RFC: Fancy classics

[Simon B]

I've been reading threads about various modifications to the classic line of ships. They definitely have a charm, yet one cannot help but feel that the power of even the simplest modern computers is being under-utilized.

I was caught up by the challenge inherent in re-imagining the classics, keeping the styling while taking advantage of Oolite's advances since Elite came out.

Re-skinning is the obvious one. Long before first posting here I had reskinned all the snake ships in snake-skin patterns - fun, and with varying effect.

Regular readers know that I then changed all the models, leading to the waka ships, arachnid, and typhoon. While these ships could certainly replace their counterparts, they changed the look and feel of the game rather than enhancing it.

Now, more cautiously, I present for discussion, proposed replacements for three classic ships - Anaconda, Boa and Python. Not an OXP - yet. I'm looking for feedback (including critical) and expressions of interest. And, of course, this will add to the morass of discussion on issues surrounding the classic ship models...


(fig 1. Neo Anaconda)

(fig 2. Neo Boa 1)

(fig 3. Neo Python)

The "pointiness" of the ships is part of their charm. Each model started from an approximation of the classic shape, and the basic lines have been adhered to. They are also the same basic dimensions - the anaconda is a bit wider and the boa a bit longer.

One of the advantages of the tear-drop/arrow-head shape is that it lets you have a long ship which is still plausible in manouvers: the cog is in the rear lump, so we put the (0,0,0) there - the nose swinging around doesn't look too odd.

I've tried to stay true to the classic texturing, though the anaconda boasts an alligator-skin overlay. The rive configuration changes for the anaconda and the python, but I kept the way the drive exhausts sit flush with the tail. I figured the single-vent was really only important in the boa - so the boa 2 can have two or three (three is easier). I also rationalized the cabin windows so they are all between 50 and 100cm tall. A major effect of this will be that all forward views will show part of the nose of the ship - currently only the anaconda does that.

I don't think the boa quite works - and have another, simpler, model in development. Comments? Observations?

[ClymAngus]

Hmm, I quite like the neo python. It's got a nice recessed middle which I like. I do like the idea of people doing several grades of complexity in ship design.

I would suggest releasing these as variants. Do you have the plists to back these up? Or are you still at the 3d design and texturing phase?

[Killer Wolf]

like 'em, very nice - they're like a new model car; similar to last year's model but enhanced, very in keeping w/ the Oolite feel. added in as an OXP they'd be great, be like seeing the 2009 Corvette on the roads alongside the usual 2007 model etc.

[Simon B]

Technically the plists will be the same as the classic ones, but if the consensus is more towards having updated models alongside the others... an OXP could offer these as the latest models, and relegate the classic ships to "classic" status ... like collectors items.

Then, with that rusty-ships OXP you get a feel of the ultra-recent models as standard, some showroom-quality restored classics seen, but most of them are clearly past their use-by date?

In which case I'd want to offer slightly higher specs for these, and, maybe, step up the TL requirement.


I think with that neo-Python model, you can look at it and see it's supposed to be a Python. That's what I'm trying for. The others are not so clear.

Notice the cargo bay doors look like they slide, but there's no room ... perhaps they pop out to slide like the side door on a van? Perhaps they tilt like garage doors? Maybe the crack should run the other way?

I think there are too many panels too... but I'd cut it rather than lose the complexity - turn it into a 2-model ship. It just hangs together too well.


The boa is a different philosophy to the python. The classic boa is actually a smaller model! It's supposed to be a solid all-business freighter, where the Python is supposed to be more multi-role.

Started with the 7-sided "cone" and tried to stop it looking like a speed boat, so it ended up looking like a brick. (Or the Vector...). It's middle is actually inset like the python, but it's not as obvious. It also has too many panels for a single model.

I can just cut it - but I have another one in the pipeline with more speedboat lines and relegates the cargo doors to the texture.

On the anaconda, I think I have to redesign the cargo bay area - the crack in the doors needs to run the other way and, sadly, it is cut into the model... which will probably mean redoing the skin too.

I'm in two minds about the tail being so high - this is a characteristic of the classic model, but I could bring the exhaust in line with the geometric center of the ship. This would give it a flatter profile ... but it would look even less like an anaconda.


The corvette analogy is a good one - the idea here is that you may own the classic, love it, but you'd want to own the new one too... when you look at the new one, you think "yeah - definately a 'Vette."

I'm guessing I've got pretty close to that idea with the neo-python ... so what do the others need?

[Captain Tylor]

I really like the look of these ships and the Feel of the game is definitely there. all I can say is MORE MORE

[JensAyton]

I like them.

I was caught up by the challenge inherent in re-imagining the classics, keeping the styling while taking advantage of Oolite's advances since Elite came out.

If you’re looking to make use of Oolite’s advances, you should really be thinking about moving beyond flat texture maps. An obvious starting point would be glow maps for the engine intakes (?) and windows, and illumination maps where light is cast on the hull by the glowing bits. This can be done without writing shaders, and could be done with one extra texture per material if you split the windows and engine intakes into a separate material. (For efficiency, the textures for the windows and engine intakes could be shared between the ships.) Alternatively, if you used glow maps across the entire ship, you would be able to add small navigation lights and such. A fixed-intensity illumination map can be “baked into” a glow map, with a little extra fiddling.

Going further, specular maps and normal maps (also doable without custom shaders, although normal maps won’t be available until 1.73) would allow your ships to respond to light much more convincingly than “burned-in” lighting gradients can do. The normal map would be used to create indentations around thruster ports, hatches etc., while the specular map would be used to distinguish different types of surface material – clean panelling, dirty panelling, different types of paint, glass, bare metal details. Unfortunately, this sort of thing needs to be considered early in the texturing process, especially when applying fuzzy features like dirt, which must be done in a separate layer.

One thing that currently can’t be done without custom shaders is engine glows.

I think there are too many panels too... but I'd cut it rather than lose the complexity - turn it into a 2-model ship. It just hangs together too well.
…
It also has too many panels for a single model.

This will be a non-issue in 1.73.

I would suggest releasing these as variants. Do you have the plists to back these up? Or are you still at the 3d design and texturing phase?

I’d quite like to see someone show the guts to make a real replacement set. :-)

[Griff]

Beautiful work Simon, really, really love the enhanced designs and textures!

[wackyman465]

These are great. I think someone already has a retextured anaconda floating around somewhere on these forums that looks pretty good, but so do these! Of course, if you make a "neo pcc" there will be, hopefully, an obligatory sharky paint job?

[Screet]

I'm in two minds about the tail being so high - this is a characteristic of the classic model, but I could bring the exhaust in line with the geometric center of the ship. This would give it a flatter profile ... but it would look even less like an anaconda.

I'd say it would be a good idea to bring it in line with the center...anyway, the Anaconda and Python I do like much more than the original ones, however the Boa doesn't give me the big kick, probably something with the geometries of the models.

Concerning the idea to have them as "newer" models in an oxp, I like that...especially if you give them a few slight upgrades. Many oxp's already deliver more powerful (faster, energy) ships than the original, and I must admit that the game feels good with most of these ships...and a new model most probably has improved systems anyway

Furthermore, I don't believe that all ships have to look like the original low-poly-count stuff from elite...that was a machine thing at that time and I'm one of those who really love to see Griff's versions of ships in the game.

With such a vast ooniverse...there are surely different shipyards which do have different ways of building things, thus it's not required that everything looks alike, and you could even try to give it a little story explaining that some cooperation of shipyards is responsible for the enhancements...

Screet

[ClymAngus]

I’d quite like to see someone show the guts to make a real replacement set.

Well of course, these models scream time, effort, and a nod to that which went before it. That said, I'm a firm believer in options. If someone wants to play a carbon copy of the original game fine, if they wish to pick and mix cool too. If they want all the bells and whistles then they can bloat their add ons file to their hearts content.

The strength of this game is, that it's roots are buried in the community that surrounds it. This is another example of the first rate work that this game can attract. I too would love to see these as an optional replacement set, and if the player wants them alongside the older ships then that would be cool too. Anything but everything.

But as you say we should never decry effort.

[wackyman465]

Really, screet? I really like the boa.

[Screet]

Really, screet? I really like the boa.

Yes, really...and I still try to figure out, WHY. Maybe it's when I look at the python image below which shows a little more different build...instant "WOW!" result...and the anaconda is an immense enhancement concerning the original one.

Before you get me wrong: I'd instantly install it...and I do like it better than the original boa, but it's just from the pics...that it's the ship I definitely like the least. Maybe a different coloring and a few more edges and that would be completely gone, but, hey, this is just my opinion. You can get three beautiful women and a few men to say which one they like the most...I doubt that the men could agree on one of the women

Screet

[Pangloss]

Here's my 2p's worth.

The original ships were designed the way they were because of the limitations of computers at the time. Even when the game went from BBC 'B', ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64 to the Atari ST, Archimedes and the Amiga, the shapes of the ships remained the same because all that extra computer power went into stepping up from wireframe graphics to polygons.

But thanks to the steady increase in computer power available to the average person (Moore's Law), we have the ability now to run games like Ridge Racer on a mobile phone. The original came out in 1993 on Namco's System 22 board. I could find a stand-up version of RR2 for sale on eBay for US$350, second hand. Now you can download it for £3.99 and keep it in your pocket. The point is: when the game first came out, it ran on a computer with a 2 MHz CPU (my iMac has a dual processor, each part running a thousand times faster). It came with 32KB of memory (I now have a Gigabyte... over 32,000 times more (and it's running faster too)). And it didn't have a dedicated graphics chip or card, so it ran Mode 7 in less colors than an anti-aliased GIF at a resolution of 240 × 250. I'm running Oolite in widescreen at 1440 by 900 today, and I know a modern computer can display more colors than your eye can pick out. Take this image...



...there's a hidden message in the sky because it contains two shades of orange so close together, the human eye can't tell them apart. View the image in MS Paint and change the sky to green (or Magic Wand the sky in GIMP or Photoshop... set tolerance setting to zero and don't select contiguous areas). Just make sure you do it to the right of the word "RINGS". And I'm playing Oolite in the same range of colors (sorry: American spelling. Can't help myself now).

So there's no reason why the ships can't be sexed up. Keep the basic shape the same, of course (the Fer-de-Lance and Python should look like the blade of a stiletto, Thargoids are in saucers, etc.), but more detail won't hurt. The Cobra III NjX is a prime example of what's good: it still looks like a Cobra, but with added oomphf.

[wackyman465]

Yeah... I actually think that the middle one (brown) would look better as an anaconda, it looks more like a heavy cargo ship. And I'm still waiting for word on a sharky paint job on the PCC...

What's the hidden message (too lazy to find out myself)?

[ClymAngus]

So there's no reason why the ships can't be sexed up. Keep the basic shape the same, of course (the Fer-de-Lance and Python should look like the blade of a stiletto, Thargoids are in saucers, etc.), but more detail won't hurt. The Cobra III NjX is a prime example of what's good: it still looks like a Cobra, but with added oomphf.

Agreed but sexing up should be optional.
The western idea of progress assumes destruction of the old in favour of the new. Eastern thinking shows us that a balance of a miriad of ways appeals to the widest spectrum whilst still "getting the job done."