the games existance.

[LittleBear]

Although L is correct, all jurisdictions have strike out and summary judgement provisions. So whatever the merits of a action maybe, unless someone actually goes to defend the action an order can go through by default. I don't think anyone involved with Oolite would really want to go down that route, so letting sleeping dogs alone is probabley the best approach.

In fairness to the DB though, I'm sure he must be aware of Oolite and hasn't yet done anything, so I think its safe to conclude that he tolerates it. After all it free and very much acknolleges the work of B&B rather than rippping it off and many writers refer to them by naming Stations after them or other nods to them. And of course Oolite doesn't use any of the orginal code, which is what seemed to have got DB's deadly goat over ETNK.

The state of 'Fan Fiction' is always a bit doubious moral rights wise, but generally companies tolerate it as long as its free. A lot of players were not around when Elite came out and have been introduced to the Elite Universe by Oolite and would buy Elite IV (if it ever arrived) on the strength of the fun they had with Oolite. So I suspect he's probabley not that displeased that Oolite keeps interest in Elite current.

Oolite does use the orginal mission descriptions (which DB would be entitled to stop if he wanted) and probabley the names and shapes of the ships and planets too. Whilst if he did take a point they could be renamed and new ships added instead, it would be a shame to lose the link to Elite with the Cobra III, Lave etc.