Planetfall 2.0 (apparently)

[phkb]

and have landing gear

I would argue that all ships must have landing gear, which would be used when docked at any station. While some sort of tractor-tech might be used to maneuver your ship into it's docked berth, I doubt it would be worth the energy expense to keep your ship hovering while docked.

[Redspear]

But what happens in a more vanilla flavoured Oolite if one lands on a moon without PlanetFall loaded?

Assuming you have the extra planets/moons...

Crater.

[phkb]

How many Landing sites per Planet or Moon are you thinking of?

Not sure what the balance should be. I think something like 3-5 for the main planet, and maybe 2-4 for secondary planets with atmosphere, and maybe 1-3 for moons. Happy to tweak these numbers, and I'll probably add some Library Config code so you can potentially tweak at it yourself).

Note to self: Add Library Config tweaking code.

[Redspear]

I'd presumed that pirates were mostly based in anarchies. Some on the planet surface, many on Rock Hermits and with just a handful masquerading as innocents at the GalCop Main Orbitals. Where do your pirates operate out of, Redspear?

You mean theoretically/lore-wise?

My point was more mundane i.e. that you encounter them along the space lane, however as you've asked...

I suspect they mostly operate out of desperation.
More than just a pun, I think it actually fits the idea that the galaxies are becomming more dangerous places. With more piracy comes less succesful trade leading to more desperate people leading to... more piracy.

As for where they come from: all over.
The well equipped finding themselves in anarchies where they can hold their own, with the less well equipped being essentially forced out into safer systems.
Thus the (original at least) paradoxical situation of less effective pirates in better policed areas. It could also lead to an arms race of slower ships sticking to safer systems, where they are preyed on by the slower pirates; as I recently argued hinted at in an update of Traffic Redistributer.

[phkb]

Returning to the reason for visiting planetary locations. Ideas:

1. Shuttle missions (taking passengers from main station to main planet and back again). Probably wouldn't pay a lot, though. I'll have to check if In-System Taxi covers this scenario (main planet to main station), in which case, it's already covered.

2. Medical shuttle missions (variation on 1), going from station to planet on high TL systems, possibly the other way for low TL maybe? Would require a specialised transport unit. Planet to station is fairly low risk, so perhaps the destination needs to be in another system, rather than just local.

3. Cargo - moving cargo from planet to main station for sale. I don't imagine these as similar to existing cargo contracts. Instead, you'd fill your hold with goods, but using the player.ship.useSpecialCargo function (as used during the Nova mission, for instance), which basically takes up all cargo space. Then, when you arrive, it's taken away and you get your cargo hold back. To increase risk, rather than just going to the main station, it would be to another station in system, or another planetary location, thereby extending the journey and allowing for the possibility of pirate interference.

4. Local projects. By this I mean, the government/a corporation/an entity on planet X needs 5000T of alloys to build a huge dam/building/macguffin/etc on the planet. You get paid a bonus for how much cargo you can delivery before the expiry date. Some of these project could influence (+/-) the political or economic situation on the planet. On systems beset by civil war, this could be extended to things like delivering firearms to a contact at a location not covered by GalCop (wasteland, dump, fields, etc). Cargo would have to be source outside the system, so standard space flight risks involved.

5. Prisoner transport (would require a system with a moon-based prison location). Again, need a specialised transport unit. Risks for this could include being just by the prisoners buddies after launching, or having the prisoners break out of the transport unit, damaging a pile of kit, and escaping via an airlock (or escape pod, if you have one).

6. Delivery machinery to farms/raw matrerials to factories. Again, using the useSpecialCargo to keep this away from of being just another cargo contract. Could be intercepted between planets by pirates, and damage to your ship could result in damage to what you're transporting, and then you don't get paid as much at the other end.

Some of these I can see being offered through something like GalCop missions. Certainly via the BB, anyway.

Any of those sound intriguing enough to opt into? Are there other risks these missions might encounter?

[hiran]

Another case could be cargo transport that must not go through 'official' channels. Sneak prohibited goods to/from the planet. Avoid being watched.

Spy missions where information needs to be picked up and delivered asap.

[Nite Owl]

Returning to the reason for visiting planetary locations. [Much More in the original post]

All well and good for Missions but there should still be some sort of Landing Site that closely resembles an Orbital Station in terms of Trade Goods, Equipment, and a Ship Yard. See the following quote of myself for the reasoning on this. As Redspear stated: too easy, Yes, but still needed in my humble opinion.

[Reasoning]
Why land on Planets or Moons? With the Station for Extra Planets suite of OXZs in place there is a random element as to how many Planets are generated in a specific system. If this number is low then the number of Stations in orbit above them will be low. Combine this with Market Quantity randomness and The Player may not be able to fill their Cargo Hold in that specific system. Never liked the idea of having to jump to multiple systems to fill my Cargo Hold. So in a system with these conditions Planetary and Lunar Landings become a viable alternative.

[Second Part]
Provided that the many different types of Landing Sites from the original could be kept.

The Second Part of that self quote led me to do some research into the original Planetfall and have a rethink. In the original we have the following Landing Sites.

Code: Select all

Note that the sub-surface and dome aspects of the original Planetfall Landing Sites have been ignored in the following as they are basically duplicates of what is listed here.
================= 1
Capital City
Colony City
================= 2
Ship Yard
Seedy Bar
Leisure Complex
Factory
Prison
Research Complex
================= 3
Farm
Mine
Military Base
================= 4
Fields
Dump
Waste Land

Group 1 are Cities. It does not really matter if they are a Capital City or a Colony City. Given the variety of Government types there could be more than one Capital City. Group 2 are all various Locations that are generally found within a City. As such they do not need to be separate Landing Sites. Group 3 are Locations that a Player would not generally land at. Farms and Mines would be shipping their Trade Goods to the nearest City for distribution either around the Planet or outwards into Space. A Planet's Military Bases are not an ideal Landing Site for foreign Spacecraft for security reasons. Group 4 only makes sense in the context of the Randomness that the original Planetfall had. If a Spacecraft has any type of sensors it should be able to tell the difference between a City and an empty Field.

Following the above rethought logic then the only Deterministic Landing Sites would be Cities. In light of phkb's and other's ideas about Missions there could be a bit more Landing Site variety to accommodate that need. Non-Deterministic Landing Sites like Towns (think Mos Eisley), Military Bases, Smuggler Dens, etc. could be used for Missions. The lack of a Save Game possibility would up the danger of such Missions and Landing Sites.

This rather long post is, as always, just my current thoughts on the matter. Who knows, these thoughts may change again if the wind blows in a different direction. Take it with whatever grains of salt floats your boat and other such cliches. Thank You for reading. Any commentary and discussion is always welcome.

[Redspear]

Combine this with Market Quantity randomness and The Player may not be able to fill their Cargo Hold in that specific system.

So maybe there IS a market BUT it's prices match the main station. Player then has access to more of whatever they're buying but without an in-system exploit?... Bit harder to justifty what the main station is for then though.

So if the station weren't to enable the planet to trade with other systems then is it for GalCop to act as a middle man? I'm not sure about this.

5. Prisoner transport (would require a system with a moon-based prison location). Again, need a specialised transport unit. Risks for this could include being just by the prisoners buddies after launching, or having the prisoners break out of the transport unit, damaging a pile of kit, and escaping via an airlock (or escape pod, if you have one).

Penal colonies to transfer pirate escape pods to?

You could either sell thrm as slaves at the main station a la elite (brutal) or be a good space-being and take them to a (potentially distant) penal colony for a (potentially sizeable) reward.

Maybe you could even release them wherever they wanted (planetside) and they reward you personally... or not. If the player rep was more as a pirate then there might be some mutual respect of a sort and maybe a reward or offer of a mission.

[cbr]

Returning to the reason for visiting planetary locations. Ideas:

1. Shuttle missions (taking passengers from main station to main planet and back again). Probably wouldn't pay a lot, though. I'll have to check if In-System Taxi covers this scenario (main planet to main station), in which case, it's already covered.

2. Medical shuttle missions (variation on 1), going from station to planet on high TL systems, possibly the other way for low TL maybe? Would require a specialised transport unit. Planet to station is fairly low risk, so perhaps the destination needs to be in another system, rather than just local.

3. Cargo - moving cargo from planet to main station for sale. I don't imagine these as similar to existing cargo contracts. Instead, you'd fill your hold with goods, but using the player.ship.useSpecialCargo function (as used during the Nova mission, for instance), which basically takes up all cargo space. Then, when you arrive, it's taken away and you get your cargo hold back. To increase risk, rather than just going to the main station, it would be to another station in system, or another planetary location, thereby extending the journey and allowing for the possibility of pirate interference.

4. Local projects. By this I mean, the government/a corporation/an entity on planet X needs 5000T of alloys to build a huge dam/building/macguffin/etc on the planet. You get paid a bonus for how much cargo you can delivery before the expiry date. Some of these project could influence (+/-) the political or economic situation on the planet. On systems beset by civil war, this could be extended to things like delivering firearms to a contact at a location not covered by GalCop (wasteland, dump, fields, etc). Cargo would have to be source outside the system, so standard space flight risks involved.

5. Prisoner transport (would require a system with a moon-based prison location). Again, need a specialised transport unit. Risks for this could include being just by the prisoners buddies after launching, or having the prisoners break out of the transport unit, damaging a pile of kit, and escaping via an airlock (or escape pod, if you have one).

6. Delivery machinery to farms/raw matrerials to factories. Again, using the useSpecialCargo to keep this away from of being just another cargo contract. Could be intercepted between planets by pirates, and damage to your ship could result in damage to what you're transporting, and then you don't get paid as much at the other end.

Some of these I can see being offered through something like GalCop missions. Certainly via the BB, anyway.

Any of those sound intriguing enough to opt into? Are there other risks these missions might encounter?

1-3 those are nice for commanders low on credits
3a delivery to in system moons/ rock hermit
3b faster cargo delivery collected from Dredgers to planet
4 would be the one for iron ass traders
5 prisoner transport cq. 'pirate' transport-> transporting passengers from pirate rock hermit /spacebars and coves to the planet
6 ok

Damages related to the risk from re-entry but perhaps not random chance only

[Thargoid]

Not much to add technical-wise, but just to say I'm pleased to see this old OXP/OXZ is still going, and in good hands.

Back in the day when I wrote it, most of what you're proposing wasn't actually possible (e.g. saving on the planet), which is a testiment to how far the game has come in the the 16 years ( ) since the original release...

Right on Commanders (and sub-Admirals).

T

[Cholmondely]

5. Prisoner transport (would require a system with a moon-based prison location). Again, need a specialised transport unit. Risks for this could include being just by the prisoners buddies after launching, or having the prisoners break out of the transport unit, damaging a pile of kit, and escaping via an airlock (or escape pod, if you have one).

The idea is great. But unsure about the reality. Which country on the surface of this planet would hire a taxi-driver or some such - out of the blue! - to transport a criminal?

It might have happened historically, but one would presumably have to be know to and trusted by the relevant authorities. Can this be easily modelled in Oolite? I think LitF might have a more sophisticated treatment of "reputation" from what Massively Locked told me.

Also, the GalCop Vipers have bags of space: "The Viper is a single pilot craft, but can carry up to ten humanoid passengers". (from Viper (Classic)/Viper (Oolite)). So they could easily do it themselves... so one needs a good reason to ask the player...

[Redspear]

I'm pleased to see this old OXP/OXZ is still going

Good to see you on these boards again, even if only a flying visit.

[Cholmondely]

Returning to the reason for visiting planetary locations. [Much More in the original post]

All well and good for Missions but there should still be some sort of Landing Site that closely resembles an Orbital Station in terms of Trade Goods, Equipment, and a Ship Yard. See the following quote of myself for the reasoning on this. As Redspear stated: too easy, Yes, but still needed in my humble opinion.

Super to see the list of landing sites. Thank you, Nite Owl. It gets the imaginative juices flowing...

The Space Ports would have equipment & ship yards. Definitely. And there might well be other opportunities elsewhere to buy equipment (I'm thinking of Weapon Laws here... and buying a wider range of equipment away from the supervision of GalCop - and ideally fly to the weapon outfitter's site from the space-port.)

But a commodities market which works as easily as the ones in space? I'm sure that CorCom would wish to sell the equipment to the planetary authorities. But would that sort of market actually exist in each of the Space Ports in Oolite's 2500-odd solar systems?

I would expect to find contracts available for the bulk shipments coming and going from the space port. There might well be opportunities to buy and sell smaller amounts of commodities - but through corporations or smaller dealers.

And without the percentage that GalCop cream off to fund their operations. And without the costs of ferrying it up to or down from the main orbital.

Perhaps the Commodity Markets OXP should be included with the 4%-10% spread for the planet markets - and a much larger spread representing the GalCop cut for the main orbital?

[phkb]

Also, the GalCop Vipers have bags of space

True, but would GalCop Vipers get involved in what is, presumably, a local planetary matter? I thought they were more focused on policing the spacelanes, rather than dealing with planet-side criminals.

Which country on the surface of this planet would hire a taxi-driver or some such - out of the blue! - to transport a criminal?

One that has limited resources, or complete trusts the specialised transport unit to do it's job no matter who is flying, or maybe just doesn't care that much. I take your point about reputation, though. GalCop Missions incorporates a reputation matrix, so perhaps after you've completed a few other, low-risk missions for the planetary authority, they'd be willing to take you on for prisoner transport.

The Second Part of that self quote led me to do some research into the original Planetfall and have a rethink. In the original we have the following Landing Sites.

You missed out "Colony Domes" on moons. Counts as a city I guess.

Following the above rethought logic then the only Deterministic Landing Sites would be Cities.

That makes sense. And even my mission requirement to allow you to meet up with a mission contact, that could easily be achieved at a non-capital city.

Non-Deterministic Landing Site

To be clear, there will be *no* non-deterministic landing sites. In my view, a docked station you can't save at is a *broken* station.

Not sure if that adjusts your thinking at all.

There could still be factory or military landing sites, as those could be quite large in and of themselves. A leisure complex could also have a separate landing site: think Las Vegas, for the 33rd century. Farms and fields, yeah, probably not so much. Dump sites could have a unique landing spot, and some easy missions to cart garbage from a city to a dump could slot into it. This is for both the main planet and extra planets.

For moons, I think if you spawn a colony dome, there probably isn't a need for a separate leisure dome. But if you don't get a dome, a leisure dome could be possible.

For all locations, would a Seedy Space bar have its own destination? I think probably not.

So, here's my thinking based on this:
1. Merge the "Shipyard" into the "Cities" entity.
2. Spawn more city entities (maybe somewhere between 5-6 for main planets, 3-4 for extra planets).
3. Remove "Seedy Space Bars", "Farms" and "Fields".
4. On moons, only allow a leisure complex to spawn if there are no colony domes present.

Could there be multiple leisure complexes, or dumps, or factories? Maybe? I guess I could add more Library Config options to control how many of each type you can spawn!

[Cholmondely]

I'm presuming that it will be tweakable - eg if we wish to add in Cousin Digby's polo fields...

The dramatic date of the dialogue is set around 3150 CE, on the expansive polo fields of the Duchy of the Dark Desert of Digebiti, littered with broken sedan chairs, inter-city palanquins and a functioning cocktail bar. The chairmen have gone home. One lonely barman is waving his cocktail shaker lackadaisically over the till. It is early evening and the star of Lave has just risen over the horizon.