OS wars

Captain Hesperus · Post by **Captain Hesperus** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Found a promo picture of the new 2009 Mac:

As cutting-edge as ever. <dons asbestos suit>

Captain Hesperus

wackyman465 · Post by **wackyman465** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:59 pm

@Wyvern: But everybody loves firefox, right? Right? Right...?

@unpronounceable name dude: But I don't bootcamp to windows. I use VMware, and even when I do that, windows runs 1/4th the speed of my comp normally.

Website · Post by **DaddyHoggy** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:51 pm

@Cap'n H - I used to have one of those but one day it wooden boot up...

Cmd. Cheyd · Post by **Cmd. Cheyd** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:29 am

BTW guys - It's pronounced the same as "Shade" Don't worry about the lastname.

Firefox... Doesn't scare, but certainly got them off their asses and got IE moving again.
Google.... The 8000 lb. Gorrilla that the DoJ is ignoring.
Ubuntu, Debian, RedHat... Proof positive MS isn't a monopoly.
VMWare... They do, or at least should, scare them.
Java... Sun... (YAWN)
WINE... Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And shows the kiddies just want to play with Big Boys ball.
GNU/Linux... See comments above.
Flash... Pisses MS off. MS never would have developed Silverlight if Adobe would fix the damn exploits in Flash that have existed for YEARS.
ODF - EEE-PC... None Issues
(utter lack of) Security... FUD. Old and well-disproven.
Nintendo... Look the the cute little kid trying to play ball with the big kids... Isn't he cute?!?
Playstation... Great competition. Not sure it scares, but definately pushes them.
Convicted Predatory Monopolist. BS label tacked on for BS reasons. They should have known it was coming though, since MS didn't contribute to either political party (until after the lawsuit) unlike everyone that when whining to the DOJ.

Just MHO.

@Wackyman - Run an OS inside a VM, and it's slower... Hmm... Go figure....

Captain Hesperus · Post by **Captain Hesperus** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:27 am

DaddyHoggy wrote:
@Cap'n H - I used to have one of those but one day it wooden boot up...

Might be a problem with the 'chips'.

Captain Hesperus

Cmdr Wyvern · Post by **Cmdr Wyvern** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:08 pm

Nice try ace, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to roll an industrial lawnmower over your astroturf.

Cmd. Cheyd Vlos'Olplyn wrote:
Firefox... Doesn't scare, but certainly got them off their asses and got IE moving again.

Riiiiight. When they did kickstart development on IE again, for some odd reason they decided to copy some of Firefox's UI features, tabs being one, and tried to make it sound like they invented the idea. Unfortunately, they failed to get Firefox's extendability down, and they kept that PITA open hole for drive-by malware attacks, namely activeX. Hmm, smells like fear to me.

Google.... The 8000 lb. Gorrilla that the DoJ is ignoring.

What does Google do that's such a threat, hmm? Search. That's it, search. Nevermind that Google just happens to be damn good at search, and that just happens to attract the admongers. Everything else Google does is free, and one can't build much of a monopoly on free.
In comparison, MS recently tried to -pay- ppl to use their search engine, which is still quite difficult and irritating to use. Then there's that whole thing with MS trying to embrace, extend, and extinguish Yahoo. I'm not sure if that's funny, sad, or just plain desperate.

Ubuntu, Debian, RedHat... Proof positive MS isn't a monopoly.

MS using SCO, Novell, and patent scares to attack RedHat, Oracle, and other Linux vendors. Ballmer thinking RedHat should pay his sorry arse. And Mono, which I consider to be patent-encumbered poisonware and personally refuse to have anywhere near my systems. Gee, is that a quiver in Ballmer's boots?

VMWare... They do, or at least should, scare them.

They do. So much so, that MS has been trying to undermine VMWare's business.

Java... Sun... (YAWN)

Back atcha. MS attempted to embrace, extend, & eliminate Java, and was caught at it. Anyone remember MS Java Virtual Machine and how it was suddenly nonexistant? MS hasn't stopped trying to erase Java, though; that's what .Net and C# is all about. OpenOffice is another reason for MS to hate Sun.

WINE... Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And shows the kiddies just want to play with Big Boys ball.

uuumm...No. Linux users still find a use for some windows software, and maybe don't want to bother with dualbooting or VMs. That's the reason for WINE's existence. From what I hear, WINE is a PITA to develop, and it's surely a PITA to use. But honestly, if there wasn't a use for it, would anyone bother? I don't think so.

GNU/Linux... See comments above.

See mine. Furthermore, Ballmer himself called Linux his #1 competitor, among some rather crude slurs. For a company that at one time claimed to not see linux as a threat, they sure exhaust a lot of resources attempting to remove linux from the equation.

Flash... Pisses MS off. MS never would have developed Silverlight if Adobe would fix the damn exploits in Flash that have existed for YEARS.

Flash exploits is a likely excuse, but unfortunately, so much bovine fertilizer. Considering the track record of secure MS products - EPICALLY POOR - I strongly suspect Silverlight brings a ton of zero-day holes of it's own.

ODF - EEE-PC... None Issues

More bovine fertilizer. MS went out of it's way to corrupt ISO and get so-called "open" XML pushed through, trying to kill off ODF.
MS went out of it's way to get XP preloaded onto the EEE, fortunately Asus makes that optional.
"No issues", my arse.

(utter lack of) Security... FUD. Old and well-disproven.

Yet more bovine fertilizer. Give those cows a rest, man!
How many known viruses, exploits, spyware, malware, trojans, worms, backdoors, drive-bys, ect are out there for windows? How huge are the spam-spewing windows botnets getting? How often are machines running windows pwned? Sorry, to call the well known security problems FUD is living in a state of denial.
To hook a windows machine into the net without a firewall and antivirus app, is like a naive young lass walking nude into a Hell's Angels HQ - pwnage is pretty much guaranteed. That's the hard fact.
Nevermind marketshare, the reason windows is so often exploited is simply because it's too easy to exploit windows.

Nintendo... Look the the cute little kid trying to play ball with the big kids... Isn't he cute?!?

Mock Nintendo all you want. They're onto something; that wireless flying mouse controller is pretty innovative. I suspect MS would try to copy it for the Sidewinder line... Oh, right, MS killed off the Sidewinder line.
No matter. The last time MS tried to be innovative, we got...MS Bob.

Playstation... Great competition. Not sure it scares, but definately pushes them.

It should scare. It's a reliable machine, very few problems reported with it. What does MS try to counter it with? A machine known best for scratching up the game CDs, suddenly and epically dying (RRoD syndrome), crashing, overheating, and on a couple of instances exploding into flame! WTF?!

Convicted Predatory Monopolist. BS label tacked on for BS reasons. They should have known it was coming though, since MS didn't contribute to either political party (until after the lawsuit) unlike everyone that when whining to the DOJ.

What a load! It was fair and square. MS was caught with their bloody little paws in the cookie jar, AFTER those same paws got bloodied in a death-grip on Netscape. THAT's what got the DOJ's attention. I don't think the DOJ landed on them hard enough.
Let's ask Nellie Croes of the EC what she thinks. I'm sure MS can afford yet another million dollar fine for defying court orders.

Just MIHO.

-- Wyvern

Cmd. Cheyd · Post by **Cmd. Cheyd** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:31 pm

Firefox/IE - Tabs were a natural evolution of web browsers. Yes, FF had it first. As is typical of OSS/CSS development, OSS releases new "versions" more frequently, but with fewer deltas between those versions. CSS typically releases fewer "versions" but with greater deltas. Both are excellent browsers, with areas of strength and weakness. ActiveX(AX) isn't a security hole anymore than FF extensions are. But because AX integrates closer/more with the shell and enjoys a significantly larger market share, it is an attractive target.

Google - FAIL. Google does more than search; as you said, it's just free stuff. "one can't build much of a monopoly on free." - Tell that to Microsoft and the IE team. Apparently you can according to the DOJ. 8000 lb Gorilla - 'Nuf said.

Ubuntu / Deb / RH - If they infringe a patent, they SHOULD pay. Thats why copyright law (as screwed up as it is in the U.S.) exists. Not saying they do. I'm saying *** IF ***. But back to my original point - They are proof positive that anyone can come along, write an OS, market a competitive product, and potentially succeed. They're doing great. Barrier to entry - Bovine Fecal Material.

Java/Sun - Java was a great idea. When MS embraced / extended, they were doing it better than Sun was at the time. The DOJ trial made MS quit distributing the JVM. As for Sun themselves, they fear MS. Not the other way around.

WINE - Sorry, this part (not what you said, but the attitude surrounding WINE) pisses me off. If a Linux user has a "use for Windows" it's considered that - Just needing it as a tool. But my gods... If a Windows user has a use for Linux - "Call the frelling press!!!!! Alert the TV stations!!! This is proof that Windows sucks and Linux is winning!!!" Please!?! As for your points, I don't use WINE. As for it being a pain to develop for or use, is that Windows fault, or WINE's? I honestly can't say, but my inkling says - If using an emulator sucks, but using the original is easy... Blame the emulator.

Flash - When a company (Macromedia / Adobe) knows of an exploit in it's product for years, and refuses to fix it, and another company (MS) says "Hey, here's a market we can move into". Yeah, I don't see that as scaring MS into making Silverlight. I see it as a mark of sound business. Will it bring it's own zero-day exploits - I'm sure. Every web technology does. The question becomes how long it takes those to be fixed. Flash's case, that number is currently INFINITY (because they aren't being fixed).

ODF - EEE PC - None issues. They don't compete with MS so there's no reason for them to be scared by them. ODF/OXML - Either way, the Office suite will support them. EEE - Doesn't scare, but it's a business opportunity. They would be remiss if they didn't try and get XP on there.

Security - MS has been improving for years on this. Last 5 or so have seen MAJOR advances. Most exploits / etc don't come from the base OS anymore. They are from add-ons or Stupid User Tricks. Social Engineering has always, and will always, be THE most effective hacking tool there is. That's not MS's fault. As Ron White says - "You can't fix stupid." Also, there will always be more malware written and focused on any product that hold 93% of the marketshare. That's just good business for the RBN/Malware producers. The Law of numbers. As for hooking a Windows machine to the net without a firewall (impossible since XP SP2 without intentionally doing so) is stupid. Hence why MS made Windows Firewall. I've operated since 2000 without a locally installed AV, and run a Windows-based firewall product. Never had a virus. So that disproves your "it's too easy to exploit windows" arguement. Security has less to do with the machine, and more to do with the person.

Ninetendo - Truth be told, I own a Wii. But currently, their success is all centered on first-party titles. They aren't a real competitor (currently) to MS. The next generation of consoles, I'll see them as much more a competitor. As for the controller, they just took a gyro-mouse (been around since 1990's) and made it a game controller. Yes, I do see MS and Sony both copying on next gen consoles. Likewise, I expect to see Ninetendo stealing a few ideas from them. That's business. MS Bob - Actually, I worked with a guy at MS (Yes, I'm a former employee) who was named Bob. We all called him by that... Hehehe... It wasn't their last time to innovate, but yes, that product was a true steaming pile... hehehe.

Playstation - It's competition, as I said. Competition doesn't scare companies. Competition without a truely viable competing product does. X360 competes well with the PS3. As for the X360 RRoD - Yep. No arguements. I'll even give you some more ammo - Their choice of HD-DVD was a bad one. But I think Sony used it's market position in media, music, etc to force the success of BR over HD. For those of you reading carefully - Yes, I just accused Sony of monopoly behavior.

Monopolist - You and I will NEVER see this the same. When a judge sleeps through the testimony given in a case, you can't call it a "fair trial". As for bloodied claws and Netscape... As you said above - "You can't build much of a monopoly on free." MS just had a better business model than Netscape. Back when, Netscape was charging $40 for a browser, and charging thousands for web servers. MS decided to give both away for free, but charge the ISP's for advertising by putting them on the ICW provider list. Better business model, plain and simple. In turn, it gave them time to improve their product. Lower cost but lower quality, or higher cost with higher quality. That's market place strategy / dynamics. Nutscrape lost plain and simple.

@Wyvern - It's been fun. Not sure I'll keep this rolling cause my training ends today, and it's back to the office on Monday. If not, I had fun. It's been lighthearted on my part. Just trying to provide a good foil for you to spar with. Have a good weekend.

Cmdr Wyvern · Post by **Cmdr Wyvern** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:19 am

Cmd. Cheyd Vlos'Olplyn wrote:
Firefox/IE - Tabs were a natural evolution of web browsers. Yes, FF had it first. As is typical of OSS/CSS development, OSS releases new "versions" more frequently, but with fewer deltas between those versions. CSS typically releases fewer "versions" but with greater deltas. Both are excellent browsers, with areas of strength and weakness. ActiveX(AX) isn't a security hole anymore than FF extensions are. But because AX integrates closer/more with the shell and enjoys a significantly larger market share, it is an attractive target.

Mostly agreed.
The possibility of a firefox extension containing, or being a port for malware is there, definitely. But firefox, like oolite, is multiplatform. An extension that runs a malware attack on windows can't attack the other platforms ff gets installed on, and vice versa. At any rate, word in the extension community about a poisoned extension would spread quickly - "This is a virus! Don't download!"
It's a different story for AX. It's on by default, the user has to dig through the settings menus to turn it off, and all it takes is visiting a website hosting malware to be had via AX - The drive-by attack has been around since AX was introduced.

Google - FAIL. Google does more than search; as you said, it's just free stuff. "one can't build much of a monopoly on free." - Tell that to Microsoft and the IE team. Apparently you can according to the DOJ. 8000 lb Gorilla - 'Nuf said.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Google.
BUT - Is IE really all that free? I think not. The price for it gets included in the whole windows bundle. And my biggest peeve with that plan, I don't get to refuse. Instead, I have to rip IE/OE out by the roots using nLite, which is what I did to the XP gaming machine. I have no intention of connecting the gaming box to the net, so web apps of any kind are completely unnecessary resource hogs. It has no web services at all, not even a network card. All that's left in it is the minimum it needs to run games. No, I don't get into online MMORGS. Oldskool single-player diehard combat flight simmer here, and I don't believe in paying multiple times over for a game.
IMHO, MS is being incredibly stupid in trying to kill XP off in favor of vista. Vista is an unperformer; like a brightly painted car with no engine, it looks good but has no go. While XP is like a rusty Civic with a smallblock V8 shoehorned into it; not too pretty but it seriously hauls.

Ubuntu / Deb / RH - If they infringe a patent, they SHOULD pay. Thats why copyright law (as screwed up as it is in the U.S.) exists. Not saying they do. I'm saying *** IF ***. But back to my original point - They are proof positive that anyone can come along, write an OS, market a competitive product, and potentially succeed. They're doing great. Barrier to entry - Bovine Fecal Material.

The various and sundry linux distros are steaming right along, true. Ironically, MS offered some unexpected assist in vista being so damned bad. Yet, linux steams along regardless of MS being openly hostile to linux, and attempting to stifle and FUD it at every turn.

Java/Sun - Java was a great idea. When MS embraced / extended, they were doing it better than Sun was at the time. The DOJ trial made MS quit distributing the JVM. As for Sun themselves, they fear MS. Not the other way around.

MS attempted to make Java a windows-only app, opposed to the original premise of 'write once, run anywhere' that Java was created under. MS backstabbed Sun and broke the licensing agreement. I doubt Sun fears them, but no doubt on my part that Sun will ever trust them again.

WINE - Sorry, this part (not what you said, but the attitude surrounding WINE) pisses me off. If a Linux user has a "use for Windows" it's considered that - Just needing it as a tool. But my gods... If a Windows user has a use for Linux - "Call the frelling press!!!!! Alert the TV stations!!! This is proof that Windows sucks and Linux is winning!!!" Please!?! As for your points, I don't use WINE. As for it being a pain to develop for or use, is that Windows fault, or WINE's? I honestly can't say, but my inkling says - If using an emulator sucks, but using the original is easy... Blame the emulator.

An emulator not only virtualizes the operating environment, it virtualizes the hardware the environment runs on.
DOSbox is an emulator. MAME is an emulator. QEMU is an emulator; they all recreate hardware in virtual form.
WINE isn't an emulator, it's a sort of translator. It only recreates the operating environment, and translates Win API calls to something Linux can understand. no hardware is virtualized at all; what hardware you have in the machine is what WINE uses.
And WINE runs windows apps, not windows itself. It's useful in say, someone wants to run Photoshop on linux, for example. Someone might want to fire up a win32 app without having to log out and reboot into XP, or switching machines, or messing with a VM, is that so hard to grasp?

Flash - When a company (Macromedia / Adobe) knows of an exploit in it's product for years, and refuses to fix it, and another company (MS) says "Hey, here's a market we can move into". Yeah, I don't see that as scaring MS into making Silverlight. I see it as a mark of sound business. Will it bring it's own zero-day exploits - I'm sure. Every web technology does. The question becomes how long it takes those to be fixed. Flash's case, that number is currently INFINITY (because they aren't being fixed).

That one goes both ways. There's bugs in XP - and possibly vista - that have been around since 95 or earlier, that MS simply decided they're not bothering to fix. The Blaster worm exploited one of those old bugs.

ODF - EEE PC - None issues. They don't compete with MS so there's no reason for them to be scared by them. ODF/OXML - Either way, the Office suite will support them. EEE - Doesn't scare, but it's a business opportunity. They would be remiss if they didn't try and get XP on there.

ODF is a truely open standard. OXML isn't open at all. MS just called it open to create confusion and undermine ODF - a plot to destroy ODF that didn't work. That MS spread some bribes around and undermined the ISO to do so is the most telling issue.
EEE-PC is designed and built around lightweight, minimalist hardware. It's nowhere near the horsepower of a full-sized laptop, nor was it meant to be. It's just enough for on-the-go web browsing and email, and maybe working on small documents. That's all it needs to do, and the modular design of linux makes that possible. Asking it to run XP... Well, it's a doable - barely, with not much resources left to spare. The more 'elbow room' windows has, the better it runs, that's pretty well known. XP is hard put to find that room on a EEE.

Security - MS has been improving for years on this. Last 5 or so have seen MAJOR advances. Most exploits / etc don't come from the base OS anymore. They are from add-ons or Stupid User Tricks. Social Engineering has always, and will always, be THE most effective hacking tool there is. That's not MS's fault. As Ron White says - "You can't fix stupid." Also, there will always be more malware written and focused on any product that hold 93% of the marketshare. That's just good business for the RBN/Malware producers. The Law of numbers. As for hooking a Windows machine to the net without a firewall (impossible since XP SP2 without intentionally doing so) is stupid. Hence why MS made Windows Firewall. I've operated since 2000 without a locally installed AV, and run a Windows-based firewall product. Never had a virus. So that disproves your "it's too easy to exploit windows" arguement. Security has less to do with the machine, and more to do with the person.

I'll agree about social engineering. Stupid is as stupid does. What part of 'don't open a suspicious looking attachment' hasn't caught on yet? Sheesh.
The 'bigger marketshare, bigger risk' argument is an old one, a favorite of the shills paid to tow the MS party line, and it's full of fallacy. It -is- too easy to exploit windows; driveby attacks and network worms remain a constant problem. If exploiting windows was hard, there wouldn't be such a thing as script-kiddies.
I'm aware of windows firewall, and it falls short of ideal. Why is that it doesn't stop phone-home malware from phoning home, nor is it very good at sealing or stealthing open ports. Better than nothing, I suppose...
Are you sure you don't have an infection? Spyware and some trojans are completely silent to the user, as are zombiebots and the Storm worm. I'd run an antivirus if I were you, just in case, even if it finds zilch.
The only truely secure windows machine is the one totally isolated from the net, like my gaming rig above.

Ninetendo - Truth be told, I own a Wii. But currently, their success is all centered on first-party titles. They aren't a real competitor (currently) to MS. The next generation of consoles, I'll see them as much more a competitor. As for the controller, they just took a gyro-mouse (been around since 1990's) and made it a game controller. Yes, I do see MS and Sony both copying on next gen consoles. Likewise, I expect to see Ninetendo stealing a few ideas from them. That's business. MS Bob - Actually, I worked with a guy at MS (Yes, I'm a former employee) who was named Bob. We all called him by that... Hehehe... It wasn't their last time to innovate, but yes, that product was a true steaming pile... hehehe.

I saw a pic of Ballmer on some site with him wearing glasses. I fell out of my chair, "Holy sh** it's Microsoft Bob!" Hehehe!
Copycatting... Yeah, that goes. I've seen many a PC gamepad controller that's a total clone of the PS or xbox controller. Most clone the PS dual-stick controller. I'm talking almost exact clonage, like they can be plugged into a PS and can be expected to work. That's nice, but give me a HOTAS joystick any day.

Playstation - It's competition, as I said. Competition doesn't scare companies. Competition without a truely viable competing product does. X360 competes well with the PS3. As for the X360 RRoD - Yep. No arguements. I'll even give you some more ammo - Their choice of HD-DVD was a bad one. But I think Sony used it's market position in media, music, etc to force the success of BR over HD. For those of you reading carefully - Yes, I just accused Sony of monopoly behavior.

Agreed about the PS and competition. And note the 'if you can beat 'em, clone 'em' thing going on with the PS controller as I stated above.
HD-DVD - Agreed. Not that I care much about HD and BR, plain old DVD works well enough.
Sony and BR - Agreed again. Sony does act fairly aggressively, especially towards the customers. Need I bring up that underhanded Sony rootkit CD stunt?

oops, I just did! I won't buy another Sony CD because of that.
On that note, I'm calling the entire RIAA a bunch of backstabbing monopolistic untrustworthy weasels.

Monopolist - You and I will NEVER see this the same. When a judge sleeps through the testimony given in a case, you can't call it a "fair trial". As for bloodied claws and Netscape... As you said above - "You can't build much of a monopoly on free." MS just had a better business model than Netscape. Back when, Netscape was charging $40 for a browser, and charging thousands for web servers. MS decided to give both away for free, but charge the ISP's for advertising by putting them on the ICW provider list. Better business model, plain and simple. In turn, it gave them time to improve their product. Lower cost but lower quality, or higher cost with higher quality. That's market place strategy / dynamics. Nutscrape lost plain and simple.

Not so fast.
MS licensed the Mosaic browser from Spyglass. Then, in a shameless act of backstabbery, slapped the MS brand on and renamed Mosaic to IE, and started passing it out free as their own, all in order to deliberately wipe out Netscape. Spyglass got ripped off, not getting a dime out of it. Spyglass later sued on the broken license agreement.

@Wyvern - It's been fun. Not sure I'll keep this rolling cause my training ends today, and it's back to the office on Monday. If not, I had fun. It's been lighthearted on my part. Just trying to provide a good foil for you to spar with. Have a good weekend.

It's good weather this weekend, warm and dry for a change. Good Space Lizard weather.

No hard feelings here.
Later on, I'll want to pick your brains about how windows handles joysticks. Technical curiosity on my part, and a help to the devs. Oolite behaves somewhat strangely/exposes a windows joystick handling weakness. More on that later. TTFN.

-- Wyvern

wackyman465 · Post by **wackyman465** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:21 pm

I have one bit to add to this all: Mac OS X works.

One more: Firefox works, too.

Cmdr Wyvern · Post by **Cmdr Wyvern** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:31 pm

Right Chayd, on to the abovementioned joystick nuisances.

Irritant #1: POV hats
While the option to assign a POV hat to the four gun views is there in Oolite's joystick setup, currently it doesn't work with Oolite running on windows. When the setup option is tried, the POV input is ignored or not recognized as valid by Oolite. It's strange, as the option works flawlessly in any other OS.

I consider this a minor irritant; it can be worked around with the programming software that came with the controller, or using a third-party app like Joy2Key.

Irritant #2: Joystick center drift
This one is the royal PITA.

Oolite on windows doesn't hold true to course with most joysticks; there persists a tendency to drift about randomly even when all axis are neutral. There are no known workarounds short of finding a way to set deadzones at the driver level, or paying out the nose for a high-end controller. Recalibration is not a cure. (The issue doesn't manifest itself for some reason with the X52 or the CH Combatstick, neither of which are very affordable.)
This doesn't happen on the other OSs; only one instance of drift has been reported on the Mac, and that could've been miscalibration.

The obvious relief is to get a top-end controller, but there's the rub. Not everyone has that kind of scratch laying around, and there's a global economic sh**storm going on, you know. That money gets spent on more important things, like food and the mortgage. This X52 wouldn't be in my virtual cockpit if it wasn't gifted to me. (And unless they want to be shipped to the Painful Death Zone, nobody messes with it!)
I'm posting a massive bounty on this irritant. I'd like to see Oolite fly as true for the pilot with a $20 offbrand stick as well as the guy armed with a $400 rebuilt and performance-modded Cougar. This irritant must suffer an existence failure forthwith. Any insight you can give on this is worthwhile, Chayd.

Cmdr Wyvern · Post by **Cmdr Wyvern** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:49 pm

Ye who enter here, abandon all hope.

Cmd. Cheyd · Post by **Cmd. Cheyd** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:47 am

@Wynie - It's Cheyd, not Chayd, just in case that was a mistake.

PoV Hat - Umm... I'm using a Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold USB. $20-25 dollar range according to a quick ebay search. The hat works for me... From what I've read here on the forums, this is already explained. Windows treats a hat switch as a hot switch, but *nix (and by extension, I'm going to assume MacOS) treats it was a pair of microswitches, or something to that effect. I'll search the forums for a link in a minute.

Joystick Drift - This is a PITA for me currently. I can maintain level flight just fine, but if I leave the JS slightly off-center, it's like it's making contact with the sensor on that side and is interpretted as a slight pull in that direction. As for ideas... I'll be honest, I'm a systems admin turned network engineer. Programming is NOT my forte. But I do have a brother-in-law who knows WAY more than I. I'll bug him next holiday.

Cmdr Wyvern · Post by **Cmdr Wyvern** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:24 am

Cmd. Cheyd Vlos'Olplyn wrote:
@Wynie - It's Cheyd, not Chayd, just in case that was a mistake.

Yes, it was. Oops, my bad, sorry about that.

PoV Hat - Umm... I'm using a Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold USB. $20-25 dollar range according to a quick ebay search. The hat works for me... From what I've read here on the forums, this is already explained. Windows treats a hat switch as a hot switch, but *nix (and by extension, I'm going to assume MacOS) treats it was a pair of microswitches, or something to that effect. I'll search the forums for a link in a minute.

From what I've observed, *nix is reporting POV input as a two-axis analog input, reading either zero or full deflection. I can guess OSX treats POVs the same way, though not having access to a Mac I can't confirm.
What XP reports POVs as is a complete mystery. Something Oolite is currently incapable of understanding, that's for sure.

Joystick Drift - This is a PITA for me currently. I can maintain level flight just fine, but if I leave the JS slightly off-center, it's like it's making contact with the sensor on that side and is interpretted as a slight pull in that direction. As for ideas... I'll be honest, I'm a systems admin turned network engineer. Programming is NOT my forte. But I do have a brother-in-law who knows WAY more than I. I'll bug him next holiday.

The drift is a real bugbear for every windows Ooliter, as you can see on the boards here. It would be nice to see that problem given the boot once and for all. TIA for digging up what you can.

Post by **another_commander** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:56 am

What would actually be nice, would be to have more Windows developers with access to joystick hardware. The reason that drift still remains a PITA is because there is no active developer that can test it. For a while drumz was doing some joystick thingamagic on Windows, but has not shown up for quite a while. Any volunteers?

Cmdr Wyvern · Post by **Cmdr Wyvern** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:31 am

@AC
Totally agree. If my coding skills didn't quite honestly suck, I would step up to bat. Although I wouldn't get far; what XP is doing with joystick input, especially POVs, has me stumped.
With any *nix based OS, POVs are interpreted literately as two analog axis. No confusion, it just works. With XP, well I can't figure what the hell it's sending when the POV is wiggled. It looks like an analog axis signal....but it's not. Nor is it quite a button signal. A drunken Vogon trying to sing AC/DC hits would make more sense.

For the meantime, I offer these workarounds.

For the POV problem, use the software that came with the controller to assign F1-F4 keypresses to POV movements. Failing that, Joy2Key does the same thing as the proprietary controller programming software.

I've been using DXTweak2 as a diagnostic utility to read the joystick signals on XP, but it can be used to combat the center drift issue by overriding axis response curves and forcing deadzones at the driver level.

I'm not sure if these utils will work on vista, but give 'em a try.