@Ahruman: Sellling Ships in 1.71 onwards

[Lestradae]

Hi Ahruman,

Wanted to ask if you intend to leave the ship selling -25% thing in in the next Oolite version and above

I have been thinking about it because it affects my oxp, and I think it`s not a very good solution in game balance terms. If you buy one of the more expensive ships, it can create a punishing 100.000 Cr+ loss! I think that`s too much.

What about reducing the price factor to, say 5% or so? That would still stop the chance of earning money with selling and buying ships without being so restrictive on buying a new ship, wouldn`t it?

I actually think that to have a small ship selling loss factor in makes sense, as it stops players from buying a new ship at every shipyard and enforces a bit of strategic consideration before buying. But not 25%

What I also noticed was that ships that have equipment beyond the standard version also seem to have enormous, sometimes ridculous sums slapped onto them. An added Military Shield seems to add more than 100.000 Cr to a ship`s price under some circumstances - don`t know how that`s calculated, but again seems rather hard to me, considering that the stuff costs in the 50.000 Cr range if bought afterwards. That actually makes buying a ship with lots of equipment beyond the standard version completely pointless and undesirable under nearly any circumstance.

What do you think Just some thoughts ...

L

[ovvldc]

Try selling a car after driving it for a year or two...

[Eric Walch]

Try selling a car after driving it for a year or two...

I think selling after just a month will also be financial painful.

[ovvldc]

My point exactly .

[Lestradae]

Hi,

the car analogy is quite interesting, but imho it can`t be compared to Oolite space ships.

Atmosphere and in-game logicwise, those ships fly in space and are of a technologically far more advanced kind than today`s cars. That means: Less breakdowns of no doubt nanotech self-repairing triple-backup-ed systems, no friction loss (a car, for example, accumulates lots of friction damage, which doesn`t occur in a vacuum), no rust (vacuum again), regular repairs that will, 1000 years plus in the future, probably put a ship back into a "rather new" state immediately.

And concerning the in-game balance, loosing 25% of the buying price immediately at buying a ship - EVERY TIME - makes absolutely no sense. It effectively punishes buying a new ship massively, for no reason at all.

As far as I understood, Ahruman put the -25% thing in for game reasons, as it was apparently possible to earn money by just buying and re-selling ships under certain conditions. Perhaps there are other solutions to that problem.

Because of that, I think for atmosphere and game balance alike it would make more sense to implement something more along the lines of -5% "used" -effect and perhaps, if need be, look into the maintenance overhaul mechanics - but not punish the buying of new ships as such.

Also, costs for equipment delivered with the standard ship are sometimes plainly absurd - so much so that it just doesn`t make sense at all to buy a ship with some of the more expensive equipment added in at buying.

What I also take into account is that without my Realistic Shipyards oxp (kindly have a look at my signature downbelow) ship prices don`t make even remote sense anyways. But if someone uses a realistic ship-pricing model, indiscriminate punishment for buying a new ship becomes a problem ...

Those are my reasons for suggesting a change here.

Have fun,

L

PS: If I stop answering at some point: I will be on holiday for two weeks from today on. I`m not ignoring anyone - just away

[Cmdr James]

Equipment cost is a function of tech level. Buying a highly expanded ship at a low tech planet will cost silly money.

I dont think it is a problem having a cost penalty of selling a ship, maybe 25% is a bit much, but it can easily be explained by taxes, profit for the shipyard, servicing and valet fees. Even charges for things like surveying and valuing (try selling a house, there are more charges than anyone could imagine).

There are a number of factor to take into account, and, as you point out, for very expensive ships, 25% is a massive charge, so it might be better to either cap charges, or to have bands (10-100k 20%, 100-200 15% 200k+ 10%)? alternatively there could be a fixed amount, plus a %age, say 5000Cr + 5% of total price.

[Lestradae]

Equipment cost is a function of tech level. Buying a highly expanded ship at a low tech planet will cost silly money.

Aha, I understand. That actually makes sense.

There are a number of factor to take into account, and, as you point out, for very expensive ships, 25% is a massive charge, so it might be better to either cap charges, or to have bands (10-100k 20%, 100-200 15% 200k+ 10%)? alternatively there could be a fixed amount, plus a %age, say 5000Cr + 5% of total price.

Those I find actually very good ideas! The bands sound interesting. 5000Cr + 5% of total price would probably be the easiest to implement. If both ideas are culminated, I think ships that cost beyond 400.000 Cr should have -5% (+ something fixed) as a maximum.

Have fun

L

[ovvldc]

I dont think it is a problem having a cost penalty of selling a ship, maybe 25% is a bit much, but it can easily be explained by taxes, profit for the shipyard, servicing and valet fees. Even charges for things like surveying and valuing (try selling a house, there are more charges than anyone could imagine).

And if we're moving house, nobody I know does that on a whim. You view many houses, and go for the one that suits your needs and tastes. Then consider that you have to paint, wallpaper, get new furniture, etc.

Now imagine getting a new starship. You have to live in there. That means a paint scheme, tweaking the climate controls, setting new TrumbleTraps, installing your own custom user interfaces, navigation subroutines, setting up the audio feeds....

Takes forever. Switching ships is a pain in the neck. No reason to encourage it. Get something and work with it for a while.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

I dont think it is a problem having a cost penalty of selling a ship, maybe 25% is a bit much, but it can easily be explained by taxes, profit for the shipyard, servicing and valet fees. Even charges for things like surveying and valuing (try selling a house, there are more charges than anyone could imagine).

And if we're moving house, nobody I know does that on a whim. You view many houses, and go for the one that suits your needs and tastes. Then consider that you have to paint, wallpaper, get new furniture, etc.

Now imagine getting a new starship. You have to live in there. That means a paint scheme, tweaking the climate controls, setting new TrumbleTraps, installing your own custom user interfaces, navigation subroutines, setting up the audio feeds....

Then again, there's the sail boats case: To build one, the hull is only one third to half of the boat's cost; the rest goes to engine, rigging, interior, equipment, etc., totalling very high indeed... however, a used boat the same size can be bought for a fifth, a tenth of that.
The funny part is that afterwards the price remains reasonably stable regardless of how many owners it had or if the boat is five, fifteen or fifty years old, considering that it is kept in good condition (overhauling before selling is a good dealers' advise - specially for themselves and the shipyards they work with ).
The biggest side expenditure'll usually go to transferring the register, taxes, etc., and here it can bite deep - if the boat is foreign, just on VAT it'll be 15~20%, plus this and that...

[Hoopy]

maybe there should be a distinction between a new and second hand ship.

new ones would be expensive and less common in the ship yards. s/h would be quite a lot cheaper, perhaps a little slower, a little rusty, slightly less enrgy etc - just like the rusty ships OXP.

when selling a new one you'd take a big hit, when selling a s/h one the hit would be much smaller.

[JensAyton]

The 25% is a workaround for a bug: the value of a ship being sold is calculated differently from the value of a ship being bought, and without the 25% penalty you can make a profit by repeatedly buying identical ships.

I don’t intend to remove the 25% thing until the calculation is fixed, which won’t be for 1.71.

[Lestradae]

I don’t intend to remove the 25% thing until the calculation is fixed, which won’t be for 1.71.

Well ... then so be it.

*waits for 1.72 already now*

L