Regarding the lack of ships in deep-space...

[Commander Burton]

It seems to me that any activity is limited almost exclusively to the space lane between the witchpoint beacon and the planet.

There are no ships in deep-space, none at all.

Whilst I understand the advantages of this with the Jump trick to avoid ships in the corridor, I must say that I feel that the apparent 'void' of deep-space hurts the game.

It substantially detracts from a key element...

Many a time in Elite I would be cruising almost/often out of sight of the planet/star/both and encounter a ship(s) in deep space. The feeling of trepidation then raised as one was given to wondering why they were there. Frequently of course, they turned out to be criminals, but some were honest and of a credible nature.

This small point made Elite's pseudo Universe seem even more believable than it already was, and contributed to what I would state was and still is Elite's greatest attribute : atmosphere.

24 years of technological advances and still it tops charts.

I would be very interested in hearing your opinions on this and whether or not we should push to have this included in the game.

[pagroove]

At first I found this emptyness a little dissapointment but to me the busy spacelane opposed to the empty space makes sense AND the spacelance is wide enough for me. A little outside the spaceline you still encounter ships (Vipers on patrol etc.)

There are some OXP's that add also ships on the witchpoint-sun route. Maybe someone should be a special 'jump trick' OXP with a story behind it that simulates that some pirates know that some traders will turn 45 degrees of the spacelane to quikly jump to the planet. Maybe in such an OXP Pirates set traps outside the space line of use some 'scanning mines' to hunt on those ships?

Otherwise I find it a good thing to choose if you want to have a busy flight to the planet or a less busy flight. Even if you jumptrick then you will encounter some ships in the area near the station before you enter the spacestation. It was very handy when I needed to travel at least 70 lightyears to my next Random hits contract.

I feel that with enough other OXP's space is busy enough to keep you busy. Plus if you want to become elite one have to score kills. And these kills are inside the lane

However I often find that Anarchy's and Feudals should also be more dangerous outside the lanes.

[Scoopy]

Whilst I appreciate the ability to avoid the space lanes when you just need to get somewhere fast, it doesn´t make a great deal sense to me. With all those pirates around, it seems to me that any sensible trader would increase their chances of survival and their speed of arrival (and hence profits) by avoiding the space lanes completely.

They have all got to be mad not to avoid the space lanes and in fact, we choose to use them merely to make a game of it.

[Frame]

well you could suggest, to have pirates randomly jump you in deep space, as if they jumped in, like they did in classical elite.. The worse the system the more likely you are of being jumped...

I actually beleive this is feaseble in an OXP, using a random number with the possibility for being jumped is more and more likely the worse the system. But it will have to be tweaked since if you are an offender you should also be jumped by police...

Traders could be added in too, but maybe the system will get to over populated, counters should be in place to ensure that at any given time there is not more than this and this kind of vessels in the system...

you could call it Traffic.oxp or something similar...

[Jar]

However I often find that Anarchy's and Feudals should also be more dangerous outside the lanes.

I'd like that. The Nasty systems should be a little more nasty than they are. It's just not right to goto a Feudal/Anarch and just fly around perfectly safe. I don't remember it being that easy on the orginal (C64).

However I think the safe places should stay safe. That way Jameson has someplace to trade.

[Commander McLane]

Many a time in Elite I would be cruising almost/often out of sight of the planet/star/both and encounter a ship(s) in deep space. The feeling of trepidation then raised as one was given to wondering why they were there. Frequently of course, they turned out to be criminals, but some were honest and of a credible nature.

There is a technical reason behind this difference. Elite was player-centered. Everything happened just around the player. So also NPCs were only added somewhere close to the player from time to time.

This meant of course, that they were added regardless of the player's position in the system. Therefore also in deep-space.

Oolite, on the other hand, is not player-centered. When you enter the system, the whole system with all other ships is created at once. And the NPCs start to interact with each other, even if the player is nowhere near. That never happened in Elite.

Therefore the few kilometers around the player are nothing special. No extra ships are created close to him while he is in the system. Thus no extra ships if he is away from the spacelanes.

So much for the technical reason. But I think there is also an intrinsic reason why there are no pirates or other ships far outside the spacelanes:

Traders simply have no business in the middle of nowhere. So why should they go there?

And if there is no reason for traders to be deep in-system, there is no reason for pirates as well. Predators lurk where they expect their prey to show up, not randomly in the void. And the prey is concentrated in the spacelanes, so that's the natural habitat of pirates.

And therefore it's the hunters' habitat as well. And the police are only there to secure the spacelanes in the first place.

So I actually find it more realistic to meet no ships in deep-space than to meet one every couple of minutes.

And finally there is another technical reason, why NPCs stick to the main corridors and don't use the "jumptrick": NPCs don't have jumpdrives, so there is no speed to gain. The only thing they (at least some of them) can have is fuel injectors. But these consume fuel, and therefore NPCs don't use them regularly.

And it makes sense that NPCs don't have jumpdrives, if you consider that the jumpdrive is only a speed-up gimmick for the player in the first place. Unlike in other sims we can't set the clock to double, quadruple or eightfold speed, but at least we have the J-key to do something similar. That's all that is behind it.

[Amen Brick]

I agree with everything in the above. Maybe, however, someone could write an OXP about something lurking in the deep space... In deep space nothing can hear you scream....

[LittleBear]

I think with the new Java Script it would be possible to spawn ships near the player (random chance, and types with the odds weighted by govenment type) outside the space lanes. The Sunskimmers OXP adds ships to the sun planet line though already, which I guess is where most Commanders are when not in the Space Lane. Renegade Pirates also adds a few lurkers outside the Space Lanes.

[Eric Walch]

I think with the new Java Script it would be possible to spawn ships near the player (random chance, and types with the odds weighted by govenment type) outside the space lanes. The Sunskimmers OXP adds ships to the sun planet line though already, which I guess is where most Commanders are when not in the Space Lane. Renegade Pirates also adds a few lurkers outside the Space Lanes.

Yes, it would be very easy to add a ship in the direction of the player heading but far outside scanner range.

Even oolite itself adds ships on the sun-planet route. traders, pirates and patrols. However in much lower quantities. The system also adds ships and asteroids at the back of the planed in line with the space lane. sometimes you notice this because of the mining activity there. Many of the rock hermits are placed there, but you mainly notice this when adding the rock hermit locator. But when you fly there you will encounter an occasional pirate.

[Commander McLane]

I agree with everything in the above. Maybe, however, someone could write an OXP about something lurking in the deep space... In deep space nothing can hear you scream....

I agree with that. Occasionally an OXP does this (like the Link base in Ionics, or the Hacker Outposts in Anarchies, and of course the famous Tianve Pulsar!).

I also expected the mythical Deep Space Dredgers, ever since I first heard of them (back in the days of C64-Elite), to be located in, errrm..., well..., deep space. So I have to admit I was a little disappointed that, when they finally came into being in an OXP, they only appeared at the most unseemingly of all places, next to main stations (at least that's the only place I have ever encountered a dredger).

[Frame]

I also expected the mythical Deep Space Dredgers, ever since I first heard of them (back in the days of C64-Elite), to be located in, errrm..., well..., deep space. So I have to admit I was a little disappointed that, when they finally came into being in an OXP, they only appeared at the most unseemingly of all places, next to main stations (at least that's the only place I have ever encountered a dredger).

Yeah, sometimes you wish people just sat back 5 min, and took on theire sceptic glasses while making theire OXP and thought what in here does not make sense ?..

[Commander Mysenses]

I think the jumptrick is too useful to risk getting masslocked by lots of vessels outside the lanes. But I do think that its usefulness should come at a cost. There should be a good reason why the space lanes are where they are... and why ships use them in preference to more empty space.

My proposal is asteroids... lots of asteroids! Or at least hefty clouds of the buggers, too wide to navigate around, and big enough to be ship-killers. That would have the advantage of not masslocking but increase the risk of high speed jumping through clouds of rock... kinda high risk dodgems (or to give it its other name, driving in Rome!). It would also give a good backstory as to why ships stay in the lanes, perhaps even give the opportunity for a new ship type... a celestial street sweeper to keep those lanes clear of stray rocks. And perhaps Deep Space Dredgers could then be found where they should be... deep space, harvesting pesky rocks.

[Selezen]

Not particularly realistic in terms of stellar mechanics though.

How about a heavy pirate presence and a higher chance of Thargoid encounters the further from the transit lane you go? The space lane is described as such because it is the only part of the system that is regularly policed. Outside the space lane pirates rule the roost. Further out from the pirate havens, Thargoids keep their fleets and stage their raids. Maybe even a carrier or two hides in the relative darkness, spitting out a few ships before heading out again...

An uneasy understanding exists between the pirates and the Thargoids in this remote place. The occasional alliance is brokered and the occasional chitinous tail is stepped on...

[Frame]

An uneasy understanding exists between the pirates and the Thargoids in this remote place. The occasional alliance is brokered and the occasional chitinous tail is stepped on...

Would that not contradict the thargoid nature, which is attack and destroy all human vessels on sight. Since they do not understand the human langauge as reflected by theire jibberish when being killed... it would not make sense for the suddenly to have developed co-existance skills with the pirates, just because they are pirates...

While pirates live at a risk in deep space, it think the thargoids would surely attack these, i think its better that pirates would hang around in small but networked bases where each base could hold 1 to 3 ships.. sort a like a "pirate-Hive".. Small because that would make the most sense in these far off areas, where resources have to be transported in order to build bases... a new type of asteroid dwelling maybe... just not as large as a rock hermit...

[Arexack_Heretic]

I agree with everything in the above. Maybe, however, someone could write an OXP about something lurking in the deep space... In deep space nothing can hear you scream....

Obviously there have been a few of these already.
I am thinking of anarchies and several of the larger oxp's that add renegade outposts and the like.
The problem with this approach is then that a player may never find the little hollowed out rock far outside the spaceways and this then only adds uneccesary strain on the CPU.

I don't recall if this was added to any of the outposts:
pirates/hunters launching from a hidden base, waypointing to the spacelane, hunt, return to the base.
this traffic might lead players towards a base without the need of beacons or locators.

AFAIK, all current bases are either fitted with locators or located in high traffic areas.