Docking

[Thargoid]

I play Oolite with a laptop and keyboard only...

[Thargoid]

Oops, double-post

[tomsk]

Too slow?? The computer docking is instantaneous. I guess you mean the autodoc with “C”??

Yep. The shift-D instant dock only works with stations (and adds 20 minutes of oolite time)

[KZ9999]

How about this with the ongoing docking issue - paying launch control to dock for you.

Since Oolite 1.73 is introducing Station Launch Control as a requirement for manual docking, I was thinking why not take it a bit further and offer the option totally automate the process. Say for a fee of 5-20 credits (the safer the system the cheaper it is to dock), you can pay launch control to dock your ship. By offering this process, it encourages people to learn how to dock to save money; and for those who don't want to learn, then they have to start earning fast to be able to pay for a docking computer.

Since the game already docking player ships with the docking computer, I wouldn't think it would take much to expand the code to support this option. Use [shift][L] to request a docking window where they state the cost of automated option as part of the message, then [C] or [shift][D] to request for an automated docking. You could go even one step further an remove this option from low tech worlds as they aren't advanced enough to maintain such a complex system.

After all commercial aircraft already support automated take-off and landing via airport support systems, why shouldn't be available in the 32 century starships.

[another_commander]

Since Oolite 1.73 is introducing Station Launch Control as a requirement for manual docking,

Docking Clearance exists already in 1.72 and is disabled by default. The relevant wiki page contains already instructions on how to activate it. There are no current plans to enable it by default for v1.73.

[Disembodied]

Good stuff, then. So much for my "original" idea A plea, though - when you're doing the docking practice, please bear in mind that some old sticks in the mud like me don't have joysticks (or a mouse that will work in Oolite).

I say go ahead and make your own OXP to give a starting player a docking computer, in return for taking a small (and possibly slightly instructive) mission – maybe one that requires docking at a non-rotating object like a rock hermit. Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred schools of thought contend, as Chairman Mao said. Except he didn't mean it, and I do.

Manual docking is undoubtedly an important skill. Like Tomsk says, the DC can always get damaged. But I think something like your proposed OXP could be an important way to get brand-new players into Oolite. Great though it is, if you're coming to Oolite cold, without the knowledge from weeks and months and years of playing Elite, it is definitely a slow starter. You launch, you fly somewhere totally safe (probably getting mass-locked a bunch of times), you approach the station ... you come around to dock ... and you screw it up and have to start again. There might well be people who'll say, "Nah" at that point, and I think that would be a shame. If some people need, or want, a shortcut into the fun, is that such a bad thing?

Back in the day there was no competition to Elite. This is a different age, and there's a lot more competition for today's short short attention spans (when I were a lad, the internet was only on for three hours a day ... black and white it was. We used to put on our Sunday best to log on, etc.).

[Gimi]

If somebody makes an OXP that gives you a DC from start, how about making it much more likely to break down, or less reliable. Maybe it only works in safe systems. Might balance the game somewhat. They have to learn eventually, but the game allows more time and play in the process.

[Disembodied]

If somebody makes an OXP that gives you a DC from start, how about making it much more likely to break down, or less reliable. Maybe it only works in safe systems. Might balance the game somewhat. They have to learn eventually, but the game allows more time and play in the process.

I don't think the game needs to be balanced here. Players will have to learn manual docking eventually, because the DC will get damaged at some point. Most players buy a DC pretty early on in their career: I don't see any gameplay need to *make* them learn to live without it at the start, when it would be most useful.

Maybe, though, a Beginner's OXP could give a DC for the duration of the mission: it gets taken away at the end. Whatever the mission is, perhaps it needs someone clean, unknown and a little bit naive. The player finds out at the end that they've been played for a patsy: not a bad way to begin a career, from a narrative point of view!

Whoever it is that's providing the DC is doing so because whatever it is they're getting the player to do, they don't want it messed up by some rookie plastering himself all over the side of a Coriolis. They'll come across as real friendly, with some good advice and a free piece of kit, but at the end of the day the player winds up in some sort of difficulty – perhaps a little wiser, but hardly better off than when they started. I don't think, for a beginning mission, that the player should face masive problems: they're unwittingly involved in some petty crime, at most. Carrying stolen goods from a selection of rock-hermit dropoff points in to the station, say. They end up with a severe reprimand from GalCop: "... we're pretty sure that you're not bad. You're just dumb. But we'll be watching you from now on." They're made to work on cleaning out the docking bay for a week – during which time they get to see their erstwhile "partner" sloping off free and clear, with a cheery wave over their shoulder. Not a penalty in the game, as such – it's confined to a text screen and a winding forward of the clock – but a blow to the ego. And maybe eventually they'll be able to take some sort of revenge ...

The details would need to be worked out, but such a start would have the advantage of a) letting the player play for a bit, to see what it is they can hope to work towards, and b) involving them imaginatively in the game.

[Gimi]

The details would need to be worked out, but such a start would have the advantage of a) letting the player play for a bit, to see what it is they can hope to work towards, and b) involving them imaginatively in the game.

Which achieves the same thing as I suggested, time to get into the game, but they have to learn manual docking eventually. I'm not to particular on how this is done, but I think that any OXP that takes away the need to dock manually completely tilts the balance of the game (not much, but enough to be avoided). So your solution would work also and maybe better.

[Kaks]

Aside for the 'have to learn docking' bit, which I agree with 100%, I always thought of docking as a clever way to familiarise yourself with the controls before trying to take on an enemy ship.

Call me a masochist, but I find manual docking ridiculously easy anyway. At least compared with Elite. In the old days just a minor misalignment made it impossible to dock (there were no helpful station buoys then, just fly close to the station, go straigt down towards the middle of the planet, then dead stop & up again towards the station). These days with a cobra all I do is aim at the docking slot, without worrying too much about the angle, come to a dead stop inches from the opening, and ease myself in, adjusting my fly path to match the movements of the spinnig station.

My maad dogfighting skillz are getting better all the time!

And I find it easier to play oolite with a keyboard. Much more responsive!

Just my 2p,

Kaks.

[Tivva]

Too slow?? The computer docking is instantaneous. I guess you mean the autodoc with “C”??

not quite instant, it takes 20 mins out of 'ooniversal time', so if you're trying to catch a perp someone else could beat you to it....

oops beaten to it by 'Tomsk' - should've read both pages before replying...

[Screet]

Call me a masochist, but I find manual docking ridiculously easy anyway. At least compared with Elite. In the old days just a minor misalignment made it impossible to dock (there were no helpful station buoys then, just fly close to the station, go straigt down towards the middle of the planet, then dead stop & up again towards the station). These days with a cobra all I do is aim at the docking slot, without worrying too much about the angle, come to a dead stop inches from the opening, and ease myself in, adjusting my fly path to match the movements of the spinnig station.

Yes, exactly. Nowadays sticks make things so very easy to match rotation. I've flown a Caduceus manually into a docking bay and stopped it before docking while being within the bay in order to have looks from the outside as to how big the Caduceus is compared to the docking bay. No problem!

Furthermore, with some OXPs it can be desireable to dock on a ship...and ships docks are much smaller than a stations dock! In one case I even had do use fuel injectors in order to be fast enough to dock on that ship, as it did not want to wait for me. Things like docking with a Jabberwocky on a moving Constitution...

I would not have been able to do such things right from the beginning, it's just that practise leads to learning, thus to improvement and then one acquires really vital skills. I doubt anyone who plays with a DC from the beginning on will really be happy, as such a person would suffer seriously once the DC gets damaged. To me it's just a little annoyance because of the money lost.

Indeed, when I cannot shift-d to dock instantly, I dock manually. It's much faster than having that slow computer trying to do the work and even gives me less adrenaline (as the computer sometimes does strange moves and I fear it might crash).

Maybe the idea with a dc for a brief time is an idea. However, I guess it's more the psychological point for people who knew the old elite and thus might get afraid when they think about learning to dock. However, a player who's unable to do it manually will have really a lot of trouble in this game later on. Thus it's best to train it well right at the beginning, as then all fear will be gone and the game can be enjoyed much more!

Screet

[Disembodied]

Docking is easy, once you get the hang of it. But the controls in Elite/Oolite are unusual: pitch and roll, rather than pitch and yaw, is uncommon. Recent polls on the forum have shown that we have very few people who didn't play the original (at least, we have very few people who didn't play the original who are actively posting on the forum – there might be loads of younger people playing the game). A small introductory mission, which kicks off right from the word go in Lave, which lets people with no previous experience get used to the controls and gets them involved in the gameplay, as well as perhaps providing a few in-game pointers to the basics, would be a good idea, I think.

Unless there's involvement from the off, then people have no real reason to practice. If they don't know what they're missing, there's no reason for them to try to learn. Think of it like bait in a trap.

[Screet]

Docking is easy, once you get the hang of it. But the controls in Elite/Oolite are unusual: pitch and roll, rather than pitch and yaw, is uncommon.

The pitch/roll combination isn't that uncommon. Every atmospheric flight simulator is built in that way! yaw is rudder control. After all, oolite is a flight simulator, although atmospheric rides currently do nothing more than heating up the ship (and most probably never will do anything more, because it's too complex with nothing to gain by adding such complexity).

Guess what? I've got my stick set up just the same as with M$ FSX, although I use yaw much more often than rudder control in FSX, and I wouldn't even like to have it the other way around. Matching rotational speed is also much easier with pitch/roll instead of pitch/yaw setup of the stick, but that's not the reason for the axis assignment I use.

Screet

[MKG]

Well, a couple of replies made me feel guilty about fixing a docking computer, so I went back to square one. Started again. Practiced a few times at Lave, and I could just about get in most times - but I didn't enjoy the wrestling with the controls. Anyway, off I went to Zaonce with a cargo (having sold off all my pylon-mounted stuff), took the 90 degree course to avoid trouble, got to the station, went to the buoy, lined up perfectly, approached slowly, did final corrections, matched roll - and then something coming out of the station hit me right on the nose. Press Space, Commander.

This is fun? I'm not criticising the ethos of Oolite being an Elite-faithful clone, but this was a problem with Elite in the first place. AND I took the easy approach route, which I sincerely doubt would occur to any newbie. The first-timer route would be straight for the planet. Assuming said newbie managed to get past all of the pitfalls which can occur on that route (which can take twenty minutes if you get a similar ship in front of you also using the route - and remember the "don't shoot if you're a newbie" philosophy) and then did the line-up routine (slowly, oh so slowly, because that's what a newbie would do), then an emerging ship up the jaxie would not be a come-on for continued play. Most likely scenario - newbie says "sod this for a bunch of prunes" and fires up a game which is somewhat more forgiving.

Problems - enjoyable problems - are for later, when a player has gained experience and skill. So, I think I'm right in my attitude - there should be an alternative to the pot-luck manual docking method. So I think I will write that OXP, if only to gain some experience in writing OXPs. I'm sure it'll never see the light of day (c'mon, Thargoid, beat me to it ), but it'll make me feel better. Finding milk-runs and trading up is a long enough and hard enough process all by itself.

There - now I feel released.

Mike