Witchspace, possible to exit?

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:52 pm

My assumption is that there is no FTL communication other than jumping. Regarding small intertubes for signals, it doesn’t appear that signals can travel through the tubes (since you can’t call the beacon on the other side and ask whether you’ve got a proper connection free of unravelling), and besides, the same amount of fuel is used for any size tube (even though the blue holes left by larger ships are larger and last longer).

Anyway, I’d go with messages being relayed, either by special probles or, more likely, by regular cargo ships.

Cmdr. Maegil · Post by **Cmdr. Maegil** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:40 pm

There's a but in this: the FTL comm via hyperspace relay satellites is mentioned on the news on FFE (spammers' arrested) and has already been used in several HPA I & II sequences.

Granted, these events take place much later than the Oolite timeline, but this fact should be taken in consideration.

drew · Post by **drew** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:26 pm

The original Elite manual states that the Cobra Mk3 has "ThruSpace GravDistort communications systems" which hints at FTL comms, but with no details.

There is also canon (if you accept 'The Dark Wheel' as canon) evidence for FTL communication in Elite.

With a quick laugh, Elyssia said, 'Funny thing about Rafe. Wherever you go in the galaxy, he's always there, a shimmering white holoFac . . . but where he really is . . . that's something you're about to find out.'

Their holofac technology allows realtime communication. Even if this is 'in-system' it has to be FTL because even planetary distances stop synchronous communication. (Eg. earth-moon takes 1.25 secs at lightspeed, earth-Mars from 20 mins up to 2 hours depending on position). So comms has to be FTL unless Rafe is always within half a lightsecond or so of Alex and Elyssia.

The 'holofac' sounds pretty similar to the hologram technology in star wars. No idea how that is supposed to work either, but both appear to require some kind of 'thruspace' transceiver at each end. 'Gravdistort' implies some kind of wormhole or similar.

QED..

(Hey... sequel to Mutabilis?

)

I also made the assumption in Status Quo (definitely not canon!) that there would be a mechanism for live distribution of tv,holograms etc)

Cheers,

Drew.

Wiggy · Post by **Wiggy** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:55 pm

Ahruman wrote:
My assumption is that there is no FTL communication other than jumping.

This is presumably the reason behind the canonical inability to know what market prices are like ay your destination world.

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:34 pm

drew wrote:
Their holofac technology allows realtime communication. Even if this is 'in-system' it has to be FTL because even planetary distances stop synchronous communication.

Good thing planetary distances are so much shorter in the Ooniverse. ;-)

drew wrote:
'Gravdistort' implies some kind of wormhole or similar.

No, it implies gravity wave communication… which is lightspeed.

Uncle Reno · Post by **Uncle Reno** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:43 pm

I've always thought that ships must have some kind of transponder, how else could you find out their legal status?

So you could argue that this is some kind of black box, sealed against any threat of being 'modified' (I'm looking at you Capt. Hesperus!!), and that, with the assumed processing power and storage ability etc etc of Oolite technology, all of these black boxes on all the ships in space act as some kind of distributed network. Information then could be spread that way, and along major trade routes wouldn't take very long to spread.

This theory doesn't stand up to all situations (i.e. you could still get market information from other planets, it just wouldn't be current to a lesser or greater extent) but I like it!

drew · Post by **drew** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:55 pm

Ahruman wrote:
Good thing planetary distances are so much shorter in the Ooniverse.

Yes, but interstella distances aren't, assuming we accept 'The Dark Wheel'

And, if you assume the 'LM' speed measurements assigned to ships are representative of a fraction of the speed of light (I disagree with this but that's beside the point) ships can travel at around 40% of 'lightspeed' and it still takes minutes to get from planet to sun. So in the ooniverse, lightspeed has to be much lower than in ours. You've still got the same problem with two way communication only being possible over very short ranges if you're stuck with the EM spectrum for comms.

Ahruman wrote:
drew wrote:
'Gravdistort' implies some kind of wormhole or similar.
No, it implies gravity wave communication… which is lightspeed.

Now being very picky and getting dangerously technobabbly..

Gravity wave communication would surely be abbreviated 'Gravity Modulation' (like AM/FM). So your transmitter would modulate gravity waves to send information - can't see why you would bother with this when good old radio works at the same speed and has the same range. If you had a technology that could modulate gravity waves you'd have an antigravity machine. Using such a technology to send messages would be like using an exocet missile to punch holes in paper. Kind of overkill.

GravDistort, to me at any rate, implies a very high concentration of gravity (perhaps making a small blackhole or singularity) in order to punch a normal EM transmission through a wormhole.

Finally - according to the Dark Wheel, Rafes ship was stationed 0.1 lightyears from Tionisla when he was transmitting his holofacs, so you definitely need FTL comms.

Cheers,

Drew.

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:32 pm

drew wrote:
Gravity wave communication would surely be abbreviated 'Gravity Modulation' (like AM/FM).

No. Modulation refers to the method of encoding information in the wave; AM and FM can be used on any type of wave.

drew wrote:
So your transmitter would modulate gravity waves to send information - can't see why you would bother with this when good old radio works at the same speed and has the same range.

Well, no, but this is SF. Expending ridiculous amounts of energy to do something trivial the hard way is de rigeur.

drew wrote:
If you had a technology that could modulate gravity waves you'd have an antigravity machine.

Not inherently.

drew wrote:
Kind of overkill.

See above. :-)

Captain Hesperus · Post by **Captain Hesperus** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:54 pm

We could always say that interstellar comms in the ooniverse works in a similar way to Star Trek's 'Inertial Dampers' (which to quote Gene Rodenberry 'It just does'

).

Captain Hesperus

drew · Post by **drew** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:24 pm

<stamps_foot_and_pouts>Well I think we've got FTL comms, so there!</stamps_foot_and_pouts>

No. Modulation refers to the method of encoding information in the wave; AM and FM can be used on any type of wave.

Ok, yes. This is true. If gravity is a wave/particle, which it probably isn't...

But I think the 'evidence' weighs more in favour of FTL comms than otherwise and is more consistent with what we see.

Cheers,

Drew.

TGHC · Post by **TGHC** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:00 pm

All very interesting, and a very enjoyable read, but the reality is it's supposition...........now how can that be?

Konrad Mule · Post by **Konrad Mule** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:16 pm

So I've just slaughtered a fleet of Thargons and I'm doomed to rot here in deep-space for eterntity? I guess the only option is to down my last bottle of Ineran Brandy and press the self-destruct button. Oh, wait a sec, it looks like you forgot to include a self-destruct system in the Mk III?

Damn well wish I'd bought that Q-bomb at Anbeen now.

LittleBear · Post by **LittleBear** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:42 pm

A handy fuel pod on your pylon or a passing Behmoth could save your Iron Ass. But if you didn't bring a space fuel can and there's no planets in range of your remaning fuel, yep you've had it!

Post by **Micha** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:41 pm

To be honest, I can't recall ever getting 'stuck' in Witchspace in original Elite - sure, I got sucked in by a bunch of Thargoids once in a while, but if I managed to survive I always had enough fuel for a jump back out - even if I had to backtrack to my starting system.

Now, either I always got very lucky (unlikely), or my memories aren't what they used to be (quite likely), or original Elite ensured your misjump always left a minimum amount of fuel to get you to the closest system..

Darn, I really will have to dig out that emulator one of these days, won't I??

Konrad Mule · Post by **Konrad Mule** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:54 pm

I think I will download the fuel tank OXP. I don't want another of my incarnations to suffer the awful loneliness of the void. It's just too much to bear.

Micha, I don't remember being able to trigger a misjump in Elite but anyway I don't think I ever played it enough to get a ship tough enough to take on the Thargon menace.