extra fuel tank functionality in the game core ?

Solas · Post by **Solas** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:30 pm

Is it planned to integrate extra fuel tank functionality into the game core ?
Plane pilots have had this functionality since WW2.

paraphrasing from the OXP authors site ..
the Fuel Tank is fitted on a ship's weapon pylon and holds 3 ly of witchdrive fuel that may be transferred to the main tank.
This is useful for long voyages and especially as an emergency reserve.

http://www.arcadia-digital.net/steve/Oolite/Oolite.html
click on Equipment to find full description and download.

toconn · Post by **toconn** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:34 pm

If I remember rightly, didn't Frontier introduce the concept of different ships having different sized fuel tanks to allow for bigger jumps ?

Wiki pages · Post by **Thargoid** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:38 pm

There's a whole slew of new equipment available now, often using a similar method to that pioneered by the fuel tank.

I wouldn't say that any of it particularly merits inclusion into the core as being a must-have (fuel drop-tanks aren't the only currently real thing that has been added by OXP), but the method and cosmetics of triggering such equipment via the missile pylons could do with a tweak. And some suggestions about that have already been made to various members of the dev team.

Solas · Post by **Solas** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:58 pm

In suggesting fuel drop-tank functionality in the game core my intent was not to detract from the contributions made by authors of other fuel related OXPs.
In fact having used the fuel tank OXP and found it so invaluable I never investigated or downloaded any other fuel related OXP.
Having done so now I see the you have created the Fuel Station .. a worthy OXP addition.

The fact is that after a long hyperspace jump, when fuel is depleted and danger looms, a fuel drop-tank is worth it's weight in gold.
Players flying ships with few external pylons ( examples .. Adder, Asp, Swift, Viper .. all with one ) may very well not opt for a drop-tank.
However, if I had to recommend a single expansion pack it would be the Fuel Tank. Hence my suggestion of it's integration into the game core.

Wiki pages · Post by **Thargoid** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:56 pm

I didn't mean it as in "my OXP is better than that" (because I'd be the first to acknowledge it may well not be, and indeed fuel tank is a template OXP I often do use). I was thinking more that whilst the fuel tank has its uses, it's not essential (I rarely use them to be honest). Plus it can have a detrimental effect on at least one built-in mission (Nova).

I would say it should be a little more general discussion than should a particular equipment item (or OXP) be included, but what new functionality could/should be put into the core. It may already exist (as in the fuel tank), or it may need some new code work (as in the upcoming wormhole scanner). My meaning was that it should be a wider discussion generally.

Solas · Post by **Solas** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:24 pm

it can have a detrimental effect on at least one built-in mission (Nova).

I'm sure that could be overcome .. maybe no Nova until no fuel reserves.

My meaning was that it should be a wider discussion generally.

I wouldn't dream of arguing with that

Cmdr Wyvern · Post by **Cmdr Wyvern** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:45 pm

toconn wrote:
If I remember rightly, didn't Frontier introduce the concept of different ships having different sized fuel tanks to allow for bigger jumps ?

No, not exactly. Frontier set it up so that fuel was stored in the cargo hold.
The cargo hold in Frontier was any space left over after equipping the ship. What struck me as odd - not to mention irritating - was that externally mounted kit, such as missiles, also took up cargo room.

But then, Frontier's whole model sucked on multiple levels, as in, what the hell was Breadbin smoking?

Ramirez · Post by **Ramirez** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:10 pm

Here's my take on this: The Fuel Tank OXP was created to try and implement a refuelling system using existing script functions without needing a change to the game code. As such its a bit of a workaround (a bodge job, to be more accurate). The method I settled on was to use a pylon-mounted mine, a trick I've since used in lots of other situations where I want the player to be able to trigger a specific action at any time. Unintentionally, this also helps to balance the game a bit, as forcing a player to choose between lots of extra fuel or missiles stops the game from becoming too easy (though I accept the point about the Nova mission conflict).

Like many OXPs, implementing this into the game core would only consist of adding the relevant bits and pieces into the config docs, and it wouldn't really make a great difference to players. Personally I'm happy enough for the Fuel Tank to be regarded as a highly-recommended but optional OXP. Even though it works OK, I wouldn't recommend adding it to the Oolite package until a more streamlined solution has been developed.

As Thargoid mentioned, a more important debate is on how to manage player-triggered equipment more generally.

Solas · Post by **Solas** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:35 am

Hi Ramirez, thanks for your observations and of course the Fuel Tank OXP

I wouldn't regard it as a bodge job .. an external pylon is the normal place for a drop tank.
I look forward to it's possible integration after informed consensus regarding managing player-triggered equipment.

Post by **Cmdr James** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:18 am

What is the advantage of this being part of oolite, rather than an OXP? Generally, very few not-elite ships and equipment are in the core game, and I think thats a good thing. It gives people choice. And it gives people elite, almost as they remember it.

Some feature, like the wormhole scanner, must be added to the core game as they are not doable in an OXP, which is why they are added.

Gimi · Post by **Gimi** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:18 am

Cmdr James wrote:
What is the advantage of this being part of oolite, rather than an OXP? Generally, very few not-elite ships and equipment are in the core game, and I think thats a good thing. It gives people choice. And it gives people elite, almost as they remember it.

Some feature, like the wormhole scanner, must be added to the core game as they are not doable in an OXP, which is why they are added.

Good point and I agree, however what I really would like to see are internal equipment slots added to core. Adding all this equipment to missile positions is not realistic.
If we could have X number (or unlimited) of internal equipment bays with a way of selecting that equipment or even assigning keys to the equipment it would be great. I know assigning keys is bound to cause conflicts, but there must be a way around that by using the forums or a table on the Wiki. There could even be a set key to activate a given slot and thus if a cobra has 6 equipment slots, 6 predefined keys activate them. People who want to can edit the keyconfig.plist to throw everything around anyway.

In my view this would achieve much the same as adding stuff to core, but with the added flexibility of using OXP's.

Solas · Post by **Solas** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:21 am

What is the advantage of this being part of oolite, rather than an OXP? Generally, very few not-elite ships and equipment are in the core game, and I think thats a good thing. It gives people choice. And it gives people elite, almost as they remember it.
Some feature, like the wormhole scanner, must be added to the core game as they are not doable in an OXP, which is why they are added.

For me it boils down to .. 'faithful game recreation' vs 'gameplay' ( drop tanks should have been in Elite having been available for planes since WW2 era ).

If I remember correctly the Quirium Cascade Mine wasn't available in Elite, should we move that out of the core into an OXP ?

Post by **another_commander** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:52 am

Sure, we can comment out all the quirium cascade mine related code and leave it to OXP creators, but then how can the expanding blue sphere effect be implemented using just JavaScript? How exactly can we show on the scanner the yellow/red flashing stick representing the q-bomb about to go off? Once out of the core code, the q-mine can not be implemented as it stands now. The point (or one of the points) in Cmdr James' post is that there is no need to spend time and resources in order to bring into the core game something that is already well achievable with an OXP (and break the Nova mission by doing so, in the particular case of the fuel tank). We can spend this time for fixing bugs and adding in features that are not achievable by OXPing instead.

Solas · Post by **Solas** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:22 pm

I hadn't realised that it was so difficult or time consuming to integrate drop-tank functionality into the core.
If I presented tested code to properly integrate the fuel tank OXP into the core would it then be considered ?

Post by **Cmdr James** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:32 pm

By adding them to the core game, we make it much harder for people to remove them. We run the risk of breaking missions (including nova), and possibly messing up other OXPs that assume a maximum of 7ly of fuel.

What is the advantage of adding them? I really dont get why you would want them in the core game, there is really no clear advantage over the OXP. I can understand a desire for variable size fuel tank between different ships, but that isnt what we are talking about.

We could add them with almost zero effort, simply by bundling the OXP with the official release -- but the project normally does not work this way (debug oxp is the only one, as far as I know). We intentionally leave any OXP stuff as optional. Almost all of the non-elite things in oolite can only be done in the core game: wormhole scanner, q-mine, plasma guns, shipyard.

I strongly prefer to keep things which can be done in OXP out of the core game. It improves choice, keeps enhancements open -- anyone who doesnt like drop tanks can change them -- make them a full 7ly or whatever. That wont be so easy if its core.

I also do not accept that they should have been in elite. To my mind they dont add much, you can already fuel scoop for more fuel as needed, and I dont remember having injectors anyway (which are the main reason for wanting fuel).