MMORPG

[Killer Wolf]

"You mean fidicurially cost-free. It costs a great deal, no matter how you pay for it. "

[TGHC]

@ Callas

Ok matey, you seem to be very knowledgeable and full of good ideas, so why don't you just get on with it, we'll all be grateful, and your name will become legendary!

Somehow though I don't see it happening.

[Commander McLane]

I'm not at all a friend of making Oolite into a MMPwhatever. My reasons (some of them have already been mentioned by other people here, but in that case this is to say that I second them):

- First of all that would mean kicking me (and everybody else with a not-state-of-the-art internet connection) off this game. I have internet access only in my office, only during certain hours of the day, only if it's not raining and (all these conditions given) with a speed of max. 5 Kbps. There is absolutely NO WAY I could play anything online-based. So for me personally any thinking in a direction ends here.

- Second I am also worried about the inclusion of OXPs. Who would decide which OXPs would be included? I personally have installed some, some others I deliberate don't install (e.g. I personally don't like to meet ships from SF-series). Other players have other preferences. As long as everybody decides what to install in his AddOns-folder according to his personal preferences that's fine. When everything is on one central server we won't get along with each others personal taste.

- Third I have to reject the idea of limiting Oolite to Galaxy 1 only. Most of the most interesting stuff (OXPs) in Oolite is bound to other galaxies. So IMHO this kind of limitation would cost Oolite everything.

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off-topic @ Callas: I agree with your opponents and would even say you are the one with the limited view. This crude economism--calculating everything in money--is among the most narrow-minded "weltanschauungen" I possibly could imagine. One could even argue that it's straightforwardly evil. And it already rules most of the world. So don't let it rule the Ooniverse (and our little community) as well!

[Roberto]

I'd be interested to discover what "fidicurially" means. I'm a writer/editor, and have never encountered that word before!

[Commander McLane]

I'd be interested to discover what "fidicurially" means. I'm a writer/editor, and have never encountered that word before!

A quick look into my Webster's gave the same result as a quick Google-search: 0 hits, nothing.

So my guess is a mis-spelling/mis-understanding of something he recently learned in an economics-lecture.

[JensAyton]

Hmm! the BB appears to have converted your news: URL into a link to google groups!

No, it didn’t. :-)

[Callas]

- First of all that would mean kicking me (and everybody else with a not-state-of-the-art internet connection) off this game. I have internet access only in my office, only during certain hours of the day, only if it's not raining and (all these conditions given) with a speed of max. 5 Kbps. There is absolutely NO WAY I could play anything online-based. So for me personally any thinking in a direction ends here.

Servers could each offer distinct aspects of MMORPG, and you could select which servers you wish to use. Using none leaves you in single player Oolite mode.

That means you could use those servers you like, and benefit from them, while you have net access. You would also restrict useage to those which fit within your bandwidth (e.g. messaging).

I have to say though, your conditions are extreme. I think the typical Oolite player to has broadband. It may or may not be right for all sorts of reasons to make Oolite MMORPG, but not going to MMORPG because 1% of players have wet string is improper. Those players should not have so strong an influence upon so many others.

- Second I am also worried about the inclusion of OXPs. Who would decide which OXPs would be included? I personally have installed some, some others I deliberate don't install (e.g. I personally don't like to meet ships from SF-series). Other players have other preferences. As long as everybody decides what to install in his AddOns-folder according to his personal preferences that's fine. When everything is on one central server we won't get along with each others personal taste.

This is an issue. There are OXPs I would strongly object to.

- Third I have to reject the idea of limiting Oolite to Galaxy 1 only. Most of the most interesting stuff (OXPs) in Oolite is bound to other galaxies. So IMHO this kind of limitation would cost Oolite everything.

This is a failure-of-vision objection. If Oolite is MMORPG, the situation will change dramatically, and so this concern will be inappalicable. To put it another way; you are taking one aspect of an entire new situation, applying it to the current situation, and saying "this will be a problem".

off-topic @ Callas: I agree with your opponents

It's not so black and white.

and would even say you are the one with the limited view. This crude economism--calculating everything in money--is among the most narrow-minded "weltanschauungen" I possibly could imagine. One could even argue that it's straightforwardly evil. And it already rules most of the world. So don't let it rule the Ooniverse (and our little community) as well!

You are projecting your views on to me, on the basis of a few posts. Most of what you think comes from your imagination of my worldview, rather than knowing what I think.

For example, I've only spoken about voluntary work being the equivelent of contributing money, which is true. I've not stated that all things are measurable in money, which you have asserted is my view. It is wrong to think that the latter view must exist if the former is stated.

[Roberto]

Yes, but what does "fidicurially" mean?

[Callas]

Yes, but what does "fidicurially" mean? :)

Pecuniarily.

[Roberto]

Nice! I would use monetarily myself, but each to his own

[Commander McLane]

I have to say though, your conditions are extreme. I think the typical Oolite player to has broadband. It may or may not be right for all sorts of reasons to make Oolite MMORPG, but not going to MMORPG because 1% of players have wet string is improper. Those players should not have so strong an influence upon so many others.

...

I've only spoken about voluntary work being the equivelent of contributing money, which is true.

Actually these a two sides of the same coin.

- Where I am living the internet-conditions are as they are. I have to live with them. Period. But why the hell does that make my conditions count less than anybody else's? Because I am in a minority position? Because I am obviously living in a poor part of the world (the money thing again)? So my value (which can be expressed in money) is lower than that of other players?

- Voluntary work being the equivalent of money. This is NOT true. Where I am living not even non-voluntary work is an equivalent of money. And voluntary work could be seen as an equivalent of friendship, of family relations, of community relations, of other voluntary work done by somebody for me, even of a religious obligation, but certainly NOT of money. So your economistic point of view is simply not true universally.

Why are these two sides of the same coin? Because your position represents a worldview which THINKS itself to be universally while completely failing to see that it isn't. You MISTAKENLY assume that your own standard is a universal one, with perhaps a few people as exceptions, for whom nobody cares.

The simple fact however is that at least 90% of the population of this planet do NOT live like you, NEITHER in a broadband society NOR in a money-centered community. So you are the minority (who shouldn't have so strong an influence upon so many others--your words, not mine).

[Callas]

- Where I am living the internet-conditions are as they are. I have to live with them. Period. But why the hell does that make my conditions count less than anybody else's? Because I am in a minority position? Because I am obviously living in a poor part of the world (the money thing again)? So my value (which can be expressed in money) is lower than that of other players?

Your individual value is exactly that of every other individual.

There are however, for every thousand individuals (in the Oolite player base), nine hundred and ninty with broadband and ten with wet string. Accordingly, it seems improper to decide the direction of the game on the basis of those with wet string.

I'm probably exaggerating slightly. I expect broadband rates to be about 80% in the Oolite player base, rather than 99%.

- Voluntary work being the equivalent of money. This is NOT true. Where I am living not even non-voluntary work is an equivalent of money. And voluntary work could be seen as an equivalent of friendship, of family relations, of community relations, of other voluntary work done by somebody for me, even of a religious obligation, but certainly NOT of money. So your economistic point of view is simply not true universally.

Your voluntary work has am equivelant monetary value. That value is the amount of money you forego by performing voluntary work instead of paid work. To put it another way; if you spend one hour working on a contract, you might be paid 50 UKP. If you spend that hour working for free, you have lost the 50 UKP you would otherwise have made. This is indisputable.

Contributing to others - be it monetary, or in monetary equivelents - is a decent, generous and kind activity. The type of contribution is irrelevant.

The simple fact however is that at least 90% of the population of this planet do NOT live like you, NEITHER in a broadband society NOR in a money-centered community. So you are the minority (who shouldn't have so strong an influence upon so many others--your words, not mine).

I think you have taken off like a rocket!

The discussion about broadband access rates is purely with regard to the Oolite player base, with regard to MMORPG viability.

[Callas]

Nice! I would use monetarily myself, but each to his own :)

I don't actually know where I learned it from, and I have a nasty suspicion it is not actually a word, although I'm sure I read it. But it's so firmly in my head I keep using it, and people more or less get the idea of what it means from the context. I may need to turn to pecuniary.

[JensAyton]

For the record: I for one have no intention to contribute towards Oolite becoming online-only. I also have no interest at this time in working on network code, but working submissions will be gratefully accepted.

Any further discussion of economic theory in the Discussion forum will be deleted without further notice. Take it to Outworld.

[JensAyton]

By the way, an economic sim as proposed would have to conform to established Oolite design policy to be accepted into the mainline. In particular, this means that the effects of inidividual players on the economy would have to be very small (currently zero), and the effects of much larger non-player interests would have to be much larger (currently simulated by random fluctuations). This would still require a lot of work to integrate into the game.

Given this, I suggest not using economics as a starting point.