Trading aids

[Paladin]

Because I'm a capitalist pig hell bent on undermining the Communist scourge within the known Galaxies (Not really but I do like lots of filthy lucre...) I’d love someone to develop a few (Insider?) Trading aids.

• Things like a profit/loss column on the inventory page indicating when you’ve jumped what sort of profit or loss you’ve made when you check out the latest prices.

• What about an insider trading function. Very special mission where the reward is a mod where you can see all the prices within your jump radius?

• A planet price recall function. A bit like the target memory mod except this one remembers the price of things for the last 5 or 10 planets. (I know you can write this stuff down but it gets monotonous)

• Insider trading outpost or something similar. A Rock Hermit style meeting place where you can view or even trade price info so you can make an absolute motza on you next shipment of Computers & Luxuries. Could have a time limit so you’d need to get there fast. Could also have legal ramifications of course.

[ClymAngus]

Dude! This sucks about 90% of the fun out of the game. Also if you like cash so much why trade when you can get your 9 successful specific trades and then start shifting GPG orders around the ooniverse?

Alternatively there are tools you can use on your average desktop that will do most of the things you ask, the photo function will give you the prices, you could automate that into a text reader and a sub file (if your running linux or mac that is) but even under windows you'd have an inventory of prices in image form.

One of the main things that keeps me coming back to this game is the trading aspect. I'm going to help you out here and send you a copy of my pre-foldable keyboard mounted oolite crib sheet. Print it out on a4 (or the nearest aproximation) fold on the fold lines glue when nessessary and you never need to screw up a trade ever again. Just remember to buy lower and sell higher than the stated ammounts and your golden.

I'm away from my "arty" computer at the moment so give me some time to upload it to my website and I'll send you (all) a link.

[Wolfwood]

I'm going to help you out here and send you a copy of my pre-foldable keyboard mounted oolite crib sheet. Print it out on a4 (or the nearest aproximation) fold on the fold lines glue when nessessary and you never need to screw up a trade ever again. Just remember to buy lower and sell higher than the stated ammounts and your golden.

Hey, that sounds like a handy reference card - happen to have it handy for me as well?

[ClymAngus]

No problemo I'll post it on this thread (maybe even slap it on the wiki). To be honest I can't take credit for this. The information regarding average prices is obtainable from the wiki. All I did was put it in a format that puts the information between the keyboard and the screen for quick easy reference.

Believe me when something's flashing 2 pretty colours on the screen then you NEED to know what it is bloody quick!

for reference it's the the thing stuck in the top of the keyboard.



So you've got average trade prices on the left (with a little note that says buy < sell > ) In the middle you've got a key for your advanced space compass and on the right you've got a break down key for your main scanner. (If your using a dell keyboard (or others) Then you may need to cut lugs out of the flap to enable you to fit the crib sheet neatly behind you F* keys) That bit your going to have to work out for yourself.

(the keyboard itself is still a work in progress)

[Commander McLane]

I tend to agree with ClymAngus about killing the fun part. On top of that, there are also some technical limitations which would prevent at least some of your suggestions from being implemented to soon:

• What about an insider trading function. Very special mission where the reward is a mod where you can see all the prices within your jump radius?

Currently there are no prices outside your current system. Prices are only calculated the moment you jump into a new system. I don't know how expensive (in terms of computing power and time) it would be to recalculate the prices for neighbouring systems (or technically all systems in your galaxy) on every jump, but I suppose there is a reason why it isn't done currently. For the second problem see next question.

• A planet price recall function. A bit like the target memory mod except this one remembers the price of things for the last 5 or 10 planets. (I know you can write this stuff down but it gets monotonous)

That seems like a fairly pointless exercise to me, because prices change. There is an element of random in all price calculations, so even if you would store the prices from your last system, they wouldn't be the same anymore when you return. The only thing that doesn't change is that most prices will be roughly in the same range of the scale, depending on the economy of the planet. Food is cheapest in poor argiculturies and most expensive in rich industrials, computers vice versa. You don't need a price recall function in order to memorize that. Things like narcotics are more or less completely random, so the price will be completely unpredictable every time you return to a given system. Therefore again no need to store anything.

• Insider trading outpost or something similar. A Rock Hermit style meeting place where you can view or even trade price info so you can make an absolute motza on you next shipment of Computers & Luxuries. Could have a time limit so you’d need to get there fast. Could also have legal ramifications of course.

There are already a couple of trading outposts with guaranteed high or low prices for certain commodities available through some OXPs. Getting price information would again be impractical, because of the random element in price calculation.

[ClymAngus]

I tend to agree with ClymAngus about killing the fun part. On top of that, there are also some technical limitations which would prevent at least some of your suggestions from being implemented to soon:

• What about an insider trading function. Very special mission where the reward is a mod where you can see all the prices within your jump radius?

Currently there are no prices outside your current system. Prices are only calculated the moment you jump into a new system. I don't know how expensive (in terms of computing power and time) it would be to recalculate the prices for neighbouring systems (or technically all systems in your galaxy) on every jump, but I suppose there is a reason why it isn't done currently. For the second problem see next question.

• A planet price recall function. A bit like the target memory mod except this one remembers the price of things for the last 5 or 10 planets. (I know you can write this stuff down but it gets monotonous)

That seems like a fairly pointless exercise to me, because prices change. There is an element of random in all price calculations, so even if you would store the prices from your last system, they wouldn't be the same anymore when you return. The only thing that doesn't change is that most prices will be roughly in the same range of the scale, depending on the economy of the planet. Food is cheapest in poor argiculturies and most expensive in rich industrials, computers vice versa. You don't need a price recall function in order to memorize that. Things like narcotics are more or less completely random, so the price will be completely unpredictable every time you return to a given system. Therefore again no need to store anything.

• Insider trading outpost or something similar. A Rock Hermit style meeting place where you can view or even trade price info so you can make an absolute motza on you next shipment of Computers & Luxuries. Could have a time limit so you’d need to get there fast. Could also have legal ramifications of course.

There are already a couple of trading outposts with guaranteed high or low prices for certain commodities available through some OXPs. Getting price information would again be impractical, because of the random element in price calculation.

Yeah, they pooch screw most of mine as well. What's the point taking a picy of a planets prices if they change next time you jump into them?

I do have to remember that oolite, (began based on elite) is a master of discarding irrelevent information. It has to be, as it has little space to run in (at least originally). Sure, we now have the opportunity to embelish it with bloat ware, but the essence of the game stays the same. You have to do the math to make the money. Is this so much of a chore?

[Ebi]

The first thing which would be developed in an universe of traders were methods to make more profit. A kind of interstellar communication net, software which supports traders and helps them to analyize prices, interstellar exchanges, etc.
IMO it's the wrong way to limit the game's possiblities. Such extension as proposed by Paladin would enrich game play and give you the opportunity to discover even more new ideas.

I see the current limitations, but I would assume it should be quite easy to update 256 trading price tables simultaneously. If a trader wants to see prices of a neighbour system he has to rent a communication line and needs to pay a fee for it. These cost could get higher (in an exponential rate) for information inquired from farther systems.

[Disembodied]

The first thing which would be developed in an universe of traders were methods to make more profit. A kind of interstellar communication net, software which supports traders and helps them to analyize prices, interstellar exchanges, etc.
IMO it's the wrong way to limit the game's possiblities. Such extension as proposed by Paladin would enrich game play and give you the opportunity to discover even more new ideas.

I see the current limitations, but I would assume it should be quite easy to update 256 trading price tables simultaneously. If a trader wants to see prices of a neighbour system he has to rent a communication line and needs to pay a fee for it. These cost could get higher (in an exponential rate) for information inquired from farther systems.

This assumes that FTL communications (or, more specifically, communication which is faster than an FTL ship) is possible. If information requires a ship to carry it faster than light from system to system then there is no way to get real-time updates. Plus, ship travel itself isn't instantaneous: time passes in the outside universe as you travel through a wormhole, so even if you had exact prices in system X before you made your jump, by the time you got there they would be at least some hours out-of-date...

Ultimately, the question is: how much guddling around in the program is required to enable this change? In gameplay terms, is it worth it? For the occasional ability to squeeze a few credits more out of your load, personally speaking I'd say no... there are already other ways of wangling the trade runs to your advantage using a bit of experience and some of the existing non-CoOp trading stations (convenience stores, Astrofactories, Hoopy casinos etc.).

There is one idea along these lines, though, which has been floating around for a while and which I think would be worth pursuing: the dynamic ooniverse. This would be one where a player could get occasional newsflashes, either when docked in a station or from passing ships in flight, to the efffect that e.g. "A major shortage on planet X has pushed up Alloy prices". For a set amount of time, the price of Alloys on planet X would be maybe two times higher than normal. Or "The opening of a new mine on planet Y has caused Ore prices to tumble", or "A massive celebration on planet Z has pushed the price of Liquors and Wines to a new high", etc. etc.

This would have the advantage of making the gameworld seem more active and involving. However, I've got no idea how much internal guddling (if any) would be required here. If it's doable in an OXP, great: if it needs a lot of digging inside the trunk, then...

[Paladin]

Yeah, they pooch screw most of mine as well. What's the point taking a picy of a planets prices if they change next time you jump into them?

I do have to remember that oolite, (began based on elite) is a master of discarding irrelevent information. It has to be, as it has little space to run in (at least originally). Sure, we now have the opportunity to embelish it with bloat ware, but the essence of the game stays the same. You have to do the math to make the money. Is this so much of a chore?

Well yes it is as a matter of fact I believe it to be so. I just merely tried to point out that in a universe that seems so dependent on trade function (proven by extensive piracy) that there doesn't seem to have been anything developed what so ever in this area. Nothing. Nada since the 80's. It's an important aspect of the game. One which all players must grapple with. Additional functionality in this area could enhance this aspect and thus give a much more rounded experience to those that appreciate this aspect of the game. I wouldn't consider it anymore than 'bloat ware' than anothe OXP with another ship that looks/behaves remarkably like another 4 or 5 before it.

You could use it if you wanted it or you could print out things and laminate them to your keyboard. It's only a suggeston to attempt to stimulate debate in an area of game play that I belive has been missed.That's what I perceived this forum to be for.

[Disembodied]

The main problem is not with the usefulness of the function – it's more a question of whether or not it can be done in an OXP, or whether (as I suspect, although I could be totally wrong) if this would need to be instituted within the core program itself. If it's OXPable, that's fine: if someone wants to do this thre's nothing wrong with it. If it requires changes in the program, though, then I don't think it's likely to happen. Price fluctuation, within limits, is inbuilt. Every time you jump, the dice get re-rolled. One time you might find computers priced on a Rich Industrial at 62 Cr per ton, and furs at 88; the next time you visit the same planet, computers could be 65 a tone and furs only 83. Even if you knew what the prices were now, by the time you got there they would have shifted. The prices on one Poor Agricultural world are generally the same as the prices on another; same for Average Ag, and Rich Ag, and Poor Industrial, and so on. There are variations, but they apply randomly across the board. There are no planets where, say, machinery is *always* cheaper than anywhere else, or where furs are *always* more expensive.

This is not to say that the idea of insider trading is a bust. If aspects of the "dynamic ooniverse" could be implemented, resulting in occasional dramatic fluctuations based on "events", then access to information about those events could be very useful and profitable, depending on the commodities affected. Really cheap computers available for a short while for e.g. 30Cr/ton would be very interesting from a commercial point of view. Really cheap ores, though... well, you'd probably still make more money shipping furs at regular prices.

[ClymAngus]

Stuff!

www.crimsonforge.co.uk/cloister/cheatsheet.jpg

[Commander McLane]

@ Disembodied: IIRC it's not so much Dynamic Ooniverse, but Special Events.oxp what we are talking about here. The Dynamic Ooniverse idea was to have random (or pseudo random) and very occasional economical, but mainly political changes in the Ooniverse. Anarchies turning into more stable worlds, democracies becoming dictatorships and vice versa, corporate states going bancrupt and becoming anarchies, and so on, like in RealLife™.

Special Events (WIP) is what you are thinking of, temporary drops or increases of the price of a certain commodity in a certain system. And indeed this is meant to be an OXP. There are no changes to the engine needed (no, actually there was one: random d256_numbers were implemented, because I requested for them, in order to choose the system whose prices should change). It's just that I haven't got around to actually scripting anything for it... (Although I guess that it's way easier in JS than in legacy scripting.) I'm certainly going to return to the idea sooner or later, but somehow I feel I should at least attempt to finish some of my other (further-developed) WIPs first.

@ ClymAngus: There seems to be one mistake on your cheat sheet. It is hardcoded that no commodity price can ever exceed 102.0 Cr, so 114.8 for Narcotics seems strange. It seems that the error was already present in the Oolite Reference Sheet.

[Disembodied]

@ Commander McLane: right enough, my mistake!

[ClymAngus]

Classic case of GIGO.

I hear it's quite random from system to system, would a "rand" attribute be more accurate?

Also I've only ever seen minerals on sale for less than 8 at a hermitage. 10 appears to be the lowest, would that not be a better ammount to put in the box?
Just a couple of thoughts.

@ ClymAngus: There seems to be one mistake on your cheat sheet. It is hardcoded that no commodity price can ever exceed 102.0 Cr, so 114.8 for Narcotics seems strange. It seems that the error was already present in the Oolite Reference Sheet.

[Ebi]

Disembodied, that's a very good point that FTL communication is not possible. Even in real life where this information is available it's probably not a good idea to base the prognosis of prices on their history alone and discarding their connection to economics. Therefore the dynamic universe and Commander McLane's Special Events OXP are great ideas. For me it's not about of making more credits, but to have more strategical elements in trading. There should be some kind of relationship and dependency of Oolite systems. Such information needs to be stored globally and a set of rules could be defined which tells how Oolite propagates changes in one system to another, political and economical. I could imagine that some simple rules can result in complex scenarios.

For instance, if resource B in system C is missing (due to a special event), prices for product D are raising in system E.

On restart Oolite has to reestablish the last state again. I don't think, that can be done by an OXP?!

Sorry if that has been mentioned before.