More cops for your money?

[matt634]

@ Lestradae

There was nothing fluffy about the 9 specific (I'm sure there are numerous more) problems with what you've done with your roles. I understand that you've come under fire with this OXP, and I think it's hardened you to valid criticism which is what I'm offering. I don't think you understand these roles and what they're doing. Let me go back over the few that I already mentioned.

The undockable carrier ships you've assigned as shuttles - They don't work; they'll crash when they dock, and AI WILL NOT FIX THEM. Shuttles from the planet are auto assigned an AI that docks them at the station - that's what assigning shuttle to a ship role will do. You shouldn't do it to undockable carriers.

You have BLACKDOG PIRATE PYTHONS acting as police ships along with several other ship types that don't fit like ferdelances acting as rock hermits.

You have massive navy capital ships escorting simple lone traders.

You have scavengers that can't scavenge, miners that can't mine, bounty hunters that can't hunt, and police with fugitive ratings.

These are concrete, indisputable facts, and if you want to be defensive and bury your head in the sand saying they don't affect gameplay... well that's on you - it's your OXP, and you don't have to make it work right if you don't want to.

[Lestradae]

I think it's hardened you

Spot on.

The undockable carrier ships you've assigned as shuttles - They don't work; they'll crash when they dock

Never seen it happen (yet), but to look into this is on my To-Do list for 3.02.

You have BLACKDOG PIRATE PYTHONS acting as police ships along with several other ship types that don't fit like ferdelances acting as rock hermits.

Unusual ships doing unusual things, but not completely bizarre in a universe which has a thousand different worlds with eight different systems of government under umbrella organisations that rank mass murderers highest, methinks.

Why shouldn`t GalCop in case of shortages use confiscated ships to bolster their ranks? Why shouldn`t some Fer-de-Lance owner decide to drop out like some businessman who goes to Thailand and opens a beach bar, but keeps his Ferrari?

You have massive navy capital ships escorting simple lone traders

Perhaps those traders transport something really important for the Navy? Perhaps they are people who have really deep pockets and want a suitable escort for the 100 tons of gem stones they are shipping through the galaxy? Not that unthinkable, that.

You have scavengers that can't scavenge, miners that can't mine

Have you actually ever seen another ship take an asteroid apart and scoop it? Did you ever check if the other scavengers really scavenged or just flitted around? Really?

bounty hunters that can't hunt, and police with fugitive ratings

Please, explain to me how my usage of the roles might lead to that result. If valid, this goes to my To-Do list.

These are concrete, indisputable facts, and if you want to be defensive and bury your head in the sand saying they don't affect gameplay...

Weeell ...

As I said, if you tell me something specific enough that I can look into it and do something about it, I`ll do. It just depends on the tone and intent, that`s all. If you happen to find something that can go visibly wrong in the game and proceed to tell me about it in a basically polite way, I`m actually thankful for it!

OK?

L

[LittleBear]

The problem with fugitive Cops and hunters is due to the bounty key. The SuperCobra has a its bounty set to 100. It will always be a fugitive with a bounty of 100 whatever role it is called by. If you look at the inbuilt ships, you can see for example that there are seperate entries for cobra-trader and cobra-pirate, cobra-miner. If you want to use SuperCobras as cops or escorts or miners you shoudn't set the bounty key or have different roles in the same shipdata entry. Each version really needs its own entry (supercobra-miner, supercobra-cop etc) and give each version one role. A similar problem can happen with miners. If you give a ship the role miner it will get minerAI but not a Mining Laser or fuel scoops. It also does not necessarly have cargo capacity (eg an Asp). An asp with the role miner / scavenger will try to scavenge / mine but isn't capable of either as it lacks the kit to do so! Again you'd really need a myship-miner entry where its assigned Fuel Scoops with 100% probablity and fitted with a mining laser. Eg:- With the Random Hits NPC Bounty Hunters, although these guys fly loads of different ships each one has a custom version (random_hits_patrol_aspmk1, random_hits_patrol_asp_explorer etc for when they appear as bounty hunters, random_hits_defender_asp etc when they appear as defence ships and random_hits_mark_asp when they appear as criminals). To add a bit of variety to the Space Bar launched bounty hunters behaviour I told the hunters to mine / scavange / witch-out / go on long patrol if there are no bad guys about. But this meant it did have to make sure these versions of the ships always had the cutsomAI assinged, zero bounty and the right kit equipped. Which really needs a cutsom version with only one role (just lots of differnt entries in shipdata).

[Lestradae]

@Little Bear:

Thanks for providing the information, on my To-Do list for 3.02!

@Some others, you know whom I mean:

See? That was polite and helpful, and the sky didn`t fall, and what I said as a reply was "Thank you".

That`s how communication works.

[JensAyton]

First, you have copied every single texture, model, image, etc... from the original OXP and set it up in a way that you're OXP loads last. Which means that if another author ever makes any change what so ever to any one of the 90 OXPs you've included, and a player downloads the new OXP, your OXP will override the changes and the player will see nothing new. I have this same problem on a much smaller scale with my own OXP that I need to correct.

This particular problem is what the new override plists in 1.72 are intended for. Of course, in order to be useful, they must be adopted by OXPers who take the time to understand their ramifications.

You have given multiple ships like the ringhals and sidewinder the role scavenger even though they don't have fuel scoops. This means when they launch to scoop something... well I don't what will happen :(

Off the top of my head, I believe that they’ll fail to enter the approach-to-scoop AI state, and just fly around scanning for stuff. They won’t clean up debris and they won’t return to base unless something else clears it all out.

I am concerned with this newest idea to change the roles originally assigned by the authors which you obviously don't understand. My advice would be to leave them alone or include a disclaimer.

I agree, apart from the disclaimer bit.



Lestradae, I generally avoid commenting on the content of OXPs, but the large numbers of subtle bugs you’re introducing by randomly messing around with roles is going to break the game in complicated ways, and most users will assume it’s the game’s fault. I thought the idea of the OXP was to make the game feel more realistic – the hint’s in the name – and assigning carriers as freighter escorts or Leviathans as shuttles does not mesh with that goal.

That`s true, and if someone actually reads the text about this OXP to which I have devoted a wiki-page, they will find a reminder saying: …

One of the core rules of software design is: Users Do Not Read Documentation. Whenever you assume that something won’t be a problem because it’s in the manual or Read Me file, you’re doing it wrong.

The only one potential problem you found is if someone goes actually looking if scavenging ships really scoop their loot. Who who just plays this game is ever going to do that?

I did.

One of Oolite’s major “selling points” is that life goes on as normal around you. Among other things, this means that if something breaks or dumps cargo near the station, scavengers pop out, clean it up and go back to the station. This makes sense.

After your messing about, what happens is that something breaks or dumps cargo near the station, ships immediately launch from the station and wander around randomly until they crash with something or fly off randomly into space, and the rubbish is left floating around. This does not make sense, so what’s the point of assigning the scavenger role to the wrong ships?

2. It adds in actually all ship oxps that contain playable ships for convenience but five (which contain more than "just" additional ships AND some are still worked on by their authors, which is why they are not in). Result: No cluttered AddOns folder, no downloading 85 oxps. Just the one and loads of new ships to buy in one go.

This assumes that everyone wants to have all the playable ships at the same time. I strongly doubt this, especially since many – probably most – Oolite players play on low-end systems. In fact, before Realistic Shipyards, the only person I ever saw suggesting the idea of using all the ship OXPs at once was you, and numerous people expressed surprise that anyone would do that.

3. As there are many more ships to take from, so the basic roles (trader, pirate, hunter, wingman, police, sunskimmer etc.) are distributed more broadly. So you meet, as someone formulated it, "old friends in new roles". That`s WANTED.

That would make perfect sense, if it was implemented by someone who understood the role system and carefully considered which ship to put in which roles. If it was done properly, though, I’d expect relatively few ships to have their role changed, because the original authors already considered which roles their ships suited.

I assumed that Oolite`s role system basically works as intended.

It works exactly as intended. You have amply demonstrated that you do not understand the intention.

Concerning the police ships there might (note, might, as in could be) one or the other hiccup due to the scan_class / role of police being reworked by Ahruman as we speak.

This reworking is happening only in your imagination.

In the test releases, since at least 1.69, police are identified by scan class. In future versions, they will be identified by scan class. In previous versions, they were sometimes identified by role and sometimes by scan class with no clear distinction between the cases. That was a bug.

If you have some specific criticism that doesn`t just have fluffy insinuations in it but says something concrete, I will go to great length of responding to it, thinking about it, taking it aboard completely or partially if I find that criticism has merit and will change things accordingly.

matt634’s criticisms were concrete, precise and entirely correct.

And if someone should again find the nerve to publicly insult me here on the forum, well after I was told that the moderators are too "friendly" to step in at such behaviour and hope for self-regulation in such matters, I would in the future respond accordingly and build on the hope that they will be equally friendly with me if I answer on the same level.

Matt, concerning the nature of my answers, there is a simple rule to gauge my reaction for the future: You reap what you sow.

I forget & forgive destructiveness the moment someone (anyone!) comes up with something constructive anyways, and be it to show me concrete, factual (!) problems with something I do.

Valid, constructive criticism is tolerated and welcome on this board. Threats are another matter.

Lestradae, your mistakes are not a problem. The can be corrected, with the help of the community. However, your defensive and arrogant attitude is a problem. I suggest you adjust it.

[Lestradae]

@Ahruman:

I accept that the roles will have to be looked into after getting an explanation that I do understand, and will proceed to do so.

However, your defensive and arrogant attitude is a problem

My attitude developed from some people not patiently explaining to me what the problem was (if and when there was one) but just choosing to pester me instead.

If you have a look at my reactions posting-wise (and I`m sure you had), you might notice that if someone says something critical in an at least as good as polite way and that something is specific, I will also respond in a polite way and proceed to do something about it.

I have, for example, not the least problem with how for example you now and Little Bear explained the roles thing to me: It was to the point, and contained ideas of how to repair things.

I will however not let myself get bullied and/or insulted.

Perhaps, before throwing your weight in here declaring me arrogant, you consider this.

Thanks for your feedback.

L

[LittleBear]

Think you should just be careful with the roles "escort" "shuttle" and "wingman". Remember pirates get escorts too and Navy Ships escorting pirates doesn't really make sense. Shuttles need to be small. It doesn't really make sense for SuperCobras to try to land on the planet. If you give the Cops Super Cobra's my personal preference would be for making them very rare with the role probability. Its an expensive ship and Police forces have budgets to keep within! In Real Life most traffic cops have Ford Escorts. Most forces do have a few Super Cars in police livery but not many as they cannot afford them. They should also really have some flashing lights! (easy to do by sticking some blue and red flashers on as sub-entries to the cop version).

[matt634]

I have, for example, not the least problem with how for example you now and Little Bear explained the roles thing to me: It was to the point, and contained ideas of how to repair things.

Lestradae, I have always tried to be helpful to you in the past, and I'm trying to be helpful now. I guess allying myself with Mclane (sorry Mclane) on this one didn't put me in the best light, but this is the type of problem he has been warning about (changing things you don't understand).

My helpful advice remains the same. First, don't change the roles. The author's already assigned the appropriate roles for their ships and changing them results in unrealistic happenings. Second, if you do decide to stay with role switch'em up plan, I think you should include a disclaimer with the OXP. I'm sure lots of people (like myself) like the new price structure, and apparently many others like all the ships to be included together in one OXP. But, I highly doubt players want to see luxury ships acting as rock hermits, pirate ships acting as police, police acting as trading escorts, etc... You should at least let people know what they're getting into, so a disclaimer seems appropriate. You would of course have to fix the broken shuttles, miners, scavengers, police and hunters. I didn't get into the specifics of how to fix these as I think the best solution is to just not change the roles in the first place.

[Lestradae]

OK, guys ... perhaps some of my reactions have been a bit on the choleric side. I promise to take more care of this in the future.

@Ahruman:

You are right with your criticism. I will look deeper into how the roles work together and repair the inconsistencies. I have created a large oxp and feel responsible for it working properly in all aspects. And as quite a few people seem to play my oxp, I surely don`t want to undermine things you & contributers have been working at getting exactly right (like the scavenging) by sloppy changes I happen to make.

@Little Bear:

Thanks for your always friendly, polite and insightful (for me, because after your explanations I usually understand things better) comments. When I look into the role inconsistencies, I might PM you with a few questions and would be happy if I could count on your help via feedback a bit.

@matt634:

I guess allying myself with Mclane (sorry Mclane) on this one didn't put me in the best light

This is where you probably got some of my anger directed at McLane which was unjustified on my part. What you said did contain valid criticism, and will actually be helpful in making my oxp better.

Sorry to have lashed out at you for something you didn`t do.

@McLane:

McLane, just leave me be. EoC. Your scripting skills may be good, but your social ones aren`t. You have no respect for other people, and I`m not interested in communicating any further with you, neither on this board, via PM nor anywhere else.

You could have been helpful - you actually were helpful sometimes - but it seems to me you just couldn`t leave it at that, and this mess between us here is the result.

It`s neither arrogance nor a threat to tell someone who just doesn`t get basic principles of politeness towards oneself (myself) to leave me alone. And I do not want other people drawn into our conflict as it obviously starts to happen, I have no interest in any kind of wider conflict here, but in a friendly community with a shared hobby.

Have a nice day, all of you,

L

[Commander McLane]

Just for the record: I took no part whatsoever in this debate since this post on the first page of this now three-paged thread (I wasn't online since Friday noon). I noticed (without commenting) that Disembodied (it was Disembodied who had the encounter with Vipers, not Maegil, by the way) had not installed RS, and went home. So I don't know what draws the aggression towards me again.

I conclude: Lestradae not only doesn't know what he is doing, he also doesn't know whom he is talking to.

And I agree: You could call that EoC.

[FSOneblin]

Just for the record: I took no part whatsoever in this debate since this post on the first page of this now three-paged thread (I wasn't online since Friday noon). I noticed (without commenting) that Disembodied (it was Disembodied who had the encounter with Vipers, not Maegil, by the way) had not installed RS, and went home. So I don't know what draws the aggression towards me again.

I conclude: Lestradae not only doesn't know what he is doing, he also doesn't know whom he is talking to.

And I agree: You could call that EoC.

What the heck!?!?!?! He just told you to shut up for being a jerk, and you still are being mean. Go away, they should make it so you could block SOME PEOPLE from posting in you topic.

Now, I don't think that some ships shuold be police, landers, escorts, exe. But that is me, NOT YOU. You should do what you want to, with your oxp. Not what people want you to do. I like that it adds ships, and realism, my little brother loves to watch me play this and acts like he is in my crew. Now people, I'm going to have to quote from kindergarden to make you all shut up.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

[Disembodied]

You know, I'm really regretting mentioning seeing those extra Vipers...

Can we all just chill out a bit, please? I realise these things may gain an exaggerated importance in the minds of the protagonists, but really... give it the rubber ear, people! Rise above, maintain dignity in silence! It's really hard to bicker in a vacuum. Cease, desist, abstain and refrain, go your separate ways and agree to disagree, for pity's sake. The winner is the first NOT to respond.

[TGHC]

The winner is the first NOT to respond.

I like that a lot.........says he chilling out in the evening sun, cold beer in hand, with the sound of The Blue Danibe playing in the background........

[pagroove]

People,

Calm down!! It's a game. Yes, we commit a lot of time to it but it's still a game. Keep this board friendly. I loved this board due to the fact that there are very few flame wars.

I observed this discussion and I saw it escalate. There's no need for that. So be nice again to each other. If you are angry better start playing Oolite and shoot some pirates.

Back on topic. This is my observation:

I'm running 2 installs of Oolite one without RS (with my own ship set) and one without.

About weird behavior with RS I observed this:

In the one with RS I fired on the station. I observed that there where all kinds of ships launched except Vipers. And they behave weird indeed. The launch, loop and crash in the station.

Well I would be happy if Lestradae makes a new strict version because I like the pricing system very much. I find that part of the OXP a real improvement. However I want not all the ships and want a choice which to install.

[JensAyton]

Some clarifications I wrote in response to a private query; corrections welcome:

The only supported configuration for police is scan class CLASS_POLICE, bounty 0 and one of the roles police, interceptor or wingman. Interceptors are generated in addition to police in high-tech systems, while wingman is used instead of escort for police ships with an escorts property. The primary distinction between wingmen and escorts is that wingmen turn into police with route1patrolAI if their owner dies.

I can’t say what would happen for each possible “wrong” configuration, only that they’re not supported and behaviour may change at any time.