VERY useful commodity concerning typos & bugs

[Lestradae]

Commander McLane,

my first gut-reaction would have been to just tell you to ... you know ... but then there are three reasons for me still answering you.

1. I am not entirely innocent concerning this conundrum - obviously my rant which I directed at you did insult you and you felt you had to defend your status here.

2. You have a few arguments fit for discussion in your contra-rant. So I will answer those.

3. It`s true that we have also had debates (concerning the solar systems idea, for example) where we managed to have a constructive discussion. Perhaps we can bring this thing here down from the level of imminent duel to something more akin to a controversial discussion.

I really don't know where your anger comes from. I can't imagine it's from what I have written. And I unfortunately don't know which sinister interpretation you're giving to it. What seems clear to me, is that you're not getting my point.

The sinister interpretation - and it was really this your assumed attitude that made the steam come out of my ears - was that you wanted the community as a whole to restrict OXPs to fit into what is acceptable for you personally as Elite 1.5, so to speak.

And I definitely don`t want that to happen. I want an open, thriving community, in which no one is inherently "better" than the other, in which creative ideas are valued and debated instead of attacked. And one in which conflicts are solved by constructive debate instead of Oolite Dogmas kept up by some Cardinals of Oolite.

Oolite doesn`t belong to you (it`s on a Creative Commons License), but you sound like it did.

No. The "core version" includes the canonical information around the game. Things like "The Dark Wheel". And it has nothing to do with the game's version number or a specific build. It has everything to do with the background of the game, which remains the same in all builds.

Lestradae wrote:
But I am definitely and ultimately against starting any attempt to put limitations on OXPs.

Sorry for you, but this is not thought through. Technically it is possible to script an OXP in which Galaxies 1 to 8 would not be GalCop territory, but federal or imperial, half of the planets would be inhabited by races from StarWars/StarTrek and GalCop would never even have existed. But this would not be an OXP (Oolite eXpansion Pack = something that expands Oolite as it is), but a total conversion. Doable, but it wouldn't be Elite anymore. If talking about OXPs, I assume that we are still talking about Elite. So there are some natural restrictions.

No, there actually aren`t. This is exactly the point that, imo, you just don`t seem to get.

While it may be desirable that OXPs that go far beyond the topical limitations of an Elite 1.5 (i.e. Star Wars ships or even territories, First Encounters ships and such) should be clearly labelled as such, how do you propose that this was gone about? You choose which OXPs may be made/displayed on the wiki/eligible or not, or what?

That`s exactly the line of thinking which made me angry in the first place.

No. It is you who constructs your personal Oolite which contains whatever you want, disregarding the logic framework of it, the thing that has been called he "spirit of Elite".

By making an OXP that makes ship prices and tech level availabilities completely consistent for the first time I "disregard the logic framework of it, the thing that has been called the "spirit of Elite"?" Whut?

What I want is quite the opposite: Maintaining the spirit of Elite by openly debating here on the board what is in this spirit and what is not. And it is by far not me making this decision.

Sounds different to me.

There are voices weighing far more than mine. I want to consult and consider them.

Those voices seemed to tell both of us to calm down a bit from the hot air balloon last time I imagined hearing them. And, I can`t bite back the remark, what is this now? Appeasing "the powers that be"?

Commander McLane, not even Giles or Ahruman "own" this game. It`s freeware, and anyone can tinker anything they want with it. And while I`m hugely grateful to those guys for doing what they do (and have said so once or twice) I am a grown up man, you know, and don`t need to ask for their admission to do something or leave it.

You don't. You are the one who thinks his personal taste, opinion and wishes rule.

They do. It`s a game. We have different tastes. Ahruman said that he thought there was no majority for and it didn`t fit his personal tastes to include a ship price tag like mine into the core game, and that`s fine with me.

So I made an OXP to solve this dissent. I thought the whole thing through a lot while making it. Some people will like the idea. They will use it. Some won`t. They won`t use it.

And you know why? Because their "personal taste, opinion and wishes rule". Not yours alone.

I am a scripter myself, long before you came in here.

Which does not, I assume, make you a better person or your opinions count more per se than those of other people.

One major OXP of mine, Anarchies, is released.

Which I love to play, by the way.

And of course the point of OXPs is to introduce something new into the Ooniverse. New stations, new ships, new missions, new twists, new powers and organisations etc. etc. I'm not opposed to that. Not the slightest little bit. What I am advocating is that these alterations and modifications of the Ooniverse are done sensibly. That they are somehow in-line with what we already knew about the Ooniverse before.

I can`t help finding this a bit funny still. My "alterations and modifications of the Ooniverse" were not done sensibly? "What we already knew about the Ooniverse before" = Massively incoherent ship prices? I don`t really understand what you are trying to say here.

the Ooniverse, and many of its facts are in fact derived from the canonic works

Canonic. Oh my flying spaghetti monster. And who decides what is canonic? You? The great old ones in the background? Or every single player of Oolite by OXP-choice? Don`t you see the tiniest little problem here, Commander McLane?

You feel angered by my objection to your wonderful OXP.

No, that`s really not the problem here. For me, it`s not even a problem at all. If you like it, by all means use it. If you don`t like it, don`t use it - or even rant about it. That`s OK with me. As long as you don`t try to bully me into changing it - no problem. I might even be relatively easy-to-convince to make changes to it. For example a personal Commander McLane edition without a certain octogonal ship in it.

I have no problem with any of the above.

Now, as you have finally understood how shipyard.plist works, and even shipdata.plist (again with a lot of help from others, by the way), you can do it. So you do it, just because you can. And again you want everybody to be proud of you.

Erm ... no. While I certainly enjoy praise about my OXP, I will live through it if there was none (too late). I also enjoy critisism, if it`s constructive. Constructive meaning something along the lines of: Why don`t you change this or that, or make this here optional etc.

You might not believe it, but I have a real life also outside of Oolite, and the praise I get there for one or the other thing or even myself is enough, thank you.

Concerning the "I am a better scripter than you, they even had to explain the shipdata for you" bit - come on, don`t go ridiculous. It is VERY easy to be a better scripter than me. Last time I "programmed" something was about 22 years ago on the Commodore 64 in Basic. Two weeks ago I didn`t even know what a shipdata.plist is.

What kind of argument is that? If my OXP is good will be about its creativity and ideas, or not? So, let`s not get into a "mine is bigger than your`s" debate either.

Because the simple truth is that you're not as big as you perhaps feel now. There are people here around Oolite who are way bigger than you.

See?

Without the patience LittleBear, Kaks and others showed in answering your rather stupid questions about shipyard.plist, shipdata.plist and the way the wiki works, you wouldn't even have accomplished what you did.

... insults ... very impressive ...

But I have to say I'm missing this respect in your work.

That`s a good one. "Respect". Read above. I don`t think you have a very clear concept of what the word means.

You come here and have far-reaching ideas.

How dare I?

For a start you have very little knowledge of how to implement them, so you ask other people for help.

Happening every day on the forums on different levels.

In case of your planetary systems idea it was me who took the time to think it through and give a long and - I think - quite comprehensive answer on what may be doable, and in what way, and what may be impossible, and what the implications of your idea are. In the present case there were a lot of people helping you out.

Yeah, and thanks everyone (including you) for that!

But you are not prepared to take their opinion and advice as well. And this is not fine, at least not with me

You mean, I`m not doing as you say and that is not fine with you. And that`s my problem with your attitude, over and over again in different incarnations.

... At its very beginning was a discussion here on the board that wasn't even started by me. Many people shared their views on the subject before I even started scripting, so there already was some sort of a common sense about it.

Perhaps it will interest you that the idea for a ship pricing OXP did not even originate by me: It was Ark. The idea had been thrown forwards and backwards on the boards a few times already. Ahruman told me he wouldn`t put something like that into the core game, guess what, so as not to limit the freedom of OXP scripters via core game!

At the same time, A. said how such an OXP could be accomplished. And I made one.

So concerning the Realistic Shipyards OXP "At its very beginning was a discussion here on the board that wasn't even started by me. ... People shared their views on the subject before I even started scripting, so there already was some sort of a common sense about it." definitely fits the ship pricing oxp then, yes or yes?

Not so with you. You don't take contributions from others. You just exploit their knowledge. And you don't respect the framework developed by B&B, Holdstock, Giles, and others.

... insults ... very impressive ...

You then go on citing the holy scriptures of Oolite to show your point that a Thargoid Warship for a player should effectively be forbidden.

Commander McLane. I don`t know how to finish this. I don`t want to insult you. I also don`t want this to continue into a Sung-style problem.

I also won`t let you insult me.

My personal problem with you is that you do not seem to have enough basic respect towards other people if they are not of your opinion or imagined status, especially if they are non-scripters/programmers.

I could speculate that there are few things outside Oolite & the Oolite Community where you are valued and which are really important to you. Perhaps I shouldn`t. But I would think about that point if I were you.

The only thing that connects us at the moment is that we are massive fans of Oolite and that this game is of great emotional importance to both of us. However, let`s not forget that there`s a Real Life out there!

My topical problem with your POV is that I am totally opposed to any restriction on OXP content, even if it was a Wookie Empire total rework of all 8 galaxies (I wouldn`t play something like that, before someone asks).

I have no problem and would second the core game continuing to contain only things all people interested consider fitting to an Elite 1.5, and with OXPs being labelled as "Elite stuff", "fringe Elite", "alternate add-ins" and "total conversions".

But the decision which OXPs to play and even which one`s to make should lie exclusively with the players - every single one of them. If that`s ever going to change, I`m out of here, and I won`t go quietly.

So ... can we get back to something remotely resembling respect and discussions with arguments in about dissenses, or what?

Very grumpy

L

[TGHC]

Yeah cool it, we're all friends here.

I like LB's ideas, would make it an interesting mission, and perhaps that should be how this could be made available, ie that it would not be available in the shipyard unless you had the mission oxp loaded, that way it would suit everybody.....sort of

[Commander McLane]

Let's cut the long story short and, indeed, return to something constructive.

Lestradae, you are still missing my point. I have nothing at all against your repricing of ships. On the contrary, I find the underlying formula very useful. So, please don't fight a battle where there is none.

The only objection I have made is against making a Thargoid Carrier available for the player without a good reason (read: a reason that makes sense within the logic framework of the Ooniverse). As it turns out, you actually have implemented a reason in your OXP, in form of a small storyline (although I haven't yet checked it out, but I take your word for it). Thus my objection loses its ground.

The only thing remaining is that you could have spared us this debate, if you had mentioned in your first post that there is actually a small storyline that justifies the availability of a Thargoid Carrier. Then I probably would not have filed an objection altogether.

And I definitively would like to play a mission along the lines LittleBear has drawn. The story he is plotting makes sense to me. Just making a Thargoid Carrier a buyable ship like a Cobra doesn't. And that's the whole point I am debating here.

*****

[Commander McLane]

@LB: I think this would be a great opportunity to bring the Naval Research and Development Complex on Ribilebi to OXP-life (AFAIK up to now it only exists in the wiki, or am I wrong here?).

[Lestradae]

Hi,

OK, we both cooled down. Good.

So at the center of the debate is the player-accessible Thargoid Warship. I have no problem at all with a mission being built in nescessary to acquire it - just that I, as repeatedly mentioned, by far can`t script well enough to do it.

If someone created an oxp or an additional part for the Realistic Shipyards which would contain a secret reconnaissance mission which started at, say, the Naval Research and Development Complex on Ribilebi, I would actually find that an intriguing idea.

I would still find it a good idea that AFTER the completion of this mission the Thargoid Warship becomes buyable by the player, but isn`t just awarded. The reasons being:

1. The ship really is x million credits worth. To just award it - for whatever reason - would create a mission award far beyond any other currently in the game.

2. It`s really easy to script conditions for ships appearing in a shipyard (even for me). For example, the three ships buyable in the Realistic Shipyards are connected to a certain Elite Ranking and a clean criminal record. I have not concocted a very explicit background story for that, but I find that obvious: The Navy will only let a shipyard offer you a certain ship if you have achieved a certain level of trust & competence with them. So, a new condition could be added that the research mission has been successfully completed in addition to that.

3. If it`s not awarded but must still be bought, players can still change ship, and even buy or re-buy the Thargoid Warship. There is more choice. And it would also fit into a Ribilebi mission background story: After having acquired one ship, the Navy can retro-engineer most of their internal structure - and those ships have to be regularly testflown by really reliable Commanders of the deadly persuasion to understand them better ... for perhaps one day they will even understand that strange biological hyperdrive ... could this be sabotaged by an infection?

So, if someone is found to make an oxp for that or creates something that can be included into the RS, just go forth and do it!

In the meantime, if someone finds the Thargoid Warship without a mission unfitting for Oolite, open the Realistic Shipyards shipyard.plist, search for thargoid-player, and put the tech level number to 99. Snap. No Thargoid Warship, ever.

Fine that we are at debating again!

L

PS: OXP-included impromptu background story for the stolen Thargoid Warship upcoming

[Lestradae]

HACKER`S OUTPOST 44/09, RIBILEBI OORT CLOUD

*Hacked ultracoded Galactic Navy video - incoming message*

Note: People, you gotta see this. If this is not part of GalCop`s desinformation campaigns, we might be on to a sensational story. They will try to keep this out of the public. We will not let them. The truth is out there!

*Message ends. One AddOn. Warning: Could contain malicious half-sentient AI Code. You want to activate the AddOn Y/N?*

***

Great Chairman Charlie: "Commander Kaks calling me at this time of night? What`s going on?"

Head of Research Department Kaks: "Ahm, uh, Sir, I think you should come down to the research department immediately. The Galactic Navy are here, Sir. And they have, ahm, brought something."

Great Chairman Charlie: "And why can`t this wait until my morning coOffee?"

Head of Research Department Kaks: "Well, Sir, there has been a space battle with the bugs, in the system of Ceesxe."

Great Chairman Charlie: "So?"

Head of Research Department Kaks: "There was a crash. On the continent of New Roswell. Three of the pilots were still alive, far too injured to kill themselves or their ship ..."

Great Chairman Charlie *sprouts untimely morning coOffee over intercom, gets frantic*: "Wait a moment. Are you actually implying ..."

Head of Research Department Kaks: "Oh great chairman Charlie, yes. I am. There are a few Admirals from the Naval Research and Development Complex on Ribilebi here. It`s all Above Top Secret. In our docking bay is a ..."

Great Chairman Charlie: "Coming."

*Five minutes later*

Commander Lestradae: "No. Oh no. Oh no. Just no. Uargh."

Head of Research Department Kaks: "Come on, Lestradae. This must be the wet dream of every veteran pilot, isn`t it your`s?"

Commander Lestradae: "No, please tell me I`m dreaming. That this is not what is seems to be. Somehow, this doesn`t feel right. This can`t be true. Its not right. Make it go away!"

Head of Research Department Kaks (to himself): "Since that Condor Flagship incident he hasn`t been his old self any more." (louder) "Commander Lestradae, the Galactic Navy needs a test pilot to test-fly this thing. The Galactic Navy needs you."

Great Chairman Charlie (unshaven, in interestingly mangled bathing suit, a bit starry-eyed): "There we go again. Calm down, man. No need to worry so much!" *nearly chokes on a gigantic piece of edible Benulobiweed* "The Galactic Navy needs to understand this ship. It could be crucial to the war effort. No war success, no business. No business, no Benulobiweed Inc. No Benulobiweed Inc., no big paycheck for Commander Lestradae."

Commander Lestradae: "OK." *visibly drags himself together* "You tell me, that they need pilots of deadly prowess to testfly this thing and the clones they are going to make of it. The only thing I have to do is having my cerebric fear glands surgically removed, and to get implants installed in my head, for I have to steer this baby with my brain. Is that right?"

Head of Research Department Kaks: "Yes, that`s right."

Commander Lestradae: "OK."

Head of Research Department Kaks: "What?"

Great Chairman Charlie: "What?"

Commander Lestradae: "I must be crazy."

Head of Research Department Kaks (to himself): "Probably not news to me ..." *louder* "Congratulations, Commander Lestradae. You will be the first one to ..."

Admiral McLane: "Can we cut the smalltalk now and get to business. I came here from Lave Academy this morning. Are those Narcotics I see in your mouth, Mr. Charlie? You are not beyond GalCop regulations here, you know?"

Commander Lestradae (to himself): "If I fly this ship, I will get away from those people and their squabbling faster ..."

All four turn around, and here it comes, into view of the regional Hacker`s Outpost`s spycams. It`s a Thargoid Warship. It sits on the floor of the Benulobiweed, Inc. docking bay.

And it is completely intact.