Split: Re-scaling experiment

[Cholmondely]

Redspear, please check the latest nightly from here. This undoes one of my earlier modifications, which was basically deliberately fading out the corona effects when approaching the sun. With the latest changes that made sun rendering pretty much the same as v1.90, this fadeout is no longer needed and the effects should be -present even when sun skimming.

I looked at the code changes as listed and they appeared to be the same as in the last git pull I'd done after your recommendation a post or two earlier.
That change however did look better to me but I hope we can one day get back those shimmery effects you'd see at places like Leesti. Thanks.

As might seem obvious there's a dynamic tension between many of these settings (sun size, planet size, lane length etc.) and so I'm exploring which compromises work best and how much leeway they grant. For example, if I load up additional planets oxp then some of the environments I created below break down - as in 'Universe failed'. I can adjust the build or I can adjust the oxp to make it work but I think that doing the former is the more worthwhile.

Planets at x4 is a winner I think. x3 works well except for the smallest planets and anything above x4 is for diminishing returns it seems. I remember now why I went with it before I had to do other things about this time last year.

Currently playing with quite long WP-Planet lanes and shorter Planet-Sun lanes than previous attempts. Both are still longer than in the standard game but each one comes at a cost so it's a case of finding a pleasing trade-off.

For example, there's something to be said for letting the player experience the apparent sun/planet size ratio change significantly upon approach.




The distance from WP to planet might be a bit to far here but clearly the sun is the big thing in the system. Experiencing the planet grow much larger upon approach while the sun remains near constant reinforces that initial impression.




Sun distance is (proportionaly) at x3 here rather than x4 but I think it looks pretty good.

I wonder to what extent this brings one back to Disembodied's comments about having something to do while flying ...

[Redspear]

I wonder to what extent this brings one back to Disembodied's comments about having something to do while flying ...

Not a big fan of the mini-game idea - I'd rather be playing oolite
Perhaps you're imagining that travel times are longer in the build I'm working on. They're not.

[Redspear]

Made a discovery of sorts while testing extra planets.

Texture Limits?

If I want a texture to stick on a planet then it's in game radius must not exceed 46,000 (or so it seems)

If that is true then it may be important to consider the ratios of planets, stars and differences.

Earth has approx x0.1 the radius of Jupiter, which in turn has about x0.1 the radius of the sun.
However, the in game planet is currently 0.01 the size it should be in relation to the station, and that's not being rectified any time soon (not by me anyway...)

Sun radius is often ten times or more bigger than the planet radius according to planetinfo.plist, so that might not be a bad start.
In additional planets oxp for example, gas giants are about three times bigger than the larger planets at 20,000 - that would only allow planets to be scaled up to x2.3. Scaling them up to 2.5 would restrict gas giants to 18,400 (proprtionally - planet size multiplier also applies) which is just under 3 times bigger rather than just over in the case of 20,000.


Gas Dwarfs?

According to wikipedia: A gas dwarf is a gas planet with a rocky core that has accumulated a thick envelope of hydrogen, helium, and other volatiles, having, as a result, a total radius between 1.7 and 3.9 Earth radii (1.7–3.9 REarth). The term is used in a three-tier, metallicity-based classification regime for short-period exoplanets, which also includes the rocky, terrestrial-like planets with less than 1.7 REarth and planets greater than 3.9 REarth, namely ice giants and gas giants.

Greater than 1.7? How about 2?
Earth radius = 6,378, x2 = 12,756
46,000/12,756 = x3.6 safe multipler for planets.

The first multiplier I ever used for planets sizes was 3.3, which cim opined was 'probably about right' in terms of game experience.
I've tried as high as x10 but recently favoured x4, so x3.6 should be no big loss.

Of course it doesn't really matter if the proprortions are accurate or not as they are hardly so elsewhere! But if they are not jarringly so, if the texture doesn't scream 'nonsence, way too small for a gas planet!' then that tends to help.

Once the gas 'giants' were scaled down a bit then, with the greater space lane distance I've been using, only the gas planets were visible from the main sytem planet with all of the others requiring use of planetary compass.


Moon Mechanics

Orbits of planets are deeply problematic but realistically, in an earth type system, only the inner planets would have discernable movement most of the time even upon return visits as how many hundred years does it take pluto to orbit the sun? I've opined before that orbits are best used for moons where there could be a regularly noticeable difference due to simultaneous high visibility.

I've also tried expanding moon orbits and reducing their size (proportionately) and it's going pretty well, pictures to come.

[Redspear]

Fingers crossed, nearly there bar the final tweaks...

Arrival at Teveri




Approaching Gas Giant Dwarf and its Moon (in sights)




External View: about to crash into its Moon

[Cody]

Arrival at Teveri

In another universe, my long-range Cobra MkIII is parked-up at Teveri - has been for a while.

[Cholmondely]

nearly there

Looking jolly impressive!

Well done!!

(what about the AppleMac version?)

[Redspear]

Looking jolly impressive!

Well done!!

(what about the AppleMac version?)

Thanks.

(don't ask me Guv but it's all numbers so it shouldn't be too tricky should it?)


I think I may now know why it sometimes fails to generate a system and othertimes doesn't...

Does anyone know where UNIVERSE_MAX_ENTITIES is set? Not it seems in Universe.h/m nor in Entity.h/m drawable or otherwise

If the system generates just fine sometimes then fingers crossed I won't need to do anything obscene with it but giving it a bit more room could be very helpful.

For example, I made it to Aate just fine (biggest planet in galaxy 1 and just 2km radius short of the biggest anywhere) but launching at Soinuste (radius approx. 2,000km less) from a saved game initially caused a universe failure.

[another_commander]

Does anyone know where UNIVERSE_MAX_ENTITIES is set? Not it seems in Universe.h/m nor in Entity.h/m drawable or otherwise

src/Core/OOtypes.h, line 193.

Code: Select all

enum
{
	UNIVERSE_MAX_ENTITIES	= 2048,
	NO_TARGET				= 0,
	MIN_ENTITY_UID			= 100,
	MAX_ENTITY_UID			= MIN_ENTITY_UID + UNIVERSE_MAX_ENTITIES + 1
};

[Redspear]

src/Core/OOtypes.h, line 193.

Thanks again a_c.


Meanwhile, thinking again on adding planets and the difficulties of simulating a solar system...

After stretching things pretty far in terms of what the base game can cope with, it occurs to me that not only is there some difficulty in simulating a solar system similar to our own but also there's not much point.

Unless travel to the sun is going to be a trivial matter then how long would it take to get to Neptune?



I've started to think of the system as purely reflecting the inner planets with travel elsewhere being prohibitive to anything interesting typically having been placed there by system inhabitants/visitors.

Spara made the decision in Additional Planets to include a max of one gas giant per system and maybe that was pretty smart if we think of perhaps a Jupiter-like planet as just being reachable, especially if theories of it once orbiting nearer to the sun could be correct.

Gas giants (or dwarfs in my case) do look cool so it's nice to keep them but if we thing only in terms of simulating an inner solar system with the possibilty of the odd gas planet then look at the space we save based on the diagram above.

In terms of visiting other planets and what point there might be to that (non-main planets are all oxp after all) then rather than spara's Stations for Extra Planets, I think they make good places to place hoopy casinos, banks of the black monks, constores, astro-mines and the like.
In a more draconian universe, fuel only available from special stations around gas planets; astro-mines orbiting metalic moons; banks of the black monks orbiting their own planet (they can probably afford it one way or another) etc.

There's arguments to place any of them pretty much anywhere but if hoopy casinos for example were so important to be alongside the main station then why aren't they actualy contained within the main station? Perhaps most of the gambilng takes place orbiting a more beautiful but potentially less habitable, nearby planet. With a little thought, whatever reason you like but crucially you're not heading there just for a few extra credits on your trade but to do something different instead.

If passengers occassionally request to be taken to these other planets then you have both a great reason to visit and a potentuially interesting diversion once you get there. All oxp possibilities of course but I need to leave room for them to happen.

[Redspear]

Still thinking about gas 'giants', after investigating this some more I've been able to simulate/fake main planets as outer planets in a solar system.

Screen shots don't always show how well an illusion holds up but here's a shot of leaving a 'standard system' in this build.




Here's a shot of arrival at an 'outer planet' system.

• planetinfo-plist adjustments (in addition to source rescale changes)
  • planet distance x1.25
  • population /25
  • planet radius x1.75
  • sun distance x2.5
  • sun radius /4

Note the very distant star which will remain distant upon approaching the planet.

The sun position above is casting the planet in shadow but that isn't always the case upon arrival at such a system.




These giant planet as outposts are reflected on the f7 screen.




Meanwhile, small planets consequently appear that bit smaller.




I think my initial idea that every 'pure' industrial should be an outer planet is probably a bit too much but were it restricted to rich industrials alone then it might be just frequent enough to be interesting.

Anyway, it works, and in getting it to do so I've been forced to make my source code adjustments a little more robust/forgiving and for that alone it was worth it.

[arquebus]

This is very exciting!

[Redspear]

There are 218 rich industrial systems across the 8 'galaxies'.

Not all outer planets are giants (e.g. Pluto) but none would be traditionally habitable and so all should look different, effectively meaning new textures.

If creating colour variants of each texture then with RGB varieties + YCM + original = 7 per texture. 218 / 7 = 31.14 or 32 original textures required. That would be a bit of work but no more than an evenings worth.

Gas giants/dwarfs would be very rare if restricted to realistic (proportional) sizes = approx 10,850 km radius and larger. Rings, as far as I'm aware (so not very far) are more about moon formation (or lack thereof) at certain distances and so any size limits are more arbitrary. Because that oxp only fakes rings however, the larger the planet, the better they tend to look.

The goal here is to make outer systems distinct yet variable. The distant star does the first part but depending upon its orientation in relation to planet and witchpoint it may be far from obvious. A barren or gas texture however would become obvious upon approach.

So with all of that in mind, here's an imagined set of parameters:

• Rings if radius >= 6000 (and economy = 0)
  Gas planets if radius >= 8000
  Barren if radius < 8000

Approx 2/5 of such planets (87) would then be giants, therefore 32/5 × 2 = approx 13 gas giant textures would be required.

Rings could be made more or less common but I don't think I'd want them to be in every such system. One idea in that regard might be simply to keep the radius requirement as it already is within that oxp and then they can (rarely) occur outside of, as well as occasionally being absent from, the proposed 'outer' systems.

[Cholmondely]

Alas, it looks as though my addiction to apples might prevent my trying this out (due to the re-scaling being exclusively for Windows).

But, gosh! the pictures look superb, and I enjoy the thinking behind it all (Question - will it still be possible to buy computers anywhere?).

Redspear, I've been playing with SWEconomy, but it badly needs tweaking as it's representation of mining planets is poor - lots of minerals for sale but ridiculously low prices for food, etc.

If you can come up with a workable fix for this, I'd love to try incorporating it into my copy of SWEconomy!

And, if you can show me how to do a planet texture, I'd be happy to try and provide a few for you.

[Redspear]

Alas, it looks as though my addiction to apples might prevent my trying this out (due to the re-scaling being exclusively for Windows).

It's not like I know how to program any of this, I just think of stuff and then find the lines of code that look the most promising (or occasionally I'm signposted to them). Not used to doing similar on a mac but if I can do the one then...

This is very exciting!

But, gosh! the pictures look superb, and I enjoy the thinking behind it all (Question - will it still be possible to buy computers anywhere?).

Thanks both.

Re computers, yeah, or at least no less so than in standard oolite. The idea would be that the true industrial powerhouses (rich industrials) would actually be mining/manufacturing outposts, situated for productivity, not for habitability. They'd likely pay the most for agricultural produce as a result. I believe that all of this would be true without requiring any market changes.

Redspear, I've been playing with SWEconomy, but it badly needs tweaking as it's representation of mining planets is poor - lots of minerals for sale but ridiculously low prices for food, etc.

If you can come up with a workable fix for this, I'd love to try incorporating it into my copy of SWEconomy!

Sorry, too much of my own stuff to update right now but if you look at my code breakdown for demand driven economy then you might be able to catch and transfer what you need from that.

And, if you can show me how to do a planet texture, I'd be happy to try and provide a few for you.

My method is to find a relatively small number of public domain textures (preferably not Jupiter clones) and then use Gimp or similar to tweak the colour balance and then save a red version, a blue version, a green version etc.


Dont know how to do this yet but other ideas include to place just one small asteroid field (but large compared to anything in standard oolite) at the witchpoint in some systems with small radius planets so that...

• The player is sure to encounter it (and the system be memorable as a result)
• There is otherwise a lesser entity count and therefore more 'room' (in terms of compting resources)

[Redspear]

Dont know how to do this yet but other ideas include to place just one small asteroid field (but large compared to anything in standard oolite) at the witchpoint in some systems

Getting there...