Oolite Shipyards Extension V1.0 Development

[Lestradae]

Pimping myself!

Realistic Shipyards V3.02 has, after being online for two weeks, broken through the One Hundred Downloads barrier!



L

[Cmdr. Maegil]

Pimping myself!

Realistic Shipyards V3.02 has, after being online for two weeks, broken through the One Hundred Downloads barrier!



L

Erm... a few of them was me trying to download its 85,6Mb on a weak Wifi...

P.S.: Maybe you should edit this post to add to the wiki as a caveat

I haven't forgotten what it's like to have a paper ass, no injectors, standard shields, and only a pulse laser and conventional missiles, in a universe where Tigers and Wolves and Kestrels and Condors also prowl. I have some half-baked ideas about how to retain balance at such varied levels

Your ideas - by all means, let`s hear them!

My opinion is that: If any Jameson buys himself an Injector right after the Docking Comp (possible at Lave itself with RS 3.02 - buy a smaller ship + more equipment immediately and start out with a few thousand credits), and keeps using that scanner thingy and looking at the printed-out ships databank what is coming at him, and doesn`t travel to anarchies or feudal systems for the time being, keeping to corporate and democratic systems at the beginning, and RUNS if one of the big guys gets too interested ... then the universe where Tigers and Wolves and Kestrels and Condors also prowl is pretty survivable for the young Jameson.

Shit happens - but with RS 3.02, death can happen to the best of us ...

Perhaps (perhaps?! ) I`m an old style gamer, but I don`t hold the sliding scales easy gaming approach in high regard ... in my version of the Ooniverse (visible in RS) there are dangerous places you don`t go to before you have become dangerous yourself. That way, low-tech anarchy actually means something.

That is just my opinion, my 0.2 Cr - anyone else is entiteled to theirs too, and I will always listen to new ideas ...

Have fun everyone with your respective versions

L

[Lestradae]

Hi Cmdr. Maegil!

a few of them was me trying to download its 85,6Mb on a weak Wifi...

I hope you succeded eventually!

So that`s why the downloads suddenly jumped from 98 to 111 ...

Maybe you should edit this post to add to the wiki as a caveat

What part of it?

Hope the download works eventually & you have fun with it

L

[Lestradae]

`nother pic:



Isn`t it lovely the Navy Constitution ...

[DaddyHoggy]

It is lovely - how is the blue glow from the Warp Nacelles done?

[Lestradae]

It is lovely - how is the blue glow from the Warp Nacelles done?

I think Charlie used two rows of blue flashers overlayed with two gigantic double exhaust flames.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

Ahruman, has there been any advancement regarding the application of different decals on ships (the previous position being "only replacing the complete skin")?

[caracal]

Lestradae, I promised you some thoughts about RS in general, and my feedback on 3.02 specifically, and here it finally is. I blame the delay on the fact that my initial round of postings netted me so much helpful advice, and your RS fixes made things sufficiently better, that I've been playing oolite instead of writing.

First, your fixes:

• The corrected roles made a huge difference! I had no idea how many law-abiding citizens there were in the ooniverse! Before, it seemed like half of the ships I saw were tagged Offender or Fugitive, but now they're relatively rare. And since the fix, I haven't once gotten in trouble for shooting a Bad Guy in front of the police. So thanks!
• Not all error messages have been removed, of course. The thing is just too big to catch them all in one round, given that not every ship is processed every time you run the game. I have a collection of some, but from what I've read here, you've already found and fixed most of them. I'll wait until your next release, then see if I can spot any more.
• I had some comments about Pirate Clan One, but since then you and Amen Brick have fixed it up quite a bit, so they're a lot better--no missing models, sizing is better now, etc. Plus it's now linked in from the wiki.

Now for general commentary and such. First, let me say that I agree (in the main) with the pricing model, and have used it (to the extent I understand it, as I mentioned in another post) to set the prices for all ships I've been playing with designing. I also like the convenience of picking up a wide variety of ships in one place. But I do have a few questions and possibly quibbles, depending on the answers:

• First, I occasionally see dramatic price variations in shipyards between two identical ships. I know that some ships are represented multiple times, from different shipyard entries, but in at least one case, there was something like a 60,000Cr difference between two ships that were both "standard customer model". And that ship is only in RS, and only in there once. Is that something the basic game just does, and is out of your hands? I do notice that sometimes when they add extra equipment (which some ships seem to attract like flies, dunno why) they often jack the price up far out of proportion to the actual cost. Especially that blasted Naval Energy Unit, but also sometimes with simple things like fuel scoops or heat shielding. Again, I assume this is part of the standard shipyard algorithm.
• Do the RS prices as they stand now include standard equipment in the cost? How about the tech level? I was working on a designing a ship, and I wanted it to have fuel injectors standard, By your price ranges, the ship would have been, I think, TL5, but injectors are TL10, so I listed it as TL10. Not entirely sure that's accurate, wanted to get your thoughts. I also bought a ship once, and was surprised to find that it came with a ton of standard equipment already, stuff I had saved up to buy as soon as I'd purchased it. (That was a nice surprise, of course, but got me wondering about whether it was factored into the price.)
• Clear this up for me: You figure the cargo pricing factor based on the "extended" cargo capacity, of the base Cobra MkIII versus the ship being priced. That is, its base capacity plus the Large Cargo Bay enhancement if that's allowed. Then, in your document of ship data, you frequently list "No ECC" under "Possible Equipment". Does the inability to have a Large Cargo Bay count as "less equipment" in the overall pricing equation? That is, would that be a 90% instead of 100%, if a ship has "No ECC"? If so, haven't you already figured in the cargo capacity difference by using the "extended" capacity figure for the cargo pricing factor? Isn't that a bit of double-dipping? Also, I notice that there's now a shipdata entry that lets you specify how large a Large Cargo Bay is, different from the stock 15 tons. This area seems to need a bit of clarification, at least for me.
• Your Special Interstellar Shipyard and Repair Facilities are quite a treat for the eyes, what with the spinning rings and the rotating ships clustered around the back and the signs and glowy bits. And they show up in a lot of systems. But are they anything more than eye candy, and an occasional navigation hazard? As far as I can tell, they simply reproduce the system's ship market exactly. Wouldn't some variation there make them more interesting to visit? The Seedy Space Bar from Random Hits often has ships for sale that you wouldn't normally find in that sort of system, though the prices tend to be on the high side. So far, I haven't found any real reason to dock at a SIRF, beyond the visual pleasure of it.
• In the real world we live in, prices tend to go more on a logarithmic/geometric scale than the linear one you use (except for speed, that one is a curve, not a line). To go 10kph, that's free--you just run. To go 20, 30, up to about 60kph, that requires a scooter or something, which costs from a few hundred to a few thousand (dollars, euros, GBP, whatever). 100kph to about 200 or so, that's a regular car, tens of thousands.up to hundreds. But when you start to get into the higher speeds, the price goes up asymptotically--a race car is hundreds of thousands up to millions, and above 1000kph, you're confined to aircraft, which are correspondingly higher. An ultralight airplane is cheap, a commuter plane is higher, a business jet much higher, a fighter jet is in the millions, and the space shuttle or Ariane, just forget it. Now, having said all that, I'm not entirely sure you/we want to get quite that realistic with the prices! But having them go up slowly in the lower ranges, and much more quickly as the higher end is approached, that seems appealing, and feels like it's in tune with our recent discussion about ship speeds--really high speeds are "really something". Just a seed for discussion, I guess.
• Clear up another thing for me, if you can, or maybe one of the ghods of the code can: Is it or is it not possible for an OXP to set the prices seen in a shipyard display, based on data of its own, and what it can get from the game engine? Because if it can, then I can easily envision an ECMAScript (JavaScript to some) proggie that implements the RS pricing model, and just calculates the prices on the fly. If this isn't possible, wonder how hard it would be to add? I certainly don't want to make more work for the maintainers--they do a heroic job already, and all for free (except for our lavish praise and adulation). But man, the potential would be great, don't you think? Based on things you and others have said here, I'm still not sure whether this is a possibility or just a pipe dream.

That's all I have for now. Just have to say, great work on RS, and keep it up. I'll be chiming in again with some ideas for the future, like an automated installer that lets you include or omit ships, either in groups ("Trek", "Star Wars", "Uber", "Starter", etc.) or individually--that goes along with the discussion in this thread, and a "Ship OXP Review Board", comprised of unpaid volunteers who do it for the love of the game.

Hmm, maybe I am doing a spliff, as DaddyHoggy suggested elsewhere.

[Lestradae]

@caracal,

thanks for your thoughtful and encompassing feedback!

Due to RL issues and because I want to give you an in-depth answer also, I will answer later ... promise

See ya

L

[Lestradae]

@caracal: Long answer.

Hi!

The corrected roles made a huge difference! I had no idea how many law-abiding citizens there were in the ooniverse! Before, it seemed like half of the ships I saw were tagged Offender or Fugitive, but now they're relatively rare. And since the fix, I haven't once gotten in trouble for shooting a Bad Guy in front of the police. So thanks!

Yeah, it made a bigger difference than I thought ...

Not all error messages have been removed, of course. The thing is just too big to catch them all in one round, given that not every ship is processed every time you run the game. I have a collection of some, but from what I've read here, you've already found and fixed most of them. I'll wait until your next release, then see if I can spot any more.

No, please post your list here! If you found anything I haven`t found yet, it`s very helpful to have it before the next release!

know that some ships are represented multiple times, from different shipyard entries, but in at least one case, there was something like a 60,000Cr difference between two ships that were both "standard customer model". And that ship is only in RS, and only in there once.

The only possible explanation for that is that there are two different versions of that ship which have the same in-game name, but are actually different (i.e. one has 0.35 LS top speed, the other 0.37 LS but both are named Cobra MkIII). Otherwise it would be a mystery. Do you recall which ship that was?

An alternative explanation would be that you had another oxp installed also that has the same ship type but with a different price which is not rewritten properly by RS - have you checked for that?

Do the RS prices as they stand now include standard equipment in the cost? How about the tech level?

The additional equipment is calculated by the core game into the price. The ship`s TL determines where a ship can be found, not its equipment. Which equipment is added is dtermined by the core game, RS can`t influence that a lot.

By your price ranges, the ship would have been, I think, TL5, but injectors are TL10, so I listed it as TL10. Not entirely sure that's accurate, wanted to get your thoughts.

Well, i think such a ship should be available from TL 5 onwards, as the ship should determine the TL, not the equipment imo.

Equipment can always be brought in from other systems easily - which explains the ridiculous pricing of an Adder with a Naval Energy Unit found in a TL 2 shipyard - only the ship was built in the system itself. Or so goes my in-game reasoning.

got me wondering about whether it was factored into the price.

Probably yes, the core game does that, as mentioned above.

Clear this up for me: You figure the cargo pricing factor based on the "extended" cargo capacity, of the base Cobra MkIII versus the ship being priced. That is, its base capacity plus the Large Cargo Bay enhancement if that's allowed. Then, in your document of ship data, you frequently list "No ECC" under "Possible Equipment". Does the inability to have a Large Cargo Bay count as "less equipment" in the overall pricing equation? That is, would that be a 90% instead of 100%, if a ship has "No ECC"? If so, haven't you already figured in the cargo capacity difference by using the "extended" capacity figure for the cargo pricing factor? Isn't that a bit of double-dipping? Also, I notice that there's now a shipdata entry that lets you specify how large a Large Cargo Bay is, different from the stock 15 tons. This area seems to need a bit of clarification, at least for me.

Cargo works price-wise as follows:

* The cargo capacity that is used as a comparison is the cargo capacity + an eventual large cargo bay. So how large a large cargo bay can be for a given ship is irrelevant, as this was already factored in.

* Below 35 tons of capacity (the Cobra MkIII is taken as base standard always) you pay a little less (I think 1% less per 2 tons less) for the ship. Beyond 35 tons you pay 1% more per additional ton of cargo space.

* If it makes sense to also factor the "has ECC" or "has no ECC" into the price I`m also not so sure anymore. I left it in because I had the vague idea to make the scope of a large cargo bay dependable on the "base cargo bay" but leave the price as it is for all ships. That way, while the Cobra MkIII`s large cargo bay adds 15 tons to its 20 for a total of 35 tons, an Anaconda`s large cargo bay might add 570 tons to its 750 for a total of 1320 tons ... not sure yet. Ideas welcome.

So far, I haven't found any real reason to dock at a SIRF, beyond the visual pleasure of it.

The SIRF Yards have a Tech Level that is three levels higher than the TL of the system surrounding it. If you look at the equipment dock you will see that. In systems of TL 13+ the TL of the SIRFYards stays at 15, but the equipment including the TL 15 equipment gets cheaper. Much cheaper. There`s your reason

The shipyards of the SIRF Yards should also have ships of three TLs higher - that it ìsn`t like that is actually a bug in the core game that I have requested to be repaired, but as yet, this hasn`t been done ...

When this is repaired, the higher-TL shipyards will also be a reason to visit the SIRFYards ...

In the real world we live in, prices tend to go more on a logarithmic/geometric scale than the linear one you use ... Now, having said all that, I'm not entirely sure you/we want to get quite that realistic with the prices!

Well, most things rise as a curve:

* Speed (double price for each 0.1 LS raise, that means: quadruple for + 0.2 LS, octuple for 0.3 LS etc. ... you get the picture)

* Cargo bay: + 1 ton + 1%

etc. ...

And at the end, everything is multiplied. A ships with 100 tons more cargo, + 0.1 LS, five missiles more and five energy banks more and with an energy recharge rate of, say, 5 more, doesn`t go up linear - its 2 (100 tons) * 2 (+0.1 LS) * 2 (+5 missiles) * 2 (+5 energy banks) * 2 (energy recharge rate +5) = 2 to the power of 5 ~ 32 times more expensive than its reference ship ...

A Cobra MkIII that is uplifted like that, would cost not 150.000 Cr, but 4.8 million credits!

So, I think the price progressions go up quite the way you described them with the cars - planes - spaceships metaphor ... I fear it is this realistic, hence the name.

Is it or is it not possible for an OXP to set the prices seen in a shipyard display, based on data of its own, and what it can get from the game engine? Because if it can, then I can easily envision an ECMAScript (JavaScript to some) proggie that implements the RS pricing model, and just calculates the prices on the fly. If this isn't possible, wonder how hard it would be to add?

That would be very, very great, if that was possible, but I don`t know if it is and if, how-to. If someone ever scripted a gadget like that I`d immediately include it into future RS and be hugely thankful for getting spared lots of future work by hand ...

Just have to say, great work on RS, and keep it up.

Thanks, I`ll do just that. The next version will see a split of the pricing model (Realistic Shipyards V1.1) and the full, big, add-all ships version (Oolite Ships Extension V1.0). And the latter one will include many more ships generated by varying what`s already there a bit ...

some ideas for the future, like an automated installer that lets you include or omit ships, either in groups ("Trek", "Star Wars", "Uber", "Starter", etc.) or individually

That`s a very good idea. Cmdr Maegil I think said he might create RS versions "for Jamesons" and "for veterans". If he or someone else invests the work, I would appreciate that very much and, if wanted, even host it on my paid box account and add download links on the Realistic Shipyards page to the alternate variants.

An automatic installer that lets you add or remove ships or ship packs, but not by oxp picking (the ship oxps in RS have been repaired, some of them massively, by using the old oxps again you`d get all the old errors again!) but directly from RS, would be the best actually. No idea if or how that is possible - if someone does it, again, I would embrace it, host it and list it on the RS page.

comprised of unpaid volunteers who do it for the love of the game

I get company

Hmm, maybe I am doing a spliff, as DaddyHoggy suggested elsewhere

By all means, if it pleases you, do, and - see above!

Cheers

L

[JensAyton]

Ahruman, has there been any advancement regarding the application of different decals on ships (the previous position being "only replacing the complete skin")?

It can be done with a custom shader. Other than that, no.

Moderator: split off Star Trek geeking to its own thread.

[Lestradae]

Another gallery pic:

A Navy Constitution and a SIRFYard from Realistic Shipyards, with ClymAngus`s new Medusa Hud and a station from (I think) Pagroove.

[DaddyHoggy]

This is such a beautiful game now - Imagine what the Constitution could look like if Griff rubbed his Shader fingers over it...

[Lestradae]

Imagine what the Constitution could look like if Griff rubbed his Shader fingers over it...

Erm ...

Griff? Griff?!!! I would have a question to ask!

[DaddyHoggy]

Have I caused some confusion? I was just wondering what Griff could do with additional lighting/shader effects on what is already a fabulous model - i.e. illuminating the (incorrect) designation area as Star Trek ships all seem to do.