Controversy Corner

[Redspear]

The oolite update of the trusty old viper police ship.

Twice as fast as a cobra mk I, military lasers as standard, fuel injectors by default and a recharge rate one and a third times that of a fer de lance. There's nothing that comes even close to it in the standard game, at least not that travels in packs anyway...

• Why's it there in the first place? (the case for)
  • default player ship is faster than the standard viper (wasn't in elite)
  • oxp ships could be (and often are) faster still
  • needs to be some threat for the fugitive player
  • shield boosters and the like can make the player especially tough

• What's to gain by removing it? (the case against)
  • the viper pursuit was made just fast enough to catch the player cobra, the interceptor isn't needed to replicate the elite environment, give the pursuit injectors by default and they could even inherit the interceptor ship model
  • being faster than all of the standard player ships just resets the bar for oxp design, it doesn't solve the problem - as for the asp, let it outrun them, it has no cargo space and it's injectors will only last so long
  • the oft imagined state of affairs of an overrun police force and a dangerous Ooniverse doesn't really hold up in systems with interceptors (if they don't always outnumber the pirates, they certainly outgun them), the only reason the pirates are there at all in such systems may be that the poulator hasn't given the interceptors sufficient time to hunt them all down before the player can torus to the station
  • bounty hunters exist of course and could include the asp - any oxp ships that can outrun it would likely be similarly suited to the role

As long as the player ship can't outrun a hardhead missile (750 or 0.75LM) without injector use then there's a means for it to fear a viper patrol. Give them the military lasers if necessary (or a long range version of the beam laser if that's too much) but IMHO the interceptor just highlights that non-police ship design in the 32nd(?) century is lagging behind significantly. It could be argued that is realistic but I'm not sure it matches the ooniverse described in the blurb on the oolite website.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.

Rightly or wrongly, I get the inmpression that it's not collapsing any time soon with interceptors around.

As usual, other thoughts welcome.

[Cholmondely]

Question.

There are some dozen or so versions of Classic Elite.

Can we be sure that the Viper Intercept was not based on one or two of them? There was a Viper Mark 2 in FFE.


On the other hand, Murgh mentioned that Aegidian originally gave the player Cobra a speed boost to help escape mass locking.


Reference: HUDs of the different versions

[Cholmondely]

The oolite update of the trusty old viper police ship.

Twice as fast as a cobra mk I, military lasers as standard, fuel injectors by default and a recharge rate one and a third times that of a fer de lance. There's nothing that comes even close to it in the standard game, at least not that travels in packs anyway...

• Why's it there in the first place? (the case for)
  • default player ship is faster than the standard viper (wasn't in elite)
  • oxp ships could be (and often are) faster still
  • needs to be some threat for the fugitive player
  • shield boosters and the like can make the player especially tough

• What's to gain by removing it? (the case against)
  • the viper pursuit was made just fast enough to catch the player cobra, the interceptor isn't needed to replicate the elite environment, give the pursuit injectors by default and they could even inherit the interceptor ship model
  • being faster than all of the standard player ships just resets the bar for oxp design, it doesn't solve the problem - as for the asp, let it outrun them, it has no cargo space and it's injectors will only last so long
  • the oft imagined state of affairs of an overrun police force and a dangerous Ooniverse doesn't really hold up in systems with interceptors (if they don't always outnumber the pirates, they certainly outgun them), the only reason the pirates are there at all in such systems may be that the populator hasn't given the interceptors sufficient time to hunt them all down before the player can torus to the station
  • bounty hunters exist of course and could include the asp - any oxp ships that can outrun it would likely be similarly suited to the role

As long as the player ship can't outrun a hardhead missile (750 or 0.75LM) without injector use then there's a means for it to fear a viper patrol. Give them the military lasers if necessary (or a long range version of the beam laser if that's too much) but IMHO the interceptor just highlights that non-police ship design in the 32nd(?) century is lagging behind significantly. It could be argued that is realistic but I'm not sure it matches the ooniverse described in the blurb on the oolite website.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.

Rightly or wrongly, I get the impression that it's not collapsing any time soon with interceptors around.

As usual, other thoughts welcome.

Response!

I fully agree that the graphic description in the Oolite website introduction is something which the game environment should aim for (and one can always opt for an oxp-modulated alternative if preferred, such as Elite Trader).

But

1) the Viper Interceptors (in the Vanilla game) are also there to deal with Thargoids.

2) As long as the interceptors are expensive so that only the most wealthy states can afford them, then the description (concentrated near a few influential planets,) remains accurate, no?

One would expect the pirates to get clobbered in the wealthy corporates (only the most desperate or foolhardy will try their luck there) but have an increasing dominance in the less stable states, where the regular vipers are increasingly confined to the aegis.


Suggestions

o) keep the interceptors (presuming that they mostly appear in the wealthiest, stablest systems - do we have numbers for this?)

i) minimally increase the chance of vipers getting injectors in the less wealthy states
(maybe there should automatically be just one or two in rich/middle-income states from corporates and multi-govs - but not in Commies & Dictatorships if the state government has OXP forces of its own)

ii) Create an OXP which generates large raiding pirate armadas - not just 6 ships, but say 50? (Do we have the necessary AI to co-ordinate their behaviour? And does such an OXP already exist somewhere? - I've yet to try all the missions and the ships OXPs).

The player-affecting armada raids could be presaged by
1) some GNN newsflashes about damage done to various systems - and
2) overheard scuttlebut in the bar about the need to buy injectors to escape them ("my Great-Aunt Gertrude was pootling about in her Fer-de-Lance Lightspeeder when the Malicious Maynard's Marauders arrived in-system in Sori. They devastated the local shipping, eliminated the vipers and almost nobbled her, but she was able to escape with her fuel injectors. She has since had them gold-plated to say "Thank-You"!")

[Redspear]

Question.

There are some dozen or so versions of Classic Elite.

Can we be sure that the Viper Intercept was not based on one or two of them? There was a Viper Mark 2 in FFE.


On the other hand, Murgh mentioned that Aegidian originally gave the player Cobra a speed boost to help escape mass locking.

I think that the last line there is the most pertinent.
As I tried to explain above, I'd say that we have the viper pursuit with it's (almost) identical speed boost with which to fill that particular niche.

1) the Viper Interceptors (in the Vanilla game) are also there to deal with Thargoids.

2) As long as the interceptors are expensive so that only the most wealthy states can afford them, then the description (concentrated near a few influential planets,) remains accurate, no?

One would expect the pirates to get clobbered in the wealthy corporates (only the most desperate or foolhardy will try their luck there) but have an increasing dominance in the less stable states, where the regular vipers are increasingly confined to the aegis.

1) That's true but outside of witchspace how often do you see thargoids? Do they ever show up in packs? From my limited experience, the answers would be very rarely and never.

2) Is it "a few"? How many systems would have them? Given how far their combat capabilty is in excess of their adversaries I think one might rather expect that their manufacture would considerably exceed their demise; to the extent that all but the poorest sytems would soon reap the rewards of even bank-breaking investment to aquire a squadron or two.

keep the interceptors (presuming that they mostly appear in the wealthiest, stablest systems - do we have numbers for this?)

I don't but they'd certainly be relevant.

The 'armada' idea is interesting (with the caveats as you say) but it occurs to me that it might have things the wrong way around. What I mean by that is it is perhaps the interceptors themselves that are better suited to being an oxp.


Do bounty-hunters typically operate alone?

If so, I'd have thought that they were the better candidates to be granted a military laser. The innocent, play-it-safe, beginner is immune from their attentions and the player centricity of the military laser only being available to the player and police woul be ameliorated somewhat.

A lone hunter, whatever their legal status might be, is much more comparable with the player than is a pirate pack or a police wing.

[Cholmondely]

Sidepoint.

I'm no expert on the myriad varieties of ships. I just know the Viper and the Viper Interceptor which are the only two mentioned in the OoliteRS sheets and the in-game Ship Library/View Ship Specifications (under GalCop Viper/Viper I Interceptor).

Playing with Murgh's Iron Ass oxps (primarily to complement his Lave.oxp which is the same style), I notice a plethora of vipers. His Vol 4 adds in the Viper Tank and the Viper Mk II. And the Galactic Navy & Behemoth OXPs introduce the Navy Viper.

So there is now also a Viper Pursuit!

What is a Viper Pursuit? Where is it from? There is a souped-up version in Cody's Enhanced Vipers.oxp, but that is surely not the original?

Reference:
Vanilla game & Murgh's ShipLibrary.plist entries

Viper: The Viper patrol craft is seen in every system - in greater or lesser numbers - protecting the space lanes and the Cooperative stations. Its design is starting to show its age especially against modern fighter craft, but most criminals will still retreat when confronted by a full patrol wing.

Viper Interceptor: This next generation police fighter has recently been introduced as a replacement for the aging Viper design. Expensive to build and maintain, it is rarely seen except in the richest systems, where it is extremely effective in securing the space lanes against piracy.

Viper Mk.II: The introduction of the Viper Mk.II has lightened some burden of the tiring Viper fleet, improving somewhat on their performance, but are said to be less durable. Inferior to the Interceptor, it is still not a ship to consider an easy mark.

Viper Tank: With the increase of space crime and pirate audacity, the response from Galcop was resolute. The Viper Tank may not be fast nor agile, but its firepower tends to expunge criminals who choose not to flee. (- has turrets!)


OoliteRS summaries

Viper: GALCOP’s mainstay patrol vessel, capable of dealing with the most deadly threat.

Viper Interceptor: GALCOP’s best pilots fly these ships to fight threats of an interstellar scale.

[Redspear]

What is a Viper Pursuit? Where is it from?

Scroll down to Jens' second post here for an explanation of sorts.

And for shipdata evidence (it's in the default game, not oxp):

Code: Select all

"oolite_template_viper-pursuit" = 
	{
		like_ship = "oolite_template_viper";
		is_template = 1;
		max_flight_speed = 360;

[Cholmondely]

Thank you for that. I'll add in a note to the wiki.

[Cholmondely]

Second Sidepoint.

The wiki (Viper (Oolite)) mentions this: Standard fitting is a row of magenta and blue strobe lights, which the crew will illuminate when actively pursuing another craft, or signaling it to stop. All too many commanders try and run when they see the flashing lights - but this usually elicits death by laser from the Viper.

I don't do illegal. Does this actually happen? And will the viper really not attack if the pursued ship stops?

It has been carried over from Winston's original page back in Jan 2006!

[Redspear]

Thank you for that. I'll add in a note to the wiki.

No worries. For a long time it wasn't clear to me whether or not it was a seperate ship or just a scripted change when entering 'pursuit'.

The wiki (Viper (Oolite)) mentions this: Standard fitting is a row of magenta and blue strobe lights, which the crew will illuminate when actively pursuing another craft, or signaling it to stop. All too many commanders try and run when they see the flashing lights - but this usually elicits death by laser from the Viper.

I don't do illegal. Does this actually happen? And will the viper really not attack if the pursued ship stops?

I've never seen that - I suspect it's 'flavour fluff', like the boa page that mentions scooping up an ophidian:

One feature that has caught an inexperienced pirate unawares is that with the engine shut down, the rear of a Boa looks remarkably like the top of an Asp Mk.II. Boa captains have used this to good effect on occasions, the most famous incident being the kidnapping of Ty Lozar, a senior politicial figure of the Tionislan government during the 3020s. His ship, which had an Asp escort dropped out of hyperspace and flew towards the "Asp" which on closer inspection turned out to be a Boa - which turned around and gobbled his small Ophidian Class Yacht in its yawning ram scoop like a shark snapping up a surfer. The Tionislan government refused to pay up, and Lozar was never seen again.

...in other words: entertaining nonsence.

[Cholmondely]

The wiki (Viper (Oolite)) mentions this: Standard fitting is a row of magenta and blue strobe lights, which the crew will illuminate when actively pursuing another craft, or signaling it to stop. All too many commanders try and run when they see the flashing lights - but this usually elicits death by laser from the Viper.

I don't do illegal. Does this actually happen? And will the viper really not attack if the pursued ship stops?

I've never seen that - I suspect it's 'flavour fluff', like the boa page that mentions scooping up an ophidian:

One feature that has caught an inexperienced pirate unawares is that with the engine shut down, the rear of a Boa looks remarkably like the top of an Asp Mk.II. Boa captains have used this to good effect on occasions, the most famous incident being the kidnapping of Ty Lozar, a senior politicial figure of the Tionislan government during the 3020s. His ship, which had an Asp escort dropped out of hyperspace and flew towards the "Asp" which on closer inspection turned out to be a Boa - which turned around and gobbled his small Ophidian Class Yacht in its yawning ram scoop like a shark snapping up a surfer. The Tionislan government refused to pay up, and Lozar was never seen again.

...in other words: entertaining nonsense.

Umm - but we have a range of different scoops in Phkb's Ship Configuration, and it is perfectly possible that Ty Lozar's kidnappers sourced a specially souped-up scoop for the scenario. So I don't expect to be scooped up by every Boa I bump into.

But the Viper blurb does tell me what to expect...

And if it were true, it would add to the immersion.

[Redspear]

Umm - but we have a range of different scoops in Phkb's Ship Configuration, and it is perfectly possible that Ty Lozar's kidnappers sourced a specially souped-up scoop for the scenario. So I don't expect to be scooped up by every Boa I bump into.

According to the wiki, one of these was supposed to scoop up one of these.
Look at the numbers involved and then ask yourself how much sense that makes, even with the largest imaginable scoop fitted.

[Cholmondely]

So, back to the Controversy.

Analysis of Lore:

The Space Traders Flight Training Manual (Classic Elite)

Small, highly maneuverable short range "hunter-killer", the Viper was specifically designed for GalCop Space Policing purposes by Faulcon
Manspace and are built under licence on all Medium Tech worlds. The Viper is a single pilot craft, but can carry up to ten humanoid passengers. It has no cargo space, but has a "tug" capability, and can tow a ship of up to 140,000 MTS mass (including the Cobra Mk 3). This popular ship is also carried by large freighter convoys, for defensive purposes.


Wiki pages (this all seems syncretist to me):

The wiki (Viper Interceptor) tells us: Originally known as Faulcon Manspace and based in Reorte, Faulcon de Lacy won the contract to design a GalCop police ship, and created the Viper, which was to earn the company a large amount of money. The next few years saw a remarkable series of mergers and acquisitions which enabled them to become one of the biggest corporations around. Their recent replacement for the now aging Viper, the Viper Interceptor, could be a big earner.

Reorte is of course a TL6 poor agricultural dictatorship.

According to the wiki (Faulcon de Lacy) Faulcon Manspace merged with de Lacy (Inines - TL13 rich industrial communist) and also gobbled up another 3 shipyards: Paynou, Prossett and Salem, Cowell & MgRath & the Zorgon Petterson Group


Conclusion

One presumes that if all that is true, whatever the planet that the offices are located on, that Faulcon deLacy is very definitely "corporate" in philosophy. And will presumably be dominated by the politics of the corporate states. These might very well decide that they wish their own states to be kept pirate free, and are happy to see the pirates dominate the other states (unless of course, they decide to become a client of one of the corporate states).

I can see an argument that wealthy but confederate Xexedi would be denied Interceptors, but that Ceesxe might provide them for democratic Arazeis and dictatorial Veis which are supposedly dominated by it.

Thus politics would (as expected) impede the widespread take-up of the interceptor in the less stable/poorer states (And one can just imagine the arguments centering about the possible capture of one of these by the pirates in a state "unable to defend its own borders properly"...). GalCop does not have the spare cash to equip every state with Interceptors - that money is needed elsewhere, especially when Ceesxe etc buy their own for their local GalCop squads.

Reference:

Ceesxe - 56,320 MCr - TL15, Corporate
Onrira - 52,800 MCr - TL14, Corporate
Xexedi - 41,760 MCr - TL14, Confederacy
Ensoreus - 45,760 MCr - TL12, Corporate
Zaonce - 41,976 MCr - TL12, Corporate
Tionisla - 37,440 MCr - TL12, Democratic
Vetitice - 28,800 MCr - TL12, Communist
Digebiti - 10,240 MCr - TL8, Feudal
Lave - 7,000 MCr - TL5, Dictatorship
Laenin - 4,608 MCr - TL4, Communist
Riedquat - 1,920 MCr - TL4, Anarchy
Qudira - 768MCr - TL1, Anarchy

[Cholmondely]

Umm - but we have a range of different scoops in Phkb's Ship Configuration, and it is perfectly possible that Ty Lozar's kidnappers sourced a specially souped-up scoop for the scenario. So I don't expect to be scooped up by every Boa I bump into.

According to the wiki, one of these was supposed to scoop up one of these.
Look at the numbers involved and then ask yourself how much sense that makes, even with the largest imaginable scoop fitted.

Fair dibs.

Either the Ophidian was a special miniature version, or the Boa was bigger than usual (both seem unlikely), or the story is a colourful red herring, diverting attention from what really happened.

[Redspear]

Faulcon de Lacy won the contract to design a GalCop police ship, and created the Viper, which was to earn the company a large amount of money.

The original was a contract for a police ship. Is the interceptor a similar contract?
Given that GalCop is clearly the user, it is likely that they are also the buyer and that the contract is with them.

Thus politics would (as expected) impede the widespread take-up of the interceptor in the less stable/poorer states (And one can just imagine the arguments centering about the possible capture of one of these by the pirates in a state "unable to defend its own borders properly"...). GalCop does not have the spare cash to equip every state with Interceptors - that money is needed elsewhere, especially when Ceesxe etc buy their own for their local GalCop squads.

Following my reasoning above, I think it's more a case of which systems GalCop might prioritise to stock with interceptors first (and there's even a case for that being the dangerous systems).

Personally, I think that the game might be better off without the interceptor and instead with more lethal, lone bounty hunters:

Bounty hunters can always be found outside Orbit Space, especially around worlds classified as "dangerous". They are invariably of combat rating: DEADLY or ELITE. Bounty hunters rarely identify themselves to passing ships, and if pestered too closely will usually kill.

Doen't it sound more likely that they'd be equipped with military lasers rather than an entire police squadron?


Re piracy, this is rather interesting I thought:

Around worlds run by autocracies, or clans, pirates will very often have been paid to leave trade ships alone. Piracy is a huge, and complex, business, and any life-respecting trader will learn the tell-tale signs of pirate presence.

Simulating pirates that have been 'paid off' could be an interesting way to counter the populator adding system-raiders...
Change their AI to trader until engaged but with offender status (harrassed by police but not engaged).

So which government types could represent an autocracy or clans? Perhaps most of them given a sufficiently broad interpretation. Gameplay wise it would be most useful if it were the safer systems.

• Corporate - one CEO that oversees it all
• Democracy - just because you were voted in doesn't mean that you couldn't temporarily have autocratic power, or perhaps just have to keep 'the clans' happy
• Confederacy - consider the various states as the clans and maybe so
• Communist - Can a communist leader achieve autocratic power? I'll leave that one for now
• Dictatorship - but of course

[Cholmondely]

Faulcon de Lacy won the contract to design a GalCop police ship, and created the Viper, which was to earn the company a large amount of money.

The original was a contract for a police ship. Is the interceptor a similar contract? a
Given that GalCop is clearly the user, it is likely that they are also the buyer and that the contract is with them.

Thus politics would (as expected) impede the widespread take-up of the interceptor in the less stable/poorer states (And one can just imagine the arguments centering about the possible capture of one of these by the pirates in a state "unable to defend its own borders properly"...). GalCop does not have the spare cash to equip every state with Interceptors - that money is needed elsewhere, especially when Ceesxe etc buy their own for their local GalCop squads.

Following my reasoning above, I think it's more a case of which systems GalCop might prioritise to stock with interceptors first (and there's even a case for that being the dangerous systems). b

Personally, I think that the game might be better off without the interceptor and instead with more lethal, lone bounty hunters:

Bounty hunters can always be found outside Orbit Space, especially around worlds classified as "dangerous". They are invariably of combat rating: DEADLY or ELITE. Bounty hunters rarely identify themselves to passing ships, and if pestered too closely will usually kill.

Doesn't it sound more likely that they'd be equipped with military lasers rather than an entire police squadron? c


Re piracy, this is rather interesting I thought:

Around worlds run by autocracies, or clans, pirates will very often have been paid to leave trade ships alone. Piracy is a huge, and complex, business, and any life-respecting trader will learn the tell-tale signs of pirate presence.

Simulating pirates that have been 'paid off' could be an interesting way to counter the populator adding system-raiders...
Change their AI to trader until engaged but with offender status (harrassed by police but not engaged).

So which government types could represent an autocracy or clans? Perhaps most of them given a sufficiently broad interpretation. Gameplay wise it would be most useful if it were the safer systems.

• Corporate - one CEO that oversees it all
• Democracy - just because you were voted in doesn't mean that you couldn't temporarily have autocratic power, or perhaps just have to keep 'the clans' happy
• Confederacy - consider the various states as the clans and maybe so c
• Communist - Can a communist leader achieve autocratic power? I'll leave that one for now
• Dictatorship - but of course

Immediate thoughts:

a - the quote was taken directly from the Viper Interceptor page. This text dates back to JazHaz in 2010 (copied from the Faulcon deLacy page).

b - What militates against this, in my mind, is the understanding about GalCop built up on this bulletin board and the wiki over the past 20 years. That GalCop is poor and not too influential. That unlike during its heyday, however many decades ago, it now cannot afford to properly fight the pirates and cannot afford to properly fight the Thargoids. And that the various states have become more and more independent. And that the reason that the wealthier states have the better stations and the better police forces is that they can afford to supplement the miserable amount which GalCop would otherwise pay for them.

c - I agree with your stance on bounty hunters (especially since they seem to be mentioned explicity in the Oolite.space blurb). But I also see the Interceptors as playing a role, too. Maybe there should be fewer of them? Have you run cim's Space-sim simulator?

d - Autocracies and Clans (but also see "Piracy" below)

Democracy: You sound as though you read Viscount Hailsham's "Elective Dictatorship".

Confederacy: Cim's excellent Ship's Manual in his Ship's Library has a take favouring your interpretation:

Confederate Worlds

A Confederacy differs from the above. There is a central planetary government which handles external affairs, but internal matters are managed by regional governments. Despite there being separate governments in each region of the world (which can be of differing flavours), from GalCop's perspective they are all essentially the same and follow the lead set by a centralised seat of officials. When confederacies break down, they usually end up as multi-government worlds (see below).

I'd presumed something a bit looser, more along the lines of GalCop itself, actually!

Piracy
One presumes that the pirates would be reasonably organised. That there would be some freelancers (not paid off by the Ceesxe governing corporation), and a range of pirate bands some of whom would take the money and try and raid Ceesxe shipping anyways.

As regards the autocracy/clan argument, I can see all the governments trying to bribe the pirates if they think it makes sense. But the facts on the ground are that we see lots of patrols in Oolite post v.1.80 in the more stable states. They might also pay danegeld. But they are already paying a lot for their interceptors!